mrsman

On 7/21/2023 at 3:09 PM, Wallyhorse said:

As noted before:

If I were going to do ANY new connection, it would be from Queens AND I would have it come across 79th Street with the first Manhattan stop at York-1st Avenues on 79th, which covers a gap in the SAS in what is arguably one of the most densely populated areas of the entire country (and with more high-rises in the future, likely to become worse in that regard).  You could make this part of your planned 3rd Avenue Subway that could then run on 3rd with a stop at 76th-79th Street before turning on 79th, then 60th-63rd that would likely be the busiest station on the entire such line with transfers on such a line at 60th Street for the  and 63rd for the  and 53rd for the , then 42nd for the  with other stops at 34th, 23rd, 14th (transfer to ) and then to lower Manhattan along the old 3rd Avenue EL route to Chatham Square (transfer to ) .  As others have noted, I don't know if a connection from New Jersey is possible, but if it is, then I would do it as you noted as much as possible, however, I would have the SAS connection I previously proposed with perhaps your new line running on Amsterdam Avenue to 110th Street and then stopping on 110/Frederick Douglas Boulevard and then as you mentioned except I would have this line go across 86th to a stop at 3rd/Lexington Avenues (transfer to ) and then stop otherwise as noted.

A 3rd Ave subway with a stop at 60th-63rd would be a huge improvement for transit connections basically connecting all of the Upper East Side and good parts of Queens all in one station.  The 3rd Ave platform would provide an in-system transfer between the 59th street station on the  (and its connections to the Broadway trains that head to Queens via 60th street) and the 63rd street station that currently provides connections to  (63rd street tunnel to Queens and the connection to SAS.

The question becomes how to route such a line so that it makes sense, what to connect it to, and how to possibly reroute some of the existing B division trains in the area to limit unnecessary congestion due to interlining.

I agree that 3rd Ave is a better corridor than 2nd to provide all of the transfers at 60th-63rd as well as meeting the other nearby crosstown services (namely the  and ) that hit this part of Midtown.

So I would hve the   and trains servicing the upper parts of 2nd Ave.    should go west on 125th street and terminate at Broadway providing a 125th street crosstown service.   should continue straight north into the Bronx, following Bronx's Third Ave to Fordham Plaza (and providing transfers to  and  in the Bronx).

South of 72nd,  and should use 68th street to shift over from 2nd Ave to 3rd Ave and then continue south on 3rd Ave with stops at 60th-63rd, 51st-54th, 42nd, This will provide  and with better connections to all subways serving East Midtown.   The subway will follow 3rd to 34th (stop at 2nd/34th), and then follow 1st Ave southward to the East Village.   will make its way back towards the Grand St station and follow Bowery/St James/Pearl/Water to Hanover Square and then connect with the Montague tunnel to follow existing trackage (4th Ave local and West End line) to Coney Island.   will merge with north  of Delancey and supplement Culver line service to at least Church Ave.

 and  trains will provide service along the QBL local lines from Forest Hills, connect to the 63rd street tunnel, and thence to the Broadway express.   and  will continue existing routings in Brooklyn, N to Sea Beach and Q to Brighton local.

 will service the Astoria line, 60th street tunnel, and Broadway local trains.  [Some trains may originate/terminate at Queensboro Plaza (uitlizing the middle Astoria track for turning) and/or Whitehall to increase service in Manhattan.]  Trains will continue into Brooklyn following the 4th Ave local and the West End line to Bay Parkway (and serviced by Coney Island Yard).

 are largely the same, except that trains in Brooklyn will utilize a switch (to be added) to shift from the 4th Ave express to the 4th Ave local tracks south of 36th street. and terminate in Bay Ridge.  The Bay Ridge trains will be service by the Concourse Yard.

 and  are largely the same in Queens.  will follow 53rd street tunnel to 6th Ave local and continue to Culver.   will originate at 57th/6th and provide service on the 6th Ave local and to the Myrtle Ave line.   will terminate at WTC.

From the perspective of portals, this better utilizes trackage to service trains to the CBD.  All B division East River tunnels are better utilized.

Northern portals:

CPW express:  

CPW local:  

SAS:  

53rd:  

60th:  

63rd:  

Trunk lines:

3rd Ave: TU;  Broadway: NQ express, R local; 6th Ave: BD express, FM local; 8th Ave: A express, CE local

Southern portals:

Manhattan Bridge:  B-D-N-Q

Williamsburg Bridge: M-J-Z

Montague Tunnel: R-T

Rutgers Tunnel: F-U

Cranberry Tunnel: A-C

On 6/23/2023 at 5:45 PM, CenSin said:

For a much lower cost and increased flexibility, would it not be much cheaper to just install switches north of 57 Street–7 Avenue? A lot less excavation (if any) and the SAS-Broadway connection is no longer locked to a particular pair of tracks.

Even better idea!

If there was a way to rebuild the Broadway BMT to allow the locals to reach 2nd Ave and allowing the expresses to reach 60th street, without interfering with each other, much of the current problem of the line can be resolved.

Astoria - 60th - Broadway express - Brighton

71/Continental - QBL local - 60th - Broadway express - Sea Beach 

 SAS - Broadway local - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge

The SAS line would need to be extended to reach CPW with track connections to allow for yard access to the Concourse Yard.

9 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I'd retain the  as the second 4th Ave local and turn the  at Whitehall. Then there would be no need for the  to use Prince St, which was just as bad as 34th St, when the  switched at Prince during the bad old days of 2010-16. Maybe look at some way to reconfigure the switches north of 57th, so  trains can switch for the 60th St at a faster speed with minimal delay.

And hey presto, there's your split  service! The  in Queens and Manhattan and the  in Brooklyn.

In other words, 

 96th - Broadway express - 4th Ave express - Sea Beach

 Astoria - 60th - Broadway local - Montague Tunnel - 4th Ave local - 9th Ave stop on West End line (and access to CI Yard as needed)

 71/Continental - QBL local -- 60th - Broadway local - Whitehall

 Broadway Junction - Broadway Brooklyn local - Nassau - Montague Tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge 

This seems very good way of providing the split service while keeping the Broadway BMT moving.

