StevenFrancis

On 7/20/2019 at 7:18 PM, Amtrak706 said:

The R62s had an incredibly high MDBF, around 273,000 this past year, and the 62As maintained a very good 114,000. These are actually even higher than the R142 and R142A, respectively, and beat most other NTTs. They are by far the most reliable old tech trains and are in the top three for most reliable period, together with the R188 and R160. Why on earth is the MTA planning to replace them? When replacements were planned for the Redbird and then B-division SMEE fleets, MDBF was tanking and the cars were falling apart. I’m not saying they should wait until things are that bad again, but these cars solid stainless steel (not falling apart at all) and are so reliable that they may actually beat the R262s when they come in. It feels like a bad move.

Trains do not last forever, the plans on converting the subway to CBTC and the SMEEs are not able to be retrofitted, it's cheaper for the MTA to just buy new CBTC-ready cars. You have to realize that, things are progressing, we can't just keep old things because people like them, if it's time for an old train to go, they have to go. You also have to realize that not every newer train that arrives on  property will work perfectly, they go through teething problems when they begin burn in testing that has to be fixed, so of course their MDBF will be initially low, but as things work out, it'll increase. No excuse is good enough to just keep old cars that will wear out. Look at the (SIR) R44s, I'm surprised they're still roadworthy, the R211Ss should've been awarded first and they should've been given those cars the boot, it's by God's grace they're still operating.

On 7/20/2019 at 7:33 PM, JeremiahC99 said:

Age and the need to have CBTC-compatible cars on the Lexington Avenue Line, since that line is planning to get CBTC. The option to not retire them and move the  R62As to the  is NOT an option, given the high frequency of the  and , not to mention that they often switch signs are Flatbush every single rush hour. If we put even a few R62/As on the  and , then you can expect delays from Flatbush Avenue all the way to Franklin Avenue, compounding already existent delays on the line south of Church Avenue. Therefore, there is no other choice but to retire them.

In addition, the R62As have a very high reliability because somehow, they’re assigned to a part time line (the ) that doesn’t run its entire route all the time. It runs from 148 to New Lots at all times except late night, when it is a shuttle between 148 and Times Sq, where a pocket track exists to turn trains. For the , the shorter route, aside from providing service to Central Harlem, allows for the other R62s to go into the shop for inspection and repairs. The R62A, R142 and R142As are all assigned to mainline trains that constantly run its entire route all the time, though the  runs shorter routes outside the work hours. Hopefully when the new cars come in, the R142 and R142As get reassigned to the  to have cars with lower Mean Fail rates on part time lines while factory fresh cars get assigned to full time lines.

R62As operate on the  and . The  uses R62s.

I wouldn't be surprised if the R262s go to the  and  those are the heaviest used IRT lines, their current higher capacity NTTs are bursting at the seams and those lines need cars with higher capacity than these, and if the R262s have open gangways, then I see them going there. I also see the R142s going to the  and   since it is such a large fleet that can easily be split between the two and really all those lines need are trains with higher capacity and better flow but nothing requiring open gangways, therefore, I see the  and 42nd Street  getting R142As, even when they get CBTC retrofits.

Fantasy line: (P) Main Street Local

Bullet colour: magenta

Rolling stock: R160

Yard: Jamaica

Stops:

Bay Plaza +Bx12 SBS+

Pelham-Hutchinson Pkwys +Bx12 SBS+

Westchester Av

Ferry Point Park-Lafayette Av +Q44 SBS+

20th Av

Linden Place

32nd Av

Roosevelt Av +Q44 SBS+ LIRR 

Dahlia Av 

Booth Memorial Av +Q44 SBS+

Reeves Av-Queens College +Q44 SBS+

Jewel Av +Q44 SBS+

73rd Av +Q44 SBS+

Union Turnpike +Q44 SBS+

Briarwood  +Q44 SBS+

Jamaica-Van Wyck  

Sutphin Blvd-Archer Av-JFK +Q44 SBS+ LIRR AirTrain

And I've lived near those tracks growing up. There are spurs that will get in the way i.e. the one leading to the Hunts point Market near the Bruckner, the Oak Point yard in the south Bronx then there's the draw bridge north westchester ave. There will need to be a new bridge added there to accommodate the extra tracks. Then there's the current proposal of Metro North service there. Platforms need to be added for that service which has more of a chance happening then what's being proposed here. Let's be a little more realistic shall we? Too many factors are in play.

 

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Also don't forget that part of the line would still be drilled underground like from Erskine Place to Bay Plaza, also that bridge rarely opens up, if anything the MAY build new ones and the Oak Point Yard spur will get in the way but when operations are occurring, the RR services and will work something out to have smoother, less conflicting operations like building a flyover of some sort, I never said that the line had to run ENTIRELY on the ROW.

