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Has anyone else read the M5 specs from SEPTA? There are some interesting details in there.

The M5s will have offset doors, for example, and route-map displays inside (showing the next X stops and which side the doors will open), and destination displays on the front. They haven't decided the seating arrangement yet; they want the manufacturer to propose three different options. But there will be one bicycle area per car. 

Sadly, they will be in married pairs with end doors; I see no mention of open gangways. 

On 1/19/2024 at 7:56 AM, MJHmarc said:

Can’t have platform doors unless all fleet are the same size. 

For the most common type of PSD, yes. But there are other types, such as vertical and adaptable: 

https://www.go-straffic.com/solutions/ground_transportation/psd_vpsd.html?ckattempt=3

https://www.masats.es/en-uk/platform-adaptable-screen-doors/

On 11/21/2023 at 1:56 PM, Ale188 said:

Why the hell would they run two different types of shells on one train?

I can't think of any better way to do the fairest possible side-by-side comparison of the two types. 

On 11/17/2023 at 1:09 PM, mikecintel said:

The first time I put my credit card in it got an error and I thought it is like the Metro Card where you put your credit card in and then take it out and then put your Zip code. That is NOT the case with the OMNY vending machines. After you put the card in "Reading card do not remove" ... Another difference is between the OMNY machine and the Metro Card is it DOES NOT ASK for the ZIP code anymore on the OMNY machine.

Then it's exactly like pretty much any ATM or other payment terminal in the US. They used to read the magnetic stripe; now they read the chip. The card needs to stay in to read the chip. The chip is much more reliable, more secure, and more difficult to duplicate. That's why they don't need the zip code. 

On 10/29/2023 at 1:57 AM, ABOGbrooklyn said:

How severe is the R211 issue?

I'd love to know as well. It's impossible for most of us to say for sure, and it's unlikely the MTA or manufacturer will detail it for the public. 

With that said, it is fun to speculate...

I can imagine a scenario where it's quite simple. People have said oil is leaking. Perhaps there's just a gasket that's poorly manufactured, or poorly designed, and replacing with a new one will fix it. Or it could even be process... something isn't being tightened enough at the factory, etc. 

But there are also a thousand ways it could be more complicated and more difficult to fix. The fact that they're shipping these thinking they're fine, and then they're failing so quickly and so dramatically... to me that indicates either a huge mistake somewhere, or a more complex interaction of things in a way that was difficult to predict and possibly also difficult to diagnose and/or fix. 

On 9/30/2023 at 8:49 AM, Travis Mcnonald said:

WMATA and CTA  both names their trains by number series (ie, #5000s or #7000s).

Exactly what I mean. That would make more sense, (although the MTA might need to move to five digits for that to work well). 

Two things can be true:

1. The MTA has always done it this way. Passenger rolling stock is named by contract number, and those contracts include all kinds of random things like shop equipment. R25 was for "one wheel truing machine". Therefore the numbers have rarely been consecutive (for passenger rolling stock). They were never intended to be. 
2. It is weird how the MTA refers to passenger rolling stock fleets by contract numbers that include things as unrelated as shop equipment. It makes a teensy bit of sense at the time the contract is awarded, then zero sense for the rest of history. In any other system, these would have been the R50 or something. Just look at how every other system in the world names their passenger rolling stock, and the MTA is a complete outlier. 

11 minutes ago, FLX9304 said:

For US Railroads, it’s PTC (Positive Train Control) being installed on all railroads nationwide. CBTC is installed on subway tracks only. Every country’s railways are different from one another. (But that’s for another topic). 

Right, and there was a similar situation in England. But they decided they needed 30 tph in CrossRail, and ETCS (their equivalent of PTC, I think) wasn't going to cut it. So they got creative and found a way to use CBTC. Now maybe the FRA would just never go for it. But if some transit agency here decided they really needed that, (Amtrak & NJT with the Hudson Tunnels, for example,) one would hope the FRA would consider some way to work with them on that. 

13 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

 does not operate as a subway. It operates as a rr. So if you’re looking to put CBTC on their tracks, you better come with $3B and tear tracks from end to end. 