^^^^^

Another possibility would maintain the switch from local to express near Herald Square, that I loathe, but streamlines the service a little bit to make the merges easier.

Jamaica Center - Broadway Junction - directional AM/PM express between Bwy Jct and Marcy - Nassau - Broad St.  So it will be a directional express to Manhattan from 6 am - 12 noon, away from Manhattan 1 pm - 8 pm, and local in the reverse direction. 

Broadway Junction - Broadway Brooklyn local - Nassau - Montague Tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge  

No changes 

No changes 

 Astoria - 60th - Broadway local/express* - Manhattan Bridge - 4th Ave express - Sea Beach 

71/Continental - QBL local -- 60th - Broadway local - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - West End line to 9th Ave 

 Eliminated

* Query whether it would be better to have the merge between local and express occurring at 34th or just south of Prince.  The movement is always disruptive, but if the movement occurred at Prince, it would provide more service to the local stations on the Broadway BMT.

On 6/16/2023 at 4:22 PM, Wallyhorse said:

The idea of moving the to Nassau came from politicians in Bay Ridge wanting the  to be split because of all the problems it has had in Brooklyn.  I would reassemble what used to be at Canal if necessary so the  can terminate there on the Nassau line (and likely at Chambers for the  most of the time) to appease said pols and bake that into the budget.  Keep in mind, the kind of terminal I would be doing for a Nassau  ending at Canal (on weekdays, late nights and weekends this  would be extended to Metropolitan Avenue to absorb the night and weekend shuttles) was not possible until the work that was done to consolidate the tracks on the Nassau line at Canal and Bowery so they could abandon the northbound platforms at Canal and Bowery was finished (and this  would be based out of East New York so there also would be in-service yard runs from and to Broadway Junction on the ).   Work would be needed to bring the northbound platforms at Canal and Bowery up to snuff (including rebuilding the former entrance to Canal on the east side of Nassau on the ) but to me its worth it because you also are removing the  from the Broadway line and putting it on Nassau while the can become a 19/7 line to 71st-Continental and the possibly supplemented by a new "Yellow " that runs from 9th Avenue on the to Astoria via the tunnel and lower Manhattan to keep that connection to the Broadway line from Montague.   

This idea deserves a comment.  I think there is some merit to exploring  service, but it does seem like Canal may not be the best place for a terminal.

What about rearranging Broadway-Brooklyn service to accommodate Bay Ridge?  Make the  service as part of the  :  Rush hour and mid-day service:

 Jamaica Center - Broadway Junction - directional AM/PM express between Bwy Jct and Marcy - Nassau - Broad St.  So it will be a directional express to Manhattan from 6 am - 12 noon, away from Manhattan 1 pm - 8 pm, and local in the reverse direction.

Broadway Junction - Broadway Brooklyn local - Nassau - Montague Tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge 

 No changes

 No changes

 96th/2nd - Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge - 4th Ave express - Sea Beach

 71/Continental - QBL local -- 60th - Broadway local - Whitehall

 Astoria  - 60th - Broadway local - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - West End line to 9th Ave - (CI Yard Access). 

3 hours ago, Calvin said:

The portion of the  is reduced as to Monday, June 26th, 2023 up to January 2024, there will be express peak service between Mets-Willets Point and 74 St- Broadway. It's entirely local both AM and PM rush between Queensboro Plaza and said station, 74 St. Due to station work at Woodside-61 St, the middle track is mostly not used. 

3 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

At that point it should just be the  local only

Agreed.  Too much mixing without much benefit.  Run a consistent and frequent local service until January.

22 hours ago, Calvin said:

* There's a passenger altercation at Myrtle Av-Broadway.  trains to Metropolitan Av are running on the Express track at that time where the  runs on the middle track, from Marcy Av to said station (Mytrle Av-Bway).  

* trains are running with heavy delays in both directions because of a subway surfing incident at Bushwick Av- Aberdeen St 

 - There will be no L train service between Myrtle Av and Atlantic Av stops.

- Trains will only run between 8 Av and Myrtle-Wyckoff Avs and Atlantic Av to/from Canarsie-Rockaway Parkway. 

I can't understand why the subway surfing is continuing.  Sheesh!

^^^^^

If the "Canal flip" were implemented, the above can be handled even better.

"Canal flip" basically routes the Broadway express to Montague tunnel and Broadway local to the Manhattan Bridge.  It is not a small project, but it has been looked at as a way to provide express service from SAS to the Broadway express to Lower Manhattan.

All of the above is the same, except for:

125th - SAS in Upper East Side - Broadway Express - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge

Astoria - 60th St - Broadway local - Manhattan Bridge - 4 Ave express - Sea Beach  

  71/Continental - QBL local - 60th - Broadway local - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton local  

On 6/11/2023 at 9:37 PM, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

I generally like your idea, but one main issue I see is how you could actually get the  on 4 minute headways and at regular enough intervals to adequately serve as a QBLVD express (and likely the busier of the 2 QBLVD expresses). DeKalb junction as is really limits this, so for your plan to work you either have to remove a service from DeKalb junction, reconstruct it, or have another service supplement QBLVD express.

Thanks.

THe idea presented was meant to preserve the lines in Brooklyn running as they do now, especially the pre-SAS phase 3 plan.  I am a proponent of more deinterlining, including deinterlining the DeKalb junction, but that is not strictly necessary to get better Broadway service now.  My idea is simply to reroute to  96th, to avoid the merging along the Broadway BMT and then doing my best within existing system constraints to preserve Astoria service and QBL local service.  One key problem is that (i believe) only 21 TPH can run through the lower Manhattan portion of the Broadway local (due to the tight turns) so conceivably, once can run 14 TPH trains to preserve existing frequencies to Astoria and improve frequencies along 4th Ave local.  This means 7 TPH for the  serving as the qBL- Broadway link.  As Forest Hills is also limited to 20 or 21 TPH, this leaves the balance of QBL local service to be served by 14 TPH  service.  A slight decrease in QBL local - Broadway trains that is met with a slight increase in QBL local - 6th Ave trains to maintain the frequency along QBL local route. 