I would propse this for the Second Avenue Subway

Since this thread is one of the few threads that allow me to foam without criticism, here's what I would propose:

I would propose two routings

After 116th Street:

One will stop at 125th Street-Lexington Avenue (ADA accessible with transfers to , M60 to LaGuardia Airport)

One out of every four trains will only serve this station on weekdays, other times, the will handle service here.

 

The second will run via Amtrak's Northeast Corridor following an earlier plan, this one will be known as the Corridor Line making stops at:

Willow Avenue / East 135th Street (ADA accessible)

Leggett Avenue / Bruckner Boulevard

Lafayette Avenue / Bruckner Boulevard

Tiffany Street / Bruckner Boulevard

Hunts Point Avenue / Bruckner Boulevard (ADA accessible with a transfer to at Hunts Point Avenue)

Westchester Avenue / Sheridan Expressway (transfer to at Whitlock Avenue with a reopening of the old NYW&B station house)

174th Street / Bronx River Avenue

East Tremont Avenue / East 180th Street

White Plains/Unionport Roads / East Tremont Avenue (ADA accessible)

Bronxdale Avenue / Sackett Avenue

Williamsbridge Road / Sackett Avenue

Pelham - Hutchinson Parkways / Stillwell Avenue & Hutchinson Metro Center

Erskine Place / Hunter Avenue

Bay Plaza / The Mall at Bay Plaza (ADA accessible with transfer to Bx12 Select Bus Service)

This line will see frequent and constant service.

Very true haha, the announcement fetish in particular cracks me up. As equipment, I'm actually a big fan of the 62As.

 

 

 

Well, exactly, that's what we're talking about there.

 

 

 

The crews may be adjusting but there was a lot of trouble for a while, and no skilled crew can really make up for narrower doors and longer loading times. That's just going to slow you down regardless.

 

C/Rs were shouting over the PA, T/Os were making announcements at the same times as the C/Rs, there were a lot of annoyances. Couple of basic screwups as well while C/Rs were getting used to the equipment, I had one C/R who pulled into 23rd, made all the announcements for the station and the 'Stand Clear' without ever opening the front half of the train. Luckily the T/O caught the mistake and radioed back, doors opened.

 

But I agree, those 62As can and do move faster than the 142As...it's just loading times in the rush that are the achilles heels.

Thats not a surprise to me , one time a door guard of an R46 that I was on, opened the doors without realizing the front half was still closed until later.

Thank you, if they overhaul R62A with modern tech it would be a lot better,like auto announcements LED destination sign but it looks like we won't see that anytime soon.

that is pointless since it won't change anything and it's a waste of money... riders can use the strip maps just like passengers on the , and always have been if they need to look up their stop

Naaahh they wont do all that overhauling especially since the R62/As will only be around until the latest around 2030, if anything they might get LED side signs that face inward and outward like the R46s. On top of that the R62/As strip maps arent even updated or show wrong info on the R62As, at Times Square-42nd Street still showed transfers to and trains, luckily it was so small and hard to read and the R62As show the Q32 goes to LGA, when it was actually the Q33 and now its Q70

If you're going to split the into two services that terminate so far away from each other, then one of them should have a different letter. Perhaps use U or V for the Co-op City service. I know at one point MTA and/or City planners considered using all or part of the Northeast Corridor r-o-w in the Bronx (then operated by the New York, New Haven and Hartford RR) for 2nd Avenue service to/from Co-op City. The 1968 MTA plan called for 2nd Avenue service to/from Dyre Ave and Pelham Bay Park using the existing and lines up to the points where they got close to the Northeast Corridor and shaving back the platform edges so the existing stations could platform B-Division trains. I thought that was a good plan, but I'm not sure how feasible it would be today, especially considering the MTA tore down the old el structure that would have been used to connect the Dyre Avenue line to the Northeast Corridor r-o-w and built an expanded bus depot in the path of the el's r-o-w (which had been used by New York, Westchester and Boston interurban trains until 1938, then later used for storage after subway service started on the portion of NYW&B r-o-w from Dyre Ave to East 180th St).

I would still stick with this routing because its not like every other is heading to 125th, then to the Bronx, since there's a to take it on too, so like during rush hours, one out of every 3 s would go to 125th and weekends, one out of every 4, and late nights only have Bronx and Manhattan service and let the take over 125th to reduce congestion hopefully, so I dont see the issue with making a new train especially since one service, the already follows a similar concept of service, but ewww why convert the IRT lines to B Division standards, that's a lot considering now maintenance shops like East 180th and Westchester, wouldve had to have been expanded, I think its fine as is

reroute

Two trains, after 116th Street station, the will split into two services

1: to 125th Street-Lexington Avenue (connecting to and M60 bus and ADA accessible), making a diverging turn after 116th Street

2: to Bay Plaza via Amtrak Northeast Corridor known as the IND or BMT Corridor Line making stops at:

