M98 Debate

[I Run Trains]

Ok... I really wish this bus was an all day bus and not just rush Hour.

People like Me that Live In Washington Hts. Have a Hard Time Getting To The Eastside and the M98 is the quickest thing we have up here to the east side.

 

In The Morning it takes Me 5 to 10 minutes (If Traffic is Moving on the Harlem River Drive) To get from 178 and st Nick to 125 and Park! BUT when its not running it would take me almost an Hour Via the M101. Not Cool.

Why dont The MTA Put more Buses on this Line?!?!?!

 

The Ridership Will Be there with out a doubt once people uptown finds out it runs all day!. I Never Understood why that Bus dont run all day. Its a very Useful line for washington Hts people to get to the east side Quick!

 

Explain This Please!

[ML111]

Two issues: one is that although the M98 would serve a great purpose during midday, it would not sustain the ridership to have it run at lets say 15-20 minute intervals - as you said, there is the M101 and also the M3, M4 and M5, not to mention the subway lines, also once it gets to 125th Street, the route basically parallels the M101 (which operates at a base headway of 6-8 minutes) as the 3Av/Lex Av Limited - the second issue is that it was specifically designed for rush hour travel only, the reason is two-fold, one the demand for the rush hour, and two the operational scheduling of the route - it takes manpower and money to operate a service, and even more to make it profitable, and it only makes sense financially to operate it during the time it is needed most, the rush - because of the resources they have and also the demand.

 

In other words, funnel everyone onto the M101 because it's a trunk route that serves most of Upper Manhattan and the East Side (in addition to it being one of the busiest routes in the city, and the resources and infrastructure are already in place - swings and run/operator changes occur right on the route because of 100th Street).

[I Run Trains]

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Two issues: one is that although the M98 would serve a great purpose during midday, it would not sustain the ridership to have it run at lets say 15-20 minute intervals - as you said, there is the M101 and also the M3, M4 and M5, not to mention the subway lines, also once it gets to 125th Street, the route basically parallels the M101 (which operates at a base headway of 6-8 minutes) as the 3Av/Lex Av Limited - the second issue is that it was specifically designed for rush hour travel only, the reason is two-fold, one the demand for the rush hour, and two the operational scheduling of the route - it takes manpower and money to operate a service, and even more to make it profitable, and it only makes sense financially to operate it during the time it is needed most, the rush - because of the resources they have and also the demand.

 

In other words, funnel everyone onto the M101 because it's a trunk route that serves most of Upper Manhattan and the East Side (in addition to it being one of the busiest routes in the city, and the resources and infrastructure are already in place - swings and run/operator changes occur right on the route because of 100th Street).

 

I knew that would be a response, but you really believe that if people had a option to get to the east side in 10 to 15 minutes via the M98 Vs 30 minutes to an hour using the M101 that ridership wouldn't pick up? First off riderside is beyond there during rush hour! Oh and for the record we do not have a subway line that will take us straight to the east side. Taking the and we would have to transfer! I deal with this everyday! And on my late days to work i have to leave to same time a I would leave on my regular day at work because the M98 ain't running!

Think about it!

[Shortline Bus]

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I knew that would be a response, but you really believe that if people had a option to get to the east side in 10 to 15 minutes via the M98 Vs 30 minutes to an hour using the M101 that ridership wouldn't pick up? First off riderside is beyond there during rush hour! Oh and for the record we do not have a subway line that will take us straight to the east side. Taking the and we would have to transfer! I deal with this everyday! And on my late days to work i have to leave to same time a I would leave on my regular day at work because the M98 ain't running!

Think about it!

 

I know it's 'express bus' fare but if you near area in or near Inwood between 225th/Marble Hill and Dyckman you can also use the (MTA)bus BXm1 as well.

[engineerboy6561]

My idea for the M98 Limited:

 

1) Create two branches of service north of 179 St:

Branch A would run on the current M98 route to 193 St with an extension to the Cloisters. It would run 6AM-10PM daily and be the primary service branch.

Branch B would continue north on Broadway to Van Cortlandt Park/242 St and run 6AM-10PM weekdays. It would stop at 179 St/Bway, 181 St, 187 St, Bennett Av, Dyckman St, Isham St, 218 St, 220 St, and then local Bx9 stops to 242 St.

