Jump to content
Attention: In order to reply to messages, create topics, have access to other features of the community you must sign up for an account.
Sign in to follow this  
MTR Admiralty

TTC picks Bombardier to supply streetcars

Recommended Posts

Apr 24, 2009 05:00 PM

Comments on this story (65)

TESS KALINOWSKI

Transportation Reporter

 

In a move bound to have Thunder Bay residents cheering today, the TTC has chosen Montreal-based Bombardier for its billion-dollar streetcar contract.

 

The TTC announced this morning that it has chosen Bombardier's Flexity Outlook car as the base model on which to customize a sleek, new Euro-style ride for Toronto.

 

At least 25 per cent of the car must be made with Canadian parts and labour and Bombardier has said its Thunder Bay plant is ready to roll.

 

Bombardier beat out Siemens Canada — part of a German-based company — for the contract worth between $1.25 billion and $3 billion.

 

The initial order will be for 204 30-metre long cars to replace the TTC's existing 30-year-old fleet of 248 Canadian Light Rail Vehicles (CLRVs) and Articulated Light Rail Vehicles (ALRVs) that run on 11 city routes.

 

The contract will also include an option to build another 364 cars to run on the city's planned Transit City light rail lines into the suburbs.

 

The cars have the capacity to carry about twice as many people as the old version. They will feature an enclosed driver compartment, boarding from all doors and a computerized fare system to accommodate the new fare technology the TTC is likely to introduce in coming years.

 

The first of the cars are scheduled to be in the city for testing in 2011 and will be in service by 2012, TTC officials said.

 

The recommendation to have Bombardier build the cars will go before city councillors on the Toronto Transit Commission for approval Monday.

 

The award follows about two years of controversy. The TTC went to a strictly monitored request for proposals process on the streetcar contract after it awarded the contract for new subway cars to Bombardier in 2006 without negotiating with competing manufacturers.

 

The $710 million deal was designed to support the struggling Thunder Bay economy. But Siemens and some city councillors said it might have robbed Toronto taxpayers of the opportunity to get a better deal on the subway cars.

 

But when the TTC started the RFP process for the streetcars only two companies submitted bids: Bombardier and a small British firm, TRAM Power.

 

The TTC said both bids failed to meet its requirements and suggested that Bombardier's car, versions of which run in cities around the world, wasn't technically able to take Toronto's tight turns.

 

The RFP was cancelled and the TTC went to a negotiated bidding process using the same technical specifications. Bombardier re-entered the race and was joined by Siemens.

 

Chairman Adam Giambrone stressed today that the streetcars represent "the No. 1 ask of the City of Toronto for the (federal) stimulus dollars."

 

"We will be looking to negotiate with Bombardier for a higher Canadian content," Giambrone told reporters, adding that "we have to assume that there may be additional cost" for this.

 

The contract price doesn't include a new maintenance facility required for the larger vehicles, estimated to cost $345 million, which Giambrone suggested would likely be located in the city's port district.

 

"The new LRVs will be low-floor, quieter, have features such as air conditioning for greater customer comfort, and be able to carry almost twice as many people as the TTC's current streetcars do," the commission said.

 

TTC engineering staff – previously worried that Bombardier's vehicles could not negotiate tight turns on the Toronto track network – "is satisfied that Bombardier's proposed car will operate safely in Toronto."

 

The decision on funding faces a June 27 deadline beyond which Bombardier's price is no longer guaranteed.

 

Giambrone observed that the city, province and federal government traditionally split such spending evenly, but "the funding charts often get incredibly complex."

 

Thunder Bay New Democrat MP Bruce Hyer welcomed the announcement, which "will bring some hope to workers that are left behind by the Conservative government."

 

NDP Leader Jack Layton, who represents a Toronto riding, added in a statement that parts for the streetcars will come from various Ontario plants and "now it's time for the federal government to do its part and allow the City of Toronto to use its share of the stimulus package for this project."

 

-with files from The Canadian Press

739d794346a0b2df8cab1ce74599.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

about time... i was on one of the old kawasaki's last summer, they were ok.

i wonder if this had anything to do with Bombardier already due to supply the TTC with 234 new MOVIA metro cars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
about time... i was on one of the old kawasaki's last summer, they were ok.

i wonder if this had anything to do with Bombardier already due to supply the TTC with 234 new MOVIA metro cars.

Not only the deal regarding the new cars, but also the fact that Bombardier is a Canadian company, IINM. If you were them, who would you pick, a domestic company or a foreign company? Bear in mind, Bombardier is doing pretty well, especially in Canada.

Nice, I hope these streetcars are reliable and energy-saving. It looks nice and modern though. Looks like an arctic streetcar or like light-rail. Cool stuff, :)!

They are streetcars as they are barely segregated from traffic. Only 509 and 510 are segregated. 512 St Clair will be segregated soon. It is articulated.

 

Toronto is in the midst of embarking on a capital project to bring light rail lines around the city, called Transit City.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yup, that is what I mean - streetcars. And the 512 St.Clair being segregated is a good idea considering the wideness of the street and how the streetcars can run smoothly via St. Clair Ave..

 

And yeah, I heard about the Transit City in Toronto, it would make Toronto cool, :)!