A lot more changes, of course, for the SAS era, but I thought it was very important to somehow produce more trains on the SAS below 63rd, which means trains coming from Queens, so the can no longer run to 96th, allowing for all the other changes as noted.  Of course, on top of everything we can have both  and serve Brighton [leaving  and  to 4th Ave] or vice versa, thereby eliminating the DeKalb bottleneck, but that is not strictly necesssary for the discussion.  I do agree that the deinterlining would allow for even more trains to flow on hte Broadway express and 6th Ave express lines.

On 6/12/2023 at 10:08 AM, Chris89292 said:

Here we go again with the exaggerating subway fantasy plans, changing terminals of the  is impossible, QBL is fine the way it is, it need a bit of rework, but that doesn’t mean deleting the  of the branch 

The rework is done to accommodate more service on SAS.  Given the design of the exiting SAS above 63rd, the only way that a full service south of 63rd can be accomplished would be if at least one of the QBL services served SAS.  Here is another alternative, but I feel is somewhat worse, since it has more interlining than my earlier proposal:

125th - SAS in Upper East Side - Broadway Express - Brighton local 

125th - SAS - Hanover Sq 

Jamaica Center - QBL express - 53rd - 8th Ave local - WTC

179th Street - QBL express - 53rd - 6th Ave local - Culver 

Astoria - 60th St - Broadway local/express- 4 Ave express - Sea Beach 

eliminated 

57/6Av - 6 Av local - Williamsburg Bridge - Myrtle - Metropolitan Ave

71/Continental - QBL local - 60th - Broadway local - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge 

71/Continental - QBL local - 63rd - SAS - Hanover Sq

I definitely see as a short term measure, improvements in deinterlining Broadway would be very helpful.  A slight adjustment to the service pattersn could produce the following:

 96/2 Av - Broadway Express - Brighton local [current pattern]

 96/2 Av - Broadway Express - 4 Ave express - Sea Beach

 71/Continental - QBL local - 60th st - Broadway local - Whitehall

 Astoria - 60th St - Broadway local - 4 Ave local - Bay Ridge

Then, as we explore the idea of SAS Phase three and the need to accommodate more trains.  SAS connections to Queens are absolutely essential to make sure that full capacity is used in the new subway

 125th - SAS in Upper East Side - Broadway Express - Brighton local

 125th - SAS - Hanover Sq

Jamaica Center - QBL express - 63rd - SAS south of 63rd - Hanover Sq

 179th Street - QBL express - 63rd - Broadway Express - 4 Ave express - Sea Beach

 Astoria - 60th St - Broadway local - 4 Ave local - Bay Ridge

eliminated

 57/6Av - 6 Av local - Williamsburg Bridge - Myrtle - Metropolitan Ave

 71/Continental - QBL local - 53rd - 8th Ave local - WTC

 71/Continental - QBL local - 53rd - 6th Ave local - Culver

So what is going on?  Utilizing the expansion of the SAS subway south of 63rd as a relief valve for teh QBL in order to ensure that the capacity of SAS is fully utilized, QBL is deinterlined to maximize the number of trains, and maintain a decent level of deinterlinign on Broadway as well.  So route all QBL expresses to 63rd and all QBL locals to 53rd.  53rd has the connections to 8th Ave and 6th Ave which can service the  and  trains.  trains will still have access to 6th Ave but will no longer access 6th Ave and will terminate at 57th/6th and that will be set up as a terminal in normal service.

THe QBL expresses will be connected to 63rd which will have access to both Broadway and SAS.  [There is also access to 6th Ave but it won't be used. Broadway needs more service to accommodate more traffic to Brighton and Sea Beach.]  Conceptually, this means that Upper East Side and QBL express both have access to SAS and Broadway express.  Technically,  goes directly on SAS,  goes directly on 63rd, and and trains will be used as go betweens between the two corridors.  As trains leave upper SAS to go to 63rd, it leaves some capacity for trains to go from Queens to lower SAS and vice versa.  [The geometry is a little difficult, but it is functionally similar to the existing BDNQ interactions north of DeKalb.  BD from 6th and NQ from Broadway carefully intermingle to lead to BQ to Brighton adn DN to 4th Ave.]    

And why should the QBL local go to 53rd and the express to 63rd?  The other way around is propbaly easier to understand as we are continuing the basic historic patterns of E and F trains as expresses.  But I think there is a great value in allowing the local QBL stations to have access to Long Island City, so they need to maintain the connection to 53rd.  This forces E and F to be QBL locals, and the other trains (leading to Broadway and SAS) as expresses.

So and will emanate from 125th Street (and northern extensions of SAS).  

 will service QBL, the first two express, the last two local.  QBL will have a direct train to every BMT/IND Manhattan trunk line.

 will be an isloated deinterlined local line from Astoria to Bay Ridge, where out of service trains will merge with the N line to reach the Coney Island Yards as necessary.

 will still provide the popular connection between Williamsurg Bridge and midtown on 6th Ave, but will not longer continue into the QBL line.

I am happy to present my latest plan that is meant to separate different trains at the worst merger points, but still keeping many of the familiar travel patterns available.

Sorry, no maps, but hopefully, this can lead to a fruitful discussion. Here is the regular daytime and rush hour services for trains on 8th Ave, 6th Ave, and Broadway.

168th St Washington Heights - CPW/8th Ave local - W4 switches - Houston St - Rutgers Tunnel- Culver line 

Bedford Park Blvd - Concourse/CPW/8th Ave local - W4 switches - Houston St - Williamsburg Bridge - Myrtle Ave line to Metropolitan Ave. [During non-rush hours, service starts at 145th Street.] 

Jamaica Center - QBL express - 53rd street tunnel - 8th Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton express - Far Rockaway 

179 St - Hillside/QBL express - 53rd street tunnel - 8th Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton express - Lefferts 

179 St - Hillside local - QBL express - 53rd street tunnel - 8th Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton local - Euclid 

The above service pattern separates 8th Ave trains from each other. The three express services are fully deinterlined, every one of those trains runs identically between Forest Hills and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. This allows for maximum throughput on two of the busiest sections of track, QBL express and the Fulton line in Brooklyn. All 8th Ave trains service the 50th street station. The 8th Ave locals still partially interline with the 6th Ave trains in upper Manhattan and with either or   trains in Brooklyn.  