During times when both branches are running, alternate the two branches A-B-A-B

 

2) Increase service to 6AM-10PM daily with these headways:

7.5 min rush hours (counting both branches)

10 min middays (counting both branches)

15 min evenings (counting both branches)

30 min weekends

 

3) Extend the M98 southbound to Park Row-City hall via Lexington Av/3 Av/Bowery with stops at 23 St, 14 St, Astor Pl, Houston St, Bayard St, and City Hall.

 

4)Split the M98 so that all Branch A buses come out of 126 St and all Branch B buses come out of KB. Have 126 St swap the M31 to MJQ for that half of the M98.

 

The upshot of this plan is that the M98 could be used by four new groups of riders:

Fort Washington people who work irregular hours

Fort Washington people who work farther downtown

Lower Westchester commuters wanting a two-seat ride to work (take Bee-Line to 242 St and get the M98 there)

Families from northern Washington Heights and southern Inwood trying to get to the East Side.

 

To those people who say that the M98 does not have enough ridership, the M101 can be shortened and diverted to serve 168 St during hours the M98 is running, with a return to the full route at night.

[DOB2RTO]

If MTA has its way, the M98 might go out the door period.........

[MTR Admiralty]

Engineerboy, that's really long IMO. And the M103 covers part of your "southern extension". It is rather superfluous. And City Hall is not the best bus terminal, I wouldn't turn buses there.

[ML111]

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I knew that would be a response, but you really believe that if people had a option to get to the east side in 10 to 15 minutes via the M98 Vs 30 minutes to an hour using the M101 that ridership wouldn't pick up? First off riderside is beyond there during rush hour! Oh and for the record we do not have a subway line that will take us straight to the east side. Taking the and we would have to transfer! I deal with this everyday! And on my late days to work i have to leave to same time a I would leave on my regular day at work because the M98 ain't running!

Think about it!

 

To answer your rant, I did think about it, true you don't have a dedicated subway line that goes to the east side, fact of the matter is look at the routing of the M98 - all Upper Manhattan routes that transverse north-south through the borough serve dual purposes, the M98 replicates the M101 without the dual purpose after it reaches 125th Street - think about it, after 11AM on a weekday, is that service justified? Lex and Third already have three routes, and as unreliable as they are, it would make the M98 just as bad as well - also, think about resources and how much money that would take versus the real benefit....yes it may help in certain cases such as yours, but you are missing the bigger picture and forgetting how bureaucratic the TA is. There is alternative service that is relatively parallel to the M98, sure it takes longer, but again, what is the demand?

 

You should know that a while back, there was a proposal to have a route serve the Heights via one of the trunk lines to terminate on the Upper East Side at 86th, the idea was scrapped because of budget cuts - however, that service was local through Upper Manhattan and served the dual purpose that the M98 misses.

[Shortline Bus]

My idea for the M98 Limited:

 

1) Create two branches of service north of 179 St:

Branch A would run on the current M98 route to 193 St with an extension to the Cloisters. It would run 6AM-10PM daily and be the primary service branch.

Branch B would continue north on Broadway to Van Cortlandt Park/242 St and run 6AM-10PM weekdays. It would stop at 179 St/Bway, 181 St, 187 St, Bennett Av, Dyckman St, Isham St, 218 St, 220 St, and then local Bx9 stops to 242 St.

During times when both branches are running, alternate the two branches A-B-A-B

 

2) Increase service to 6AM-10PM daily with these headways:

7.5 min rush hours (counting both branches)

10 min middays (counting both branches)

15 min evenings (counting both branches)

30 min weekends

 

3) Extend the M98 southbound to Park Row-City hall via Lexington Av/3 Av/Bowery with stops at 23 St, 14 St, Astor Pl, Houston St, Bayard St, and City Hall.

 

4)Split the M98 so that all Branch A buses come out of 126 St and all Branch B buses come out of KB. Have 126 St swap the M31 to MJQ for that half of the M98.

 

The upshot of this plan is that the M98 could be used by four new groups of riders:

Fort Washington people who work irregular hours

Fort Washington people who work farther downtown

Lower Westchester commuters wanting a two-seat ride to work (take Bee-Line to 242 St and get the M98 there)

Families from northern Washington Heights and southern Inwood trying to get to the East Side.

 

To those people who say that the M98 does not have enough ridership, the M101 can be shortened and diverted to serve 168 St during hours the M98 is running, with a return to the full route at night.