Not sure this is 100% the same, but FWIW there are ways to put CBTC on a RR. I believe that was one of the more interesting things they did with CrossRail (Elizabeth Line) in London. 

18 hours ago, Ale188 said:

Nah.Philly slang. We don’t use it much but we still use it. I hear a lot of Philly peeps say it. I did forget what it meant until the man told me.

I've lived in Philly for almost 20 years and literally never heard that once.  I think you, or someone you know, misheard "droves". No worries. Easy mistake to make. 

1 hour ago, FLX9304 said:

When I say “drones” I mean “as in quickness” 

Huh? Makes less sense to me. I assumed it was a typo and you meant "droves". 

Exactly. The benefits of open gangways have been proven all over the world for decades. Is has been the standard for quite some time everywhere but here. All I hear are lazy excuses, which is really sad for a city that wants to think it's the greatest in the world. 

4 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

These trains are slated to retire once an order of B-Vs, BSL’s NTTs arrive, which is hopefully next 2 years. 

This is the first I've heard of it. Source? The B-IVs may be old as dirt, but they still seem to run quite well. I wouldn't be surprised if SEPTA replaced the M4s before the B-IVs. 

...and how are we defining NTT here? AC traction? 

1 hour ago, R32 3838 said:

With the feds finally giving the green light for congestion pricing, At any given moment Option Order II is a lock and the money coming from congestion pricing will fund the next new orders (R262/268)

I reeeaaally hope the MTA waits until they can properly evaluate open gangways using the new test trains before placing any new train orders. Otherwise this whole experiment in open gangways will have been for nothing. (I think they should have waited before placing option order 1, but whatever.) 

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Slightly off-topic, but what's with this disclaimer I keep seeing everywhere? Tech & Transit and DJH also put the same thing, clearly if we see a fence then it was taken from a public area, unless there was an incident I don't know about?

I can imagine two reasons. Without that disclaimer, someone seeing the photos might assume the photographer trespassed to get them. (They don't all always have visible fence like that.) So: 

1. If the viewer was an MTA employee or police officer, they might assume the photos were evidence of the crime of trespassing and take action that could be turn into quite a hassle for the photographer. Best to avoid that just in case. 

2. If the viewer were some stupid kid looking for stupid sh-t to do (as kids often do) it might inspire them to trespass. Better to set a good example by not trespassing, and to make that clear to everyone. 

15 hours ago, RandomRider0101 said:

The only way to make the windows larger is to take away a set of doors from each car, which would defeat the whole purpose of making the doors larger in the first place. Until they start putting plug doors on the trains, this is the only real option we have.

No matter what the MTA does or tries to do, someone will always be unhappy & unsatisfied. Personally, I'm just glad we have new cars on the way to replace all the old 1970s equipment.

Plug doors are indeed the best answer. But there are several things they could do without doing that. 

The easiest is to simply remove the outer side displays from the windows and put them above the windows (like WMATA and many other systems do), or between the windows and the doors. Those LED panels are available in thin (even flexible) sheets, so they don't have to take up any real thickness; there's no reason they can't overlap with the door pockets. 

The doors could also have larger windows. In Berlin, some of the trains have doors with almost floor-to-ceiling windows. 

I also think they could simply make all of the windows larger if that was any kind of priority for them. The tolerances seem ridiculous. It looks like they design newer trains with all kinds of extra buffer space between parts for... reasons? I don't know if it's over-engineering or lazy engineering, but there are definitely better ways to design it. 

18 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

So… the order hath come down from on high….

 

we’re not supposed to use the CCTV system unless explicitly told to do so by supervison.

 

that was obviously going to happen but it does beg the question… why put it where it will be easy for us to use in the first place? Why give it an entire screen on the console? 

What is the rationale? To keep you from getting distracted? I can imagine a lot of not-uncommon situations where it would be helpful to have those eyes throughout the train. 

2 hours ago, foggymetro said:

Uh, does the 30-day revenue service acceptance test clock reset? This is a bit early, but someone posted a video of the R211A moving while doors are currently open, on 3/20/23, but taken 3/17/23. I assume not because some trains do this due to incline tracks/brakes, or maybe i'm wrong. I don't know.