207 St - CPW/6th Ave express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton express 

205 St - Concourse line (express in rush hour) - CPW/6th Ave express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton local 

96 St - 2nd Ave - Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge - 4th Ave express - Sea Beach 

96 St - 2nd Ave - Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge - 4th Ave express - West End 

The above service pattern keeps the 6th Ave express trains completely separate from other trains between 145th St and Coney Island. It maintains that both the Inwood branch and the Concourse branch each have an express and a local service down CPW. While it does restrict all CPW expresses to 6th and all CPW locals to 8th, this allows for a greater amount of trains to flow through Columbus Circle and at CC, there is the ability to make a cross platform transfer, if needed.

The Broadway express trains are fully separated from other train services. The service pattern also fully separates 6th and Broadway trains at DeKalb. While there is no easy transfer between 6th-Brighton and Broadway-4th trains, most passengers won't need to transfer since the two sets of trains are only an avenue apart in all of Midtown. Any 4th Ave passenger needing the Upper West side or any Brighton passenger needing the Upper East Side could transfer at Herald Square.

Forest Hills - QBL local - 63rd tunnel - 6th Ave local - W4 switches - WTC 

Astoria - 60th tunnel - Broadway local - Montague Tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge 

Forest Hills - QBL local - 60th tunnel - Broadway local - Whitehall 

and provide the local counterpart for 6th Ave and Broadway trains. provides a hybrid service supplementing the in Queens and the in Manhattan. is necessary to provide QBL local riders with access to Queens Plaza (and Long Island City) and direct access to Broadway. These three tains do interline with each other, but with no other trains in the system. It allows for partial interlining here, in order to keep the express trains mostly separated.      

The W4 switches, as utilized, completely separate 8th Ave and 6th Ave locals from each other, despite the new service pattern. The reason I utilize it is becuase it will allow for more service given the hybrid trains. There would be a lot less Culver and Myrtle if and had to share Forest Hills with trains, then if I connect Culver and Myrtle service to the and which have the CPW local tracks to themselves. As planned, there is only one 6th Ave local service so this service can be easily turned at WTC. Spring, 14th/6th, 23rd/6th, 57th/6th, Roosevelt Island, and 21st-Queensbridge are only served by one train service.      

With regard to a rush hour service pattern, I basically envision that and will each run at 14 TPH and W will run at 7 TPH. and should run at the same frequency so that the can more easily slide into service. It also provides 2 s (or s) for every .   and will utilize the Jamaica Yard and will utilize Coney Island Yard, by riding out of service trains on the Sea Beach or West End lines.           

trains are suspended in favor of the new   

, , , trains run in their current pattern.    

The benefit of bringing back brown K type service would be to allow better usage of the express tracks between Myrtle station and Broadway Junction.  From Broadway Jucntion, the fastest potential trip to midtown would involve using those express tracks on a train that then heads to 6th Ave.   would be slower than this service, because it has too many stops.   would be slower because it takes a longer trip via the Financial District.

Now the number of trains that can run along this stretch of track is limited, so there are defiinitely concerns about dividing up the service in three ways, but could we potentially consider the following:

Orange J Jamaica - serving all stops between Jamaica and Broadway Junction - rush hour express between BJ and Manhattan - 6th Ave local - QBL local to Forest Hills

Brown K:  Atlantic - local stops along Broadway Brooklyn - Chambers (rush hour only)

Brown M: Metropolitan - local stops along Broadway Brooklyn - Broad Street

On 3/12/2023 at 3:58 PM, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

I was thinking the same thing; the ability to short-turn trains at Atlantic Avenue would be very nice and I think they should at least try and bring back the full-length abandoned platform right across from the active one.

Generally though, idk if I like the "Brown " idea cause then that means the Jamacia el would have  3 branches between Myrtle, Canarsie, and Jamacia which would just lead to scheduling issues and delays. Most of those "Brown " riders who previously took the  all the way into Manhattan would just transfer to the  at Atlantic so it wouldn't be like you're pulling many folks actually off the busiest portion of the , just making their commutes more annoying. Would still be worth an investigation though.

If crowding does get bad though, having a few short-turn  trains starting at Atlantic could be nice, especially since Canarsie in it's current set up isn't a very good terminal.

There are very clear benefits to having the short-turn at Atlantic, namely the ability to run more trains on  .   Of course, somthing has to be done to 8th Ave to make sure that all of those trains can be turned back as well.

12 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

I don't think most see the Main line as a very serious alternative to Queens Blvd for the reason another poster described below. However, had the MTA carried through with their super-express plan using the Main Line to connect back to the eastern end of Queens/Blvd and the Archer Line, it would've increased capacity and provided a legitimate subway alternative. Still think it'd be worth looking into this project today, and it could even be connected to the Rockaway branch project.

But I mean just think about it logically; if someone lived at Forest Hills, there is little reason they would choose the LIRR over the  and  which run more frequently, likely offer more direct service, and are comparable in terms of travel times.

And cost as well, with a higher LIRR fare, no free bus transfer.

The value of a commuter rail stop within subway territory is generally to either facilitate reverse commuting from those areas to the suburbs or to capture commuters going from suburbs to city but not all the way to Manhattan.

So anyone in Forest Hills (or who could easily reach Forest Hills via subway and bus) could reverse commute to a transit-accessible job in LI by using the station.  Granted, the majority of LIRR passengers are not doing this, but if the system can provide these people adequate service, then it is better that they commute by transit instead of drive.  Whether Forest Hills is needed for this purpose when Jamaica already exists is another question, but I believe it is, since anyone coming from a local QBL stop could utilize Forest Hills without the need to transfer to to Jamaica, assuming that the train they need stops at Forest Hills.

Likewise, suburban commuters who work near a QBL subway stop in Queens may prefer to take their train to Forest Hills and transfer to the subway as opposed to backtracking from Penn or driving.

The above groups are far more likely to use the LIRR stop than Forest Hills-Manhattan commuters in the normal direction, becasue the subway is that much easier to use and more convenient.