 

Young man heard of the Bronx mTA Express Buses BXM3 and BXm1? You would take away riders if you created the M98b branch.

[Forest Glen]

On most days the M98 is an ideal route. However, it's not an express route. With the exception of the Harlem River Drive it doesn't use the highway. It's susceptible to Manhattan traffic. Unless you're going from Washington Heights to the East Side it's quicker to use the subway.

[I Run Trains]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Danger hiptop 4.6; U; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050920)

 

My idea for the M98 Limited:

 

1) Create two branches of service north of 179 St:

Branch A would run on the current M98 route to 193 St with an extension to the Cloisters. It would run 6AM-10PM daily and be the primary service branch.

Branch B would continue north on Broadway to Van Cortlandt Park/242 St and run 6AM-10PM weekdays. It would stop at 179 St/Bway, 181 St, 187 St, Bennett Av, Dyckman St, Isham St, 218 St, 220 St, and then local Bx9 stops to 242 St.

During times when both branches are running, alternate the two branches A-B-A-B

 

2) Increase service to 6AM-10PM daily with these headways:

7.5 min rush hours (counting both branches)

10 min middays (counting both branches)

15 min evenings (counting both branches)

30 min weekends

 

3) Extend the M98 southbound to Park Row-City hall via Lexington Av/3 Av/Bowery with stops at 23 St, 14 St, Astor Pl, Houston St, Bayard St, and City Hall.

 

4)Split the M98 so that all Branch A buses come out of 126 St and all Branch B buses come out of KB. Have 126 St swap the M31 to MJQ for that half of the M98.

 

The upshot of this plan is that the M98 could be used by four new groups of riders:

Fort Washington people who work irregular hours

Fort Washington people who work farther downtown

Lower Westchester commuters wanting a two-seat ride to work (take Bee-Line to 242 St and get the M98 there)

Families from northern Washington Heights and southern Inwood trying to get to the East Side.

 

To those people who say that the M98 does not have enough ridership, the M101 can be shortened and diverted to serve 168 St during hours the M98 is running, with a return to the full route at night.

 

 

................. SMH!. THAT'S A FANTASY ROUTE! NEVER WILL HAPPENED!

[I Run Trains]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Danger hiptop 4.6; U; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050920)

 

To answer your rant, I did think about it, true you don't have a dedicated subway line that goes to the east side, fact of the matter is look at the routing of the M98 - all Upper Manhattan routes that transverse north-south through the borough serve dual purposes, the M98 replicates the M101 without the dual purpose after it reaches 125th Street - think about it, after 11AM on a weekday, is that service justified? Lex and Third already have three routes, and as unreliable as they are, it would make the M98 just as bad as well - also, think about resources and how much money that would take versus the real benefit....yes it may help in certain cases such as yours, but you are missing the bigger picture and forgetting how bureaucratic the TA is. There is alternative service that is relatively parallel to the M98, sure it takes longer, but again, what is the demand?

 

You should know that a while back, there was a proposal to have a route serve the Heights via one of the trunk lines to terminate on the Upper East Side at 86th, the idea was scrapped because of budget cuts - however, that service was local through Upper Manhattan and served the dual purpose that the M98 misses.

 

Damn the TA Budget! No I'm not thinking about that at all!. The TA always crying broke! I think its BS personally! And

What point are you making as far as 3 lines already running on lex and third? I don't get the point.

My point is time! All the extras about the M101, M3, M4 etc coming to the east side. I know that, but it takes toooo long to get there! vs a 10 to 15 minutes ride on the M98. People don't wanna be cramped up on the M101 and M3 for an hour and some change!

Why you think the M98 really starts to get packed at 125 and 3Av? That's the last stop before the highway! Also for those that live in the Heights that work on the east side, its a one seat trip! And its quicker!

My point is TIME!!!!!!

[MTR Admiralty]

engineerboy6561, that plan would make the M98 way too long. The M103 aleady serves City Hall. The M98 at 126, no way. 126 has enough routes as is.

Plus Park Row really messes up bus traffic, IINM. Buses have to move slowly through the security checkpoints. Plus, City Hall is not an adequate terminal. There are a lot of buses terminating/stopping there.