Transit City will be a lot different IMO. Many lines will have underground segments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Much like Boston's Green Line which has underground segments, on road (articulated and segregrated) segments and on bridges. It'll be a big project but benefitial.

Scarborough RT is included in the project as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That'll be nice, it is almost like a total modfication of current Toronto's TTC, :)!

No, the reason why Scarborough RT is included is because its future is uncertain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah, there is a question lingering on what if the Scarobrough RT collapses or be totally bought by TTC or other reasons whatever the uncertainty is.

It's not about it being structurally weak. It's the deal with the technology. It uses ALRT, similar to SkyTrain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh, that is a good point. Do you mean they are making the technology alike so the S - RT can operate using same technology as the Street Cars or TTC Subway?

They will most likely tear the whole thing down and start from scratch. It could be a LRT line (Transit City standards)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So, they are completely rebuilding the Scarborough RT? That is one of a stunt but it is benefitial for future growth and money saving.

I'll recommend it, as it will make operations easier. SRT track is to standard guage, while all Toronto subways have a smaller gauge. The two can't run on each other. A light rail line would work really well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Plus, the SRT cannot be run on regular railway. So, overall the SRT could benefit from this reconstruction and also newer cars will be implemented into service.

That is correct. Subway construction will be invasive and tough to built. The TTC is already extending the Yonge-Spadina Line, there are already delays and problems. Extending the SRT using EXISTING technology will have an enormous load of problems, because the technology is not capable of handling Mark II cars, the descendant of the Mark I. Plus, the structure requires rehabilitation too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah, so start from scratch and make the SRT a totally new system with new structure, stations, equiptment and tracks which may even make local residents and businesses happy. Also, this'll make operations easier since people who expertise in TTC's existing technology cannot work on the SRT's technology and vice versa. So, it'll make everything easier, cheaper and simpler.

That's what I just said.

There's enough discussion here, we can call lock here.

 

***************DO NO REPLY***************

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
about time... i was on one of the old kawasaki's last summer, they were ok.

i wonder if this had anything to do with Bombardier already due to supply the TTC with 234 new MOVIA metro cars.

Don't mean to revive an old topic, but there isn't much discussion in this part of the forum anyways.

 

We don't have Kawasaki's, the CLRVs and the ALRVs (Articulated cars) are both designed by Hawker Siddeley-Ontario Transportation Development Corporation (Later renamed to UTDC). The first 6 CLRVs were built by SIG, a builder in Switzerland and the rest were built by Hawker. The first 11 ALRVs were built by Can-Car Rail and the rest were built by Hawker-UTDC.

 

 

I'm honestly not a fan of the plan the TTC has for the streetcar replacement. The number of vehicles will be going down, but overall capacity is staying at the same due to longer cars. However that means longer waits and with our winters that's not exactly a good thing. The TTC doesn't even have founding available for these new cars yet, but it should be coming soon. Gotta love transit founding within the province of Ontario.

 

However the current fleet is slowly deteriorating and lacks wheelchair accessibility and has no A/C (Save for 4041 which was retrofitted with A/C). The TTC is already running short on streetcars as it is because there's about 30+ cars at the Hillcrest/Harvey Duncan Shops for major maintenance. As a result when the 512 reopens for complete service, the TTC is considering converting streetcar routes 502/503 and the 511 to bus operation until the fleet shortage is over with.

 

I'll recommend it, as it will make operations easier. SRT track is to standard guage, while all Toronto subways have a smaller gauge. The two can't run on each other. A light rail line would work really well.

Wrong on both counts.

 

TTC subway and Streetcar gauge is wider than standard gauge by 2 3/4 inches at 4' 10 7/8".

 

Also the RT isn't being torn down, the original proposal was to tear it down and extend the Bloor-Danforth Subway, however that was shot down due to immense costs of building subways. The current plan under Move Ontario 2020 is to purchase Mk II cars, completely demolish and rebuild Kennedy Station, extend the platforms at stations that can only currently handle 4 MK I cars, rebuild the curve between Ellesmere and Midland Station so the MK IIs can handle it, extend the line to Malvern Town Center and build a new yard up there as the extension would cut right thru the current yard.

Edited by MT0603
Had more to quote

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They should replace the overhead wires with actual catenaries like the HBLR so the streetcars can run with pantographs. But as for picking Bombardier, the TTC sure knows what they are doing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They should replace the overhead wires with actual catenaries like the HBLR so the streetcars can run with pantographs. But as for picking Bombardier, the TTC sure knows what they are doing!

 

Trolly wire for trolly poll & catenary for pantograph are different, i'm not sure if the collection structure would have to be changed as well. If yes and inexpensively, then sure, if not then no.

 

- A

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Trolly wire for trolly poll & catenary for pantograph are different, i'm not sure if the collection structure would have to be changed as well. If yes and inexpensively, then sure, if not then no.

 

- A

I was referencing to the way they changed it on the Newark City Subway and had the PCCs run with pantographs in their last years in preparation for the Kinki Sharyos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if it is going to come out Kanona plant in upstate NY then nothing good will come of it, they are so far behind on their contracts and have no idea what they are doing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.