At Kew Gardens, while the same arguments can be made, there are certainly some folks who will  use it as a normal stop.  Kew Gardens is a little further from the subway - it is a considerable walk. People who live in the immediate neighborhood of LIRR may prefer to use it to commute rather than walk or take the bus to the station.   

6 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

This would probably be pretty ideal, though I would make the  (or whatever trains go to Jamacia Center) the Hillside Express while the  operates as Hillside Local (but still QBLVD express). I'm pretty sure from a de-interlining standpoint, this doesn't really matter, but Jamacia Center and Stuphin Blvd are both high-ridership bus feeder stations and making the  local would just be a middle finger to those riders.

I also think a few trains between the  and  should short-turn during rush hour as operating 30tph through Cranberry might be annoying and Fulton doesn't need that much service as things stand today.

The idea of making the Jamaica Center train a Hillside local (i,e. stopping at Briarwood and 75th Ave) is to accommodate the respectfully heavy ridership at Briarwood.  While not as much of a bus terminal as Parsons/Archer, Briarwood is a significant bus to subway transfer point for the Q44 and Q20 buses on Main Street.  Also, it does make it somewhat easier

In some ways, I hope that more buses from Eastern Queens will be relocated to service 179th as opposed to Parsons/Archer.  179th is almost a whole mile further east and for those who are making the transfer, it would be a lot quicker trip overall, even if a bus has to divert from Jamaica Ave to Hillside Ave.  Granted, 179th borders a residential area who may not be thrilled with more buses stopping in front of their station, but it would be more helpful to riders overall.  And if the subway service at 179th were a significant deal faster than other subways, it could justify a bus reroute to that station or to Parsons/Hillside, which would be another Hillside express station.

The main reason for heavy service through the Cranberry tunnel and the Fulton corridor is more for the heavily branched nature of the Fulton terminals than the heavy travel along the corridor itself.  Fulton is the only corridor that current service divides up to three separate terminals, and with some operational improvements and service expansion could potentially serve up to five separate terminals.  

To provide each of the three terminals (as well as each service segment) with a train minimum every 6 minutes would require 10 TPH on each branch and 30 TPH overall.  The three service segments are: a) local stations between Hoyt and Euclid, b) three stations on the Lefferts branch, and c) Broad Channel and all stations leading to Far Rockaway, directly and those transferring from the Rockaway Park shuttle.

{If we were to expand the serive to four branches, meaning that Rockaway Park is regularly served by its own branch during rush hours, than each of the four service segments (locals to Euclid, Lefferts branch, Far Rockaway, Rockaway Park) would see 7.5 TPH or a train mimimum every 8 minutes.

And if we were to expand to five branches serving my pipe dream of a direct connection from the Fulton express to JFK airport, than each branch would only get 6 TPH or a train every 10 minutes.  Five branches is really unfeasible, even if the combined service were 30 TPH, so even if a direct subway link were established to JFK, I envision that at least one of the other services would remain a shuttle or that the Euclid locals would combine with the Lefferts service or that some type of Queenslink service would serve the Rockaways with a transfer to the Lefferts train at the Rockaway Blvd station. }

In any event, the only way to adequate provide service (not capacity) to three separate sets of stations (as in the current service plan) would require maximizing the number of trains servicing Fulton.  IMO, this is why many people's proposals provide somthing along the lines of having all Cranberry tunnel trains servicing the Fulton express and providing some kind of unique tunnel connection for the Fulton local to Lower Manhattan.   [The most popular of these seems to be  Fulton express divided betweeen Rockaway and Lefferts with  service from Montague tunnel connecting to Court street to the Fulton local or an tunnel connecting WTC via new tunnel under the river to Court street.]  I don't think that a new tunnel's cost and disruption is justified before we try a service rearrangement to maximize the exisiting throughput through the Cranberry tunnel, which means sending 30 TPH there.

For the most part, my plan doesn't really change Fulton service at all.  Today's service divides Cranberry tunnel trains to three terminals: locals to Euclid, expresses to Lefferts, and expresses to Far Rockaway.  I keep this service pattern, but increase the overall number of trains to decrease watining time along the branches.  The other change, of course happens on the northern end as the 8th Ave expresses head to Queens instead of Columbus Circle and CPW.  There is also no direct serivce to Spring or 23rd stations under my plan, but those are easily reachable with a cross platform transfer.

A slight adjustment to my B division partial de-interlining proposal from this past week:

 168th St - CPW local - 8 Ave local - W4 switches - Houston St - Rutgers tunnel - Culver line - CI

 Bedford Park Blvd (rush hours) - Concourse local (rush hours) - CPW local - 8 Ave local - W4 switches - Houston St - Williamsburg Bridge - Myrtle line - Met Ave

 will run 24 hours. During late nights it is extended to 207 St.   service will run as an additional service to denote some trains providing express service on the Culver line north of Church Ave.

will run as follows:

Rush hours: BPB - Met Ave

Midday and evening:  145 [or 168 St] - Met Ave

Weekends:  Met Ave - Chambers

Late nights: Met Ave - Myrtle on J line. 

 207 St - CPW express - 6 Ave express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton local

 205 St - Concourse line all stops (rush hour express in commuting direction) - CPW express - 6 Ave express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton local.

 207 St - CPW express - 6 Ave express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton express

Rush hours and mid-day:   and  operate

Evenings and weekends:   and  operate

Late nights: Only  operates

 Forest Hills - QBL local - 63rd - 6 Ave local - W 4 switches - WTC

 Astoria - 60th - Broadway local - Montague tunnel - 4 Ave local - Bay Ridge

 Forest Hills - QBL local - 60th - Broadway local - Whitehall

Here, we see the first interline.  and run services that are independent of their respective express services, but are connected to each other by the hybrid service.  W provides QBL local connection to Queens Plaza, Broadway services, and an easier transfer to  at Lexington. At the same time,  makes use of some of the excess capacity of the Broadway local that the Astoria service cannot provide on its own.  F and R will each run 14 TPH during rush hours and W will run 7 TPH.  F and R will be 24 hour services and W will not run weekends or late nights.  This matches with many of the existing constraints of the system (physical or beuractratic):  Forest Hills will need to turn 21 TPH, Astoria, Bay Ridge, and WTC will turn 14 TPH, and Whitehall will turn 7 TPH.  14 and 7 were chosen (2 to 1 ratio) as they match up well with a FFW or a RRW pattern.  F and R should run at the same frequency as each other to make it easier for W to merge between the gaps.