[ML111]

My point with the three lines on 3rd and Lex is to look at the full route of the M98, aside from its primary purpose to serve the residents of Washington Heights and Fort Washington going to work in the rush hour, it doubles as a supplement to the M101 during the AM rush, when there are not as many M101's operating though to Midtown during the rush. Aside from that Upper Manhattan connection, that is the other purpose it serves, the only services that have a 15 minute run before an express run down to another part of the borough are either Limiteds or Express services. The M98, after serving the purpose of connecting Upper Manhattan residents to the East Side, just parallels services already provided on those three lines. If you want somebody to blame for with the lack of direct express or limited services to Upper Manhattan to and from the East Side, you might as well blame the city councilmen and their constituents - because of their complaints that any form of "Limited-stop" service north of 125th Street is "racist and discriminatory", the M101 and the M4, two routes that would have dedicated Limited service, do not - also it is the reason why the M5 is not a full Limited service from 155th uptown. Your point is time, and I understand that, my point is two fold. First, operationally, if the M98 were an all-day Limited service as is, you would need two shifts of drivers being paid regular and time and a half for service rendered instead of one shift of drivers who either make extra work in addition to another piece during the day or operate both ends of the rush with a swing. Either way it saves on manpower and expense. The other reason is the route profile, the service is a one-note only for residents of Fort Washington and the Heights, correct me if I am wrong, but whenever I travel uptown (160s-170s) to visit my friends, most people on the M101 and the M3/4 get off somewhere before 125th - which is the dual purpose of these routes, to serve both customers in Upper Manhattan and customer traveling north-south, in addition to those traveling solely below 96th. The big picture from an operations standpoint is my view.

[I Run Trains]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Danger hiptop 4.6; U; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050920)

 

My point with the three lines on 3rd and Lex is to look at the full route of the M98, aside from its primary purpose to serve the residents of Washington Heights and Fort Washington going to work in the rush hour, it doubles as a supplement to the M101 during the AM rush, when there are not as many M101's operating though to Midtown during the rush. Aside from that Upper Manhattan connection, that is the other purpose it serves, the only services that have a 15 minute run before an express run down to another part of the borough are either Limiteds or Express services. The M98, after serving the purpose of connecting Upper Manhattan residents to the East Side, just parallels services already provided on those three lines. If you want somebody to blame for with the lack of direct express or limited services to Upper Manhattan to and from the East Side, you might as well blame the city councilmen and their constituents - because of their complaints that any form of "Limited-stop" service north of 125th Street is "racist and discriminatory", the M101 and the M4, two routes that would have dedicated Limited service, do not - also it is the reason why the M5 is not a full Limited service from 155th uptown. Your point is time, and I understand that, my point is two fold. First, operationally, if the M98 were an all-day Limited service as is, you would need two shifts of drivers being paid regular and time and a half for service rendered instead of one shift of drivers who either make extra work in addition to another piece during the day or operate both ends of the rush with a swing. Either way it saves on manpower and expense. The other reason is the route profile, the service is a one-note only for residents of Fort Washington and the Heights, correct me if I am wrong, but whenever I travel uptown (160s-170s) to visit my friends, most people on the M101 and the M3/4 get off somewhere before 125th - which is the dual purpose of these routes, to serve both customers in Upper Manhattan and customer traveling north-south, in addition to those traveling solely below 96th. The big picture from an operations standpoint is my view.

 

Maaaaaan. Forget it! Your adding extra details that I already know! At the end of the day the things the MTA do with these routes MAKES NO SENSE!

EXAMPLE!!!!

THEY went and made a M103! But me personally that was dumb! They said the M101/102 was too long when the 102 ain't as long as the 101. So why not just Leave the 102 as it was going to city hall and cut the 101 @ 6st like they did! No they cut both lines short and add another bus line. I thought that was dumb!

Another dumb move that I giess they realize was a waste was when they brung the M18 back and it ran from 193st to 8st with it going on Convent. Then the Cut the M18 short! I just don't understand what they be thinking! Whatever.

They about to mess up the system some more.

I used to say I don't need a car in nyc but at this point I'll be better off with a car with the fare going up and service getting cut!

[I Run Trains]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Danger hiptop 4.6; U; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050920)

 

The creation of the present day M103 was a smart idea. When the M101 used to terminate at City Hall, it was one long route. At the present, you only need one 3rd Avenue/Lexington Avenue route below Cooper Square. The M103 can handle the load by itself.