Willow Avenue / 135th Street (ADA accessible)

Leggett Avenue / Bruckner Blvd

Lafayette Avenue / Bruckner Blvd

Tiffany Street / Bruckner Blvd

Hunts Point Avenue / Bruckner Blvd (change to available at Hunts Point Avenue and ADA accessible)

Westchester Avenue / Whitlock Avenue (change to available at Whitlock Avenue)

177th Street / Bronx River Pkwy

East Tremont Avenue / Adams Street (ADA accessible)

White Plains & Unionport Roads / East Tremont Avenue

Eastchester Road / Bassett Avenue

Pelham & Hutchinson Pkwys / Stillwell Avenue/Hutchinson Metro Center

Erskine Place / Boller Avenue

Bay Plaza / The Mall At Bay Plaza (underneath mall, connection to Bx12 Select Bus Service, and ADA accessible)

 

Line runs on Northeast Corridor right-of-way, then goes underground between Erskine Place and Pelham & Hutchinson Pkwys and runs underground from Erskine Place to Bay Plaza and after Willow Avenue

What do you think?

Are we assuming that Montague is still closed? if we assume it's open:

 

Howard Beach/Lefferts to 207th. shuttle service runs between Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway over the wye track.

Suspended

2nd Avenue to Norwood, running on the C between West 4th and 59th.

Runs on the E between West 4th and Queens. Terminates at Neptune Avenue on the southbound track, crossing back over just south of Avenue X

Metropolitan Avenue to Bay 50th on the West End and Alabama to Jamaica Center.

8th Avenue to Myrtle and Atlantic Avenue to Canarsie. Temporary free transfer to Livonia El at Livonia Avenue

Suspended, replaced by F and J

86th Street in Brooklyn to Forest Hills, via Montague Tunnel and QBL. Single track shuttle between 39th and Ditmars. Temporary free transfer between 36th St on the QBL and 39th Ave on Astoria.

Ocean Parkway-Forest Hills via Montague, 63rd, and QBL.

Suspended north of 36th in Brooklyn

BMT/IRT Unaffected

Rockaway Suspended, see above

Suspended

South Ferry-148th/Lenox and Dyckman-242nd

No service between 3rd-149th and E180

Suspended

Extended to New Lots

No service south of E180

Times Square-Court Square and Woodside/61st-Flushing

 

If Montague is closed, run a shuttle on the West End line, the N doesn't run between Court and Whitehall, the J terminates at Broad, the Q terminates at Prospect Park, and a shuttle runs between 7th/57th and Forest Hills via 63rd Street.

 

In either case, all express service is suspended to ease travels for those going to/from a closed or hard to access station

We'll keep Montague open, sorry I didn't mention it.

At that point, why would the subway be open lol. But if you insist...

South Ferry to Lenox Term-148 St, Dyckman St to 242 St

Brooklyn to 3 Av-149 St, E180 St to 241 St

Dyre shuttle only

74 St to Main St

Suspended

205 St to Bway-Lafayette (6 Av local, slow speed), Atlantic-Barclays to Bay 50 St (express)

Queens to Avenue X (slow speed on 6 Av)

Broad St to Metropolitan Av, Alabama Av to Jamaica Center

8 Av to Myrtle-Wyckoff, Atlantic Av to Canarsie (1 track shuttle)

Lex-59 St to Whitehall St, Court St to 86 St (local)

Prospect Park to Brighton Beach

36 St to 95 St

suspended

Delays everywhere

Lol well New York always brings the subway back ASAP but what about the Rockaways? I did mention the bridges and tracks twisted and stuff

I have a scenario

A magnitude 9 earthquake has struck the city and now the subway has these following issues

The tunnel between 191st Street and 181st Street on the is weakened and the Manhattan Valley Viaduct on 125th Street is structurally compromised with snapped beams

West Farms Square on the and is structurally compromised with a shift from its foundation

The PATH tunnel is in a dire emergency of near collapse on the 6th Avenue line

Queensboro Plaza on the and is structurally compromised with snapped beams

The Manhattan Bridge has beams snapped

The Rockaway Flats bridges and tracks have been twisted and weakened

The Queens Boulevard Viaduct on the is structurally compromised with snapped beams

Stillwell/Coney Island Terminal is structurally compromised with snapped beams and a foundation slip

Broadway Junction on the platforms is structurally compromised with snapped beams and may collapse on the and platforms

 

Solutions?

I'm not so sure. Look at how long it took them to re-open Smith-9 Sts.

True but something has to be done there, it looks too dilapidated and needs to be fixed

just wondering: normally a R142 or R142A, a train has 10 cars and the c/r position is on the 6th car north and south, im wondering how come on the R188 , the c/r position is at the 5th car out of 11 cars but cannot open at the 6th car like all other trains

 

There are some R142/As where the conductor is at the 5th car, ive seen one on a yesterday at East 180th Street, as for the R188, Im going to guess it has something to do with the C car in the 6 set considering the 5 car set is most likely converted R142As and that could be the norm

They can't completely transform the station overnight.