 96th - 2nd Ave - Broadway express- Manhattan Bridge - 4th Ave express - Sea Beach

 96th - 2nd Ave - Broadway express- Manhattan Bridge - 4th Ave express - West End

N and Q will both run 24 hours and will run a 50/50 service alternating N and Q.  THe only difference is how the train connects 36 St Brooklyn to Coney Island.

 Jamaica Center - Hillside local - QBL express - 53rd - 8th Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton express - Far Rockaway

 179 St - Hillside local - QBL local - 53rd - 8th Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton local - Lefferts

 179 St - Hillside express - QBL express - 53rd - 8th Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton express- Lefferts

 179 St - Hillside local - QBL express - 53rd - 8th Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton local - Euclid

Last, but not least, the triplex along the 8th Ave express.  Each service operates at 10 TPH during rush hours and generally slightly less at other times.

Rush hours, middays and evenings:   run.  is meant as a service that provides people from Eastern Queens a faster way to the QBL express by skipping all stops east of Forest Hills except Union Turnpike and Parsons.

Weekends and late nights:   and  run.  service is meant as a substitute service to provide more local service when isn't operating to connect QBL local to Queens Plaza, LIC, and more of midtown.  It also effectively provides a Fulton local service that is extended to Lefferts during the times when  and don't operate.  

On 2/18/2023 at 2:44 PM, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Running the  and  each at about 10tph would provide a train every 6 minutes in their Brooklyn portions and a Broadway Express/SAS service every 3 minutes. Unless I'm missing something, 96th Street should be able to easily handle 20tph, especially with the layup tracks. 10tph is about what the  and  currently run during peak so no one would be losing service.

As for Astoria, send 15tph on the  line from Bay Ridge to Astoria, possibly with a few short-turning or going to Gravesend for yard access, and have the  run at about 8 tph as the QBLVD local from Whitehall to Forest Hills. In this scenario, you could internally just identify the  as an  or make it it's own line; I don't see why that of all things should be a barrier.

The biggest tangible concern (that I agree with) is yard access for Broadway Locals, but tbh Broadway locals have always had poorer yard access. It wouldn't be that hard for the  to take from the Coney Island yards, and  could use Jamacia Yard?

The other loss people point to is Astoria no longer having Express service on Broadway, which just seems silly to me given sometimes service changes have to be made for the benefit of the greater system, and the  doesn't even skip a  stop until 28th street lol (I feel like I've already said this several times so srry if this is repetitive).

If someone can explain what exactly the big issue is here, I'm all ears, but most of the concerns I've heard so far can easily be addressed or just arbitrary things that aren't really problems.

This is an entirely good and fair point.  Rearranging Broadway services without affecting the other lines in the system would be a dramatic service improvement.  A merger between local and express tracks is highly destructive to train flow.

 and together for the entire trip between 96 St and the Manhattan Bridge to avoid interfering with other trains.  [It would be even better if they ran on the same line in Brooklyn as well, but that's not strictly necessary for the above discussion.]  10 TPH each should be adequate for the services that they currently run in Brooklyn and still maintain adequate service on teh Broadway express while running at a reasonable frequency for turnarounds at 96 St.

Next run an Astoria-Broadway local service that maintains the existing service for Astoria.  In normal service this can run all the way to Bay Ridge as the main Broadway local service.  If service is ending and the service needs to access a yard, it can run out of service after 59 St in Brooklyn and then head to the CI yard via the Sea Beach line.

Additional room that does exist on the Broadway local can be serviced by Forest Hills - Whitehall locals.  IMO, this is probably better from a minimizing deadheading POV than the current pattern, since FH-Whitehall trains can be run out of Jamaica Yard with little deadheading.  The existing  service has a very long deadhead from Whitehall to the CI Yard.  Would it not be an improvement to remove that and replace that with service that only deadheads along the Sea Beach branch?

Overall, running service like this would mean running more overall trains along the Broaday service, but it should still be reasonable.  

Another possible problem is the reduction in Forest Hills-Braodway service.  If only 21 TPH is possible along the curves in the Broadway local in Lower Manhattan, then we are limiting the QBL local - Bradway local service to only 6 TPH (if we maintain 15 TPH for Astoria).  Even this can be ameliorated to an extent with an increase in QBL local - 6th Ave service.  Not all of those trains need to run along the route in Brooklyn, as some extra service can always run short and turn at 2nd/Houston.

On 2/14/2023 at 9:41 PM, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

The  only running at 10 tph seems very problematic to me, especially given how crowded the line is already at 15tph. I don't understand why this extra  service is necessary and why you can't just have an  at 15 tph serving as the sole Fulton Express and the  at 10 tph or so as the sole Fulton local. The Fulton line tends to not be very busy and wouldn't need 30 tph. This would obv force the  down to like 15 tph, but as is the  seems slightly favored over the  with current ridership patterns, so running more QBLVD express via 63rd than 53rd is a net negative.

The main issue here would be the  on it's own at 10 tph would be insufficient as the sole QBLVD local, so I think the best thing to do is have Broadway assist.

Overall the rest of your proposal balances "both ends" of lines pretty well so they have roughly even ridership. 18 tph on the  might be a bit overkill imo, but that's me being knit-picky.

On 2/15/2023 at 2:02 PM, TDL said:

is necessary to eliminate multiple Fulton express branches

A pet peeve of many of my suggested plans is assigning a different letter to distinguish Lefferts and Rockaway services.  Even if no other change was made to today's system, I would have both an  207 St - Far Rockaway and an  207 St - Lefferts service for purposes of paseenger clarity.  The combined number of and trains would be the same as today's total  service, just named differently.