 

Reread what I said!

I know the 101 was long! They didn't have to shorten the 102 as well. They could have left that as is!. But the my opinion! Everybody will feel different about it! It serves it purpose to some. And means nothing to some!

[engineerboy6561]

My idea for the M98 Limited:

 

1) Create two branches of service north of 179 St:

Branch A would run on the current M98 route to 193 St with an extension to the Cloisters. It would run 6AM-10PM daily and be the primary service branch.

Branch B would continue north on Broadway to Van Cortlandt Park/242 St and run 6AM-10PM weekdays. It would stop at 179 St/Bway, 181 St, 187 St, Bennett Av, Dyckman St, Isham St, 218 St, 220 St, and then local Bx9 stops to 242 St.

During times when both branches are running, alternate the two branches A-B-A-B

 

2) Increase service to 6AM-10PM daily with these headways:

7.5 min rush hours (counting both branches)

10 min middays (counting both branches)

15 min evenings (counting both branches)

30 min weekends

 

3) Extend the M98 southbound to Park Row-City hall via Lexington Av/3 Av/Bowery with stops at 23 St, 14 St, Astor Pl, Houston St, Bayard St, and City Hall.

 

4)Split the M98 so that all Branch A buses come out of 126 St and all Branch B buses come out of KB. Have 126 St swap the M31 to MJQ for that half of the M98.

 

The upshot of this plan is that the M98 could be used by four new groups of riders:

Fort Washington people who work irregular hours

Fort Washington people who work farther downtown

Lower Westchester commuters wanting a two-seat ride to work (take Bee-Line to 242 St and get the M98 there)

Families from northern Washington Heights and southern Inwood trying to get to the East Side.

 

To those people who say that the M98 does not have enough ridership, the M101 can be shortened and diverted to serve 168 St during hours the M98 is running, with a return to the full route at night.

 

Sending the 98 to City Hall would probably not be a good idea, but how about sending it east over the Manhattan Bridge and having it replace the B51 in Brooklyn? I say that this would work because then those drivers who used to work on the B51 would get swapped to the M98 and the split would be mainly between KB and Grand Ave, with buses pulled from 126 St only if there was a sudden bus shortage. The new plan would also allow the M101 to reduce headways to 8-10 minutes during rush and 15-20 during middays, evenings, and weekends. Also, the connection with the M98 and Bx7 would allow the elimination of the Bx20 and the transfer of those drivers to the M98. This then addresses ML111's concern about monetary and manpower costs to the MTA for running the route. As for the idea of the route being a one-note for a highly specialized clientele, simply switch the A and B branches so that the weekdays-only B branch comes out of Fort Washington and the daily A branch serves Washington Heights, Inwood, and the Bronx. This meets yet another service need, as Broadway BADLY needs a limited service above 125 St. Under my proposal, the Bronx branch of the M98 could satisfy that need north of 178-179 Sts and an M4 or M5 Limited could satisfy that need below GWB Bus Terminal.

[MTR Admiralty]

Sending the 98 to City Hall would probably not be a good idea, but how about sending it east over the Manhattan Bridge and having it replace the B51 in Brooklyn? I say that this would work because then those drivers who used to work on the B51 would get swapped to the M98 and the split would be mainly between KB and Grand Ave, with buses pulled from 126 St only if there was a sudden bus shortage. The new plan would also allow the M101 to reduce headways to 8-10 minutes during rush and 15-20 during middays, evenings, and weekends. Also, the connection with the M98 and Bx7 would allow the elimination of the Bx20 and the transfer of those drivers to the M98. This then addresses ML111's concern about monetary and manpower costs to the MTA for running the route. As for the idea of the route being a one-note for a highly specialized clientele, simply switch the A and B branches so that the weekdays-only B branch comes out of Fort Washington and the daily A branch serves Washington Heights, Inwood, and the Bronx. This meets yet another service need, as Broadway BADLY needs a limited service above 125 St. Under my proposal, the Bronx branch of the M98 could satisfy that need north of 178-179 Sts and an M4 or M5 Limited could satisfy that need below GWB Bus Terminal.

That's still too long, IMO.

Sending it to City Hall is a bit long, but sending it to Brooklyn will make the ride even longer. If implemented, there would be a lot of late buses.