Oh no I understand , maybe it might go through rehab like Smith-9th Streets did

I wonder are the interior and side signs gonna turn off when they switch words like on the R142s or just switch staying on like the other models?

I still have an issue with 205th Street on the , it still looks like a piece of garbage

When CBTC apparatus fails on the R143's it was realized by many of us here in an unrelated discussion that CBTC failures on the trains and even if the signal system fails forces a block signal pattern on the line either way then many R143'2 will go OOS and counts as a failure in a given day and week. Hence the MDBF. This happens alot.

Another reason why I dont like CBTC, yes it allows trains to run at closer intervals but because they call for signals to be removed and when it fails, how would the trains run safely, but technological updates these days phase out manpower

I may not have mentioned it before, but the different colors could even help the towers identify trains, when the tower is in a place where the trains are visible, or even places like DeKalb/Gold that uses a camera.

(Colors were used like this back with the new large color signs on the slants in 1967).

Exactly cuz now towers can determine trains based off of where they came from and which line it has punched in prior to entering the interlocking vicinty.

Agreed. They could have put the red LEDs elsewhere. They just have to be showing anyhow.

 

And for us passengers, it's difficult to tell what train is coming when the sign is so tiny. From one end of the platform, I would need wait until the train has made its way down two-thirds of the platform before being able to squint and see what train it was. Anyone who needs to make split-second decisions based on the train that's arriving is pretty much screwed.

The red LEDs need to go, imagine how beautiful an MTA subway car would look with multicolored signs it would make people understand their train faster through the first clue of the distinction of color in the circle or diamond, at least a white letter or number with a colored cirle or diamond perimeter, it doesnt necessarily need to be a full on shaded shape, when it comes to the side amber LEDs, they're ok because their primary function is to display route information with the line designation, no need for multicolor LEDs, but I think the interior LEDs should also feature more LED colors than just red and green, especially for lines that are blue and purple and gray , like and eventually the three which can only do with amber for example have a blue LED for blue lines, blue and red blend and make purple, and since you can't have gray light, have white represent gray, other lines can do justice with just red and green like amber can take in place for orange,yellow, and brown

Also, CTA went with some sort of RGB LED technology for the head end bullets on their new 5000-series trains; check out http://www.ttmg.org/pages/bombardier/cta-bombardier.html if you'd like to see pictures. Personally, I think it works really well...

I remember, first it was amber LEDs until the CTA realized that doesnt specify the line, so they were overhauled.

Understanding that red is highly visible, it still defeats the purpose for multicolored trunk lines, its ok with the 7th Avenue line because they are red but other lines which arent red, it would be an issue, ok the workers need to see whatever but it should be common sense to be cautionary on the tracks so if the R179s come with red LEDs, hopefully future models will employ them , but only for workers who should have common sense and a couple of dollars, those are petty reasons, they should be used

Grand Central Should Have A Passageway Between it And Times Sq 42 St and destroy that

Walking from Times Square and Grand Central, one simply does not have time for that and not only it would kill the , it could also kill the , if not, reduce ridership.

39th Street -

 

The crowds around there are pretty bad, with Penn Station to the south and Times Square to the north. In the middle, to relieve crowds, I'd propose a 39th Street station.

Thats 3 blocks from Times Square and 4 blocks from Penn Station, too close, thats why 91st Street was closed on the in the first place, since it was 5 blocks from 96th and 86th

I would have train stops at 2nd Ave. and Avenue B instead of at 1st and 3rd Aves. 3rd Avenue is a given as it's only a block away from Union Sq., and walking to Alphabet City is a bitch depending on how far in you have to go (good luck if you're going to Ave. D...). Also, when (if) the SAS reaches down there in Phase 3 anyway it would make the 14th St. transfer to the that much easier. Similarly, I would add 2nd Ave. stations to the , , and lines. No one's going to want to walk 2 avenues down to the Lexington Ave. stations when the SAS opens, and 2nd Ave. is populated enough to warrant stations too. I doubt those are possible under existing conditions though.

 

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread I would have stations at 5th Ave. - 63rd St. , Union Ave. (closing Hewes and Lorimer) and 103rd St. .

 

Is a station at Allerton Ave. necessary? It's really close to Gun Hill Rd. as it is. I also don't think it's necessary to add any more 28th St. stations since you're never more than 5 blocks away from a station between 23rd and 34th streets. You don't want too many stops as that just makes commuting slower.

Plus when the SAS reaches 42nd Street, there's gonna be a connection to Grand Central so the stop at 42nd Street is gonna be out of the picture.