If it was due to a technical glitch, yes. If it was operator error, I would guess not. Or if it was out of service, (I haven't seen the video,) I suppose it could have even been intentional. 

17 hours ago, Vulturious said:

Stealing this joke from someone:
The R211A's are now officially U.S. Citizens

How completely unnecessary. The trains don't need to be "patriotic". It's just more visual clutter mucking up the look. Sigh. 

On 2/20/2023 at 2:17 AM, ABOGbrooklyn said:

They should be testing multiple sets at once in my opinion. I get that they do burn in and I know more are being manufactured, but test multiple to speed up the process.

Perhaps there is confusion around what type of testing this is and the point of it. 

The point of the current testing is to test this train type, since this is a whole new model of train. And of course there are actually multiple variants of this model, which is why the MTA is currently getting one of each to test. They are looking for design issues. They are also looking for manufacturing defects, but mainly for ones that could indicate a flaw in the manufacturing process. 

The point is not to test each car for one-off manufacturing defects. That is a different type of testing that will come later in the process. 

So for the current type of testing, they only need one of each type. Multiple sets would only complicate this testing process. 

On 2/19/2023 at 10:59 PM, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

I'm (probably) going away to college next year; it'd be really sad if the R211s aren't even out by the time I start college.

I hear you! I moved away last month. I've been keeping tabs on these so closely, so I was really hoping there would at least be an opportunity to ride these during revenue testing before I moved. Oh well. 

33 minutes ago, ABOGbrooklyn said:

Why only one set of 10 car R211A? They should have more sets available since this will be the main car to replace the R46. Smh

It's standard procurement process to accept just one train for testing and fully test it before accepting additional trains. That doesn't mean more trains aren't being manufactured, it's just an issue of when they're delivered. The point of testing is to find and fix issues, and those issues may be in design or quality control. There's always something that needs tweaking. Then the manufacturer needs to address those issues on all of the trains already manufactured. So it's better that most of the trains are still at the factory instead of on MTA property. 

In terms of ridership vs. signal age when deciding CBTC upgrades, the priority was ridership (certain lines being at capacity). The pandemic changed that. Now it's the reliability of older signals. The MTA has been very public and clear about this change in priority: 

https://original.newsbreak.com/@mystictransit-1594639/2697823263217-mta-announces-more-lines-to-get-upgraded-signaling-technology

11 hours ago, Vulturious said:

3rd unit finally ran under it's own power going to ENY. Two different shell designs, guess that's why the base order has two full train sets of R211T's.

Oh wow. I don't know how I missed the two different gangway designs. Thanks for pointing this out! Fascinating. 

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Anyone else think that the interior R211 next stop sign is ugly and small? They should have kept that part the same as the the previous NTT’s or made the route bullet LCD with the rest being LED.

Looking at some of these YouTube videos they can’t even fit basic station names like KINGSBRIDGE RD without going over two slides.

Agreed. I mean, in terms of physical size, I think it's very large and easy to read, which is good. But yes, it doesn't have enough resolution and/or size to fit enough text. The same goes for the outside displays on the sides. It's neither difficult nor expensive to design these differently so they fit more text. I really don't understand these decisions. 

2 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Slightly off topic, but does the R211 facelift gonna be for the next few car gens? It seems like the dark-navy blue and yellow are the new colors of the subway fleet, and while that's fine on the outside, I'm not a big fan of the R211's from what I've seen; the R143, R160, and R179 feel much airer and lighter yet have held up pretty well.

I agree. I'm not a fan of the blue-yellow and not convinced it will hold up well over the years. The more stainless steel, the better, if you ask me. I want it to look bright and clean for as long as possible. 

14 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I’ve been thinking the same thing. There hasn’t been much update in regards to the R211 fleet for a while yet it’s like some keep beating a dead horse with the same talk about potential assignments. At this point it is best to wait and see what happens because realistic y’all keep going in circles. Let’s not fill up 5 more pages of this thread with speculated fleet assignments when the R211 haven’t even started in service testing yet. 

Thank you! THIS x 1000! There are plenty of other threads to discuss assignments, something I personally care nothing about. Can we please keep this thread focused on the actual rolling stock?