With my above plan, you have 10 TPH service to Lefferts, 10 TPH service to Far Rockaway, and 10 TPH service to Euclid.  Every segment of the line will have at least a 6 min rush hour frequency.  It's true that the Fulton line isn't that busy, but it needs the service because it is currently divided into so many different terminals (and we aren't even thinking of providing much dedicated service to Rockaway Park, just the existing division of trains coming out of the Cranberry tunnel ending at either Euclid, Lefferts, or Mott.

Ideally, the three Fulton services can match with three QBL express services on the north end: Hillside express to 179, Hillside local to 179, and a service to Jamaica Center.  The reason why I did not recommend that was because it would cut off QBL local trains from LIC.  So there needs to be a QBL local train to Queens Plaza.

The only significant place for merges in western Queens are where the train merges into  [QBL local - 8th express] westbound and where the train merges into  [QBL express - 6th local] eastbound.  The beauty of the way this merge works out is that even though  is a hybrid train from the QBL local-8th express line to the QBL express-6th local line is that is on its own at the Queens Plaza stop.   can wait for an appropriate gap at Queens Plaza without disrupting the other trains.

The merge of the 63rd tracks into the QBL mainline would be far worse if there were merges from the 63rd line into both QBL express and QBL local.  63rd merges with  to the express and the QBL local does not merge with 63rd at all.

On 2/15/2023 at 3:21 PM, TMC said:

So just run the  from Astoria to Bay Ridge? You don't need yard access if your timetable isn't heavily peak-focused (which it shouldn't be). You'd get service every 3 minutes down to Whitehall Street, and every 6 minutes down to Bay Ridge.

7 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Whitehall St would only be able to turn a train every 10 minutes when you have a second service running thru to Brooklyn, so that would mean either short-turns at Canal St in addition to the Whitehall St short turns, or more service to Bay Ridge. The only time Whitehall St turned more than 6 TPH, was during the Montague St closure, when it turned 7 TPH (the MTA had scheduled the  every 7.5 minutes in the AM and every 8.5 minutes in the PM, but in the AM, some  trains had to turn around at Canal St). If that closure had happened today, the MTA would have had to either revert the Broadway Line to its 2010-2016 configuration, or short-turn the  at Canal St, with most  trains ending at Whitehall St (and excess trains also terminating at Canal St). 

While it is certainly desirable to have a yard for that is on the route to eliminate deadheading, it isn't actually necessary.  BRT/BMT ran an Astoria-Bay Ridge service for years via Broadway local. 

There are already many physical constraints on the line that will limit the number of trains heading to Bay Ridge.  15 TPH turning capacity at Ditmars and 21 TPH limited capacity through the curves of Lower Manhattan.  

If there were only one service running on this track,  from Ditmars to Whitehall at 15 TPH during rush hour (service every 4 minutes).  One-third of every rush hour train will terminate at Whitehall and two-thirds of the trains continuing to 95th.  This means that one train every 12 minutes (5 TPH) runs short to Whitehall and two trains every 12 minutes (an uneven  gap with some trains running 4 minutes after the previous and some trains running 8 minutes after the previous) running along the 4th Ave local.

11 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

I like this quite a bit actually; W4 switches are always underrated and underdiscussed as cursed as it would look on a subway map. Getting to the far west side from South Brooklyn can actually be pretty annoying so the  solves that. 

My 2 suggestions would be I don't think there's really a need for your  service to supplement the  on Fulton which is already going to be running at 4-minute headways, an increase from the . I would cut the . My second suggestion would be to send a Broadway service, call it the , to at least supplement QBLVD during rush hours.

I don't think we need de-interlining yet, but as discussed elsewhere SAS Phase II may force it if built as planned just cause the  alone ain't gonna be enough.

Thank you for your wonderful comments.  I was in a rush to get this out, so I did not have the time to adequately explain my ideas.  So here it goes:

I am a de-interlining believer since it would reduce a lot of the entanglements that produce delays.  It also allow for increased frequency and would provide in some cases even provides that all trains to your destination will meet at the same platform (as opposed to service being split to two or more platforms).  The downsides, though, are that some (or many) may have increased walking and/or increased transfers in order to complete their journeys.  So it is wise to implement something that will reduce delays, yet a pure deinterlining system would not be practical as it will make some current trips very difficult.

The exercise is meant to run the system in the most efficient manner with as little capital expense as possible.

The A division is already partially deinterlined, so I am not recommending any changes.   and  runs completely separate from other trains at all times except late nights and certain GOs, and these train lines run very reliably, even as the express counterparts face delays.  In the B division there is no line (except the shuttles and  ) that isn't affected by other lines, so the delays propagate.  A problem with  can affect  which in turn can affect which in turn can affect   .  

168th St - CPW / 8 Ave local - W4 switches - Rutgers Tunnel - Culver Line .  

Bedford Park Blvd [rush hours] - Concourse local [rush hours] - CPW / 8 Ave local - W 4 switches - Williamsburg Bridge - Myrtle Ave line 

For the 8th Ave locals, I make use of the W4 switches to continue to allow Midtown service for the Myrtle Ave line.  Since the platforms are short along this line, I felt it would be better to connect it with the CPW locals instead of the very busy QBL.  Utilizing the switches allow 8th Ave locals to turn onto Houston to serve the Rutgers tunnel and Williamsburg Bridge while allowing 6th Ave locals to continue south on 6th Ave toward the WTC without interfering with each other.   is a 24 hour service that is extended to 207 St late nights.   operates to Bedford Park Blvd rush hours, to 168th St mid-day and evenings, to Chambers Street weekends, and as a Myrtle Ave shuttle late nights.  For rush hours, I anticipate 18 TPH  service and 12 TPH  service.  With that service level, there should be enough capacity for several rush hour  to provide express service through Park Slope for some Culver passengers.

Jamaica Center - QBL express - 53rd street - 8 Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton Express - Far Rockaway 

Forest Hills - QBL local - 53rd street - 8 Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton Express - Lefferts 

Forest Hills - QBL local - 53rd street - 8 Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton Local - Euclid 

For the 8th Ave express service, I do allow a partial intermingling to make things work better.  When looking at QBL deinterlining, there are a lot of hard choices to be made.  53rd hits more midtown destinations than 63rd, so it would make sense for expresses to take 53rd and locals to take 63rd, but doing that would mean that QBL locals would have a very dificult trip to reach the LIC area.  Making all expresses take 63rd and all locals take 53rd would also be problematic, since Forest Hills is limited to 20 TPH, so we are limiting the trains on 53rd (and by extension the Cranberry Tunnel), while at the same time not providing enough capacity for the expresses on 63rd.   63rd feeds into the 6th Ave local which has only two destinations:  WTC (with less than 30 TPH capacity for turning) or Houston, which will send some trains to Williamsburg Bridge where capacity is limited due to the short platforms along this line in Brooklyn.  So some form of hybrid is necessary, which is what I propose above.   is a 24 hour service and will run at 10 TPH at rush hours.   is also 24 hours service and will also run at 10 TPH during rush hour.  will run at all times, except late nights, and will run at 10 TPH during rush hour.  During late night hours,  will run local in Brooklyn.  Running three services on Fulton will better distinguish between Far Rockaway, Lefferts, and Euclid destinations 

207 St - CPW express - 6 Ave express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton express 

205 St - Concourse express - 6 Ave express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton local 

the 6th Ave express service will .  During rush hours,  will also run express along Concourse in the dominant direction, and make all Bronx stops at other times.   is a 24 hour service with 18 TPH during rush hours.   will run at all times except late nights with 12 TPH during rush hours.  

179 St - Hillside local - QBL express - 63rd street - 6 Ave local - W 4 switches - WTC  

Same as  , except express Hillside express (stopping at only Union Turnpike, Parsons, and 179 east of Forest Hills) 

Despite using the same letter, I envision both  and  as two separate services with 10 TPH frequency each during rush hours.  Regular express service to teh easternmost stop in the system is necessary, as many people at 179 have very long trips and are often coming from buses from the very far reaches of Queens or even Nassau county.  WTC has the capacity to turn 20 TPH, which is what  and  combined provide.   will run 24 hours.

96th/2 Av - Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge - 4 th Ave express - Sea Beach 

96th/2 Av - Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge - 4 th Ave express - West End 

Astoria - 60th street - Broadway local - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge [serviced by Coney Island Yard using unused capacity on Sea Beach or West End lines] 

Each line above will run 24 hours and provides a mechanism of completely separating the Broadway trains from the 8th and 6th trains and providing adequate separation between the Broadway locals and Broadway expresses.

A new modified "light" deinterlining proposal for B Division:

 168th St - CPW / 8 Ave local - W4 switches - Rutgers Tunnel - Culver Line

 Bedford Park Blvd [rush hours] - Concourse local [rush hours] - CPW / 8 Ave local - W 4 switches - Williamsburg Bridge - Myrtle Ave line

 Jamaica Center - QBL express - 53rd street - 8 Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton Express - Far Rockaway

 Forest Hills - QBL local - 53rd street - 8 Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton Express - Lefferts

 Forest Hills - QBL local - 53rd street - 8 Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton Local - Euclid

 207 St - CPW express - 6 Ave express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton express

 205 St - Concourse express - 6 Ave express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton local

 179 St - Hillside local - QBL express - 63rd street - 6 Ave local - W 4 switches - WTC

 Same as , except express Hillside express (stopping at only Union Turnpike, Parsons, and 179 east of Forest Hills)

 96th/2 Av - Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge - 4 th Ave express - Sea Beach

 96th/2 Av - Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge - 4 th Ave express - West End

 Astoria - 60th street - Broadway local - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge [serviced by Coney Island Yard using unused capacity on Sea Beach or West End lines]

On 2/9/2023 at 1:29 PM, CyclonicTrainLookout said:

FASTRACK work on the Queens Blvd Line: Overnights from Feb 27-Mar 3 and Mar 3-10 from 9:30 pm to 5 am

No  between Roosevelt Av and World Trade Center, making all local stops from Jamaica Center and Roosevelt Av

No  between Roosevelt Av and 21 St-Queensbridge

 service ends early between Forest Hills-71 Av and Whitehall St

 service runs via Lower Manhattan the same time  service ends early

Additional  service runs between 9:15 pm and 2:30 am

Unless I'm not seeing it on the site, there seem to be no mention of LIRR cross-honoring.

This will certainly be a rough closure.  Glad I don't need to travel there.

3 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

Try taking the Queens Blvd Line on the weekend and get back to me. If you think the  is bad (which it is), the  and  (and  ) will make it look like London Underground.

The entire B Div except for  and maybe (they run infrequently, but at least they are consistent) runs like garbage especially off peak hours. Between endless construction work, crew shortages which led to 30 minute waits, bunching in service due to construction work, leading to another 20-30 minute wait, service running slow, service running local and slow, it is non-stop.

On weekday the trains are usually fine, but on evening and weekend, complete crap service. 

 

I sometimes wished they just shut down half of the QBL at Roosevelt Avenue at one time for like 6 month or so, do all the repairs at once, and shut the other half when that is done. It is extremely disruptive I know, but I am sick and tired that  assumes nobody needs to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time on the weekends and evenings. These weekend construction has been going on since like what early 2000?

The  and  are probably the only trains in the entire system that are competitive internationally. They run frequent, semi-reliable service and have very good off peak service.

8 minutes is a service cut for the  

Compared to the  this is great service. All the QBL services seem to love running in bunches, so you will have a  in 1 min, a  in 3 min and a  in 5 minutes and then no trains for another 15 minutes

It almost seems like the above and many of the similar complaints are making the case for deinterlining, even for weekends and even for GOs, to the extent possible.

 and have good service. They are reliable.  They are consistent.  The main reason that is the case is beause there are no other services that interfere with them.

I tend to agree.

There can be a balance between service and safety.

Larger stations should have public restrooms and smaller stations should have restrooms only availabe to staff and emergencies.

What defines a larger station?  Certainly major transfer points (including bus-subway transfers) and probably want to be sure that no place is too far away from a public bathroom, so maybe a need to provide a public bathroom at least every 5 local stops.

It is quite amazing.  And it is also amazing how they were able in most cases to maintain the conveninet 4 track desing that facilitates the local-express cross platform transfer, even in situations where the street was narrow.  [The only exceptions that come to mind are upper Lexington where local and express were on separate levels.]