lirr42
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Posts posted by lirr42
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Yeah I know... And what happens with the extra cars that aren't filled? I've noticed this with the New Haven cars that stop at the Fordham station. You can't get on in the first two cars. Kind of sucks because those trains fill up and then finding a seat can become a PITA.
People are portable, all you have to do is walk up.
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Yep i agree. i noticed that people have all day to get to sporting event. They can handle that stuff. The president of both LIRR and NJT don't realized that people want to leave at the same time. That where they all failed.
They are very well aware that everybody might not leave at the same time. But the mere knowledge of something does not mean that accomplishing that thing practical or even possible.
Let's suppose a train holds 1,000 (including standees.) Their plan was to move 21,000. (Yes, more showed up than expected.) That's roughly 21 trains. Running time between Belmont and Jamaica is 16 minutes. I think they should have operated trains as a shuttle between Belmont and Jamaica and run deadhead back to Belmont. Also, there should have been free transfers to the
and 
at Jamaica.Train capacity, or the lack of trains, was not an issue. At 9pm on a Saturday evening there are more than enough M7's lying around. You can only go 5 miles per hour on the spur, so the big issue is the fact that it takes some time to get trains out of the racetrack station and onto the mainline, and to get equipment trains from the mainline back into the racetrack station.
The issue is that the condition of the Belmont Spur is so terrible that what trains you do run out of there have to crawl like a snail. MTA should still be maintaining the branch, and it might be good for it to upgrade the tracks and electrical infrastructure and whatnot, but since 2010 that's no longer its responsibility.
So who is responsible for maintaining the spur?
The Belmont Park station, spur, and trains exist at the pleasure of the NYRA. They are the ones that are free to spend as much (or as little) on infrastructure or service improvements as they want. The LIRR has made it clear they have no desire at this point in time in doing anything with Belmont other than using it as a fancy MoW siding. They're not going to spend a dime on it, and it would be unreasonable to expect them to do so.
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VG8, it's supposed to be a zone to zone calculation. With your Melrose to Fordham vs Melrose to Fleetwood example, some might accept it,some might not. Technically if you are traveling beyond the zones printed on the ticket, we are supposed to charge a ride extention.
On the LIRR, the diversion in station fare (for one-way/round-trips) is calculated as the difference between the fare you paid and the fare you would have paid, so if the tickets are the same price, you'd just be cut a step-up for $0.
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Okay, so you're saying that those stats are 100% accurate is that right??
Yes, I am. You will need to do more than say they are not. Find me multiple examples of trains that were canceled and not indicated as such in the database (then provide tangible proof to support your claim), and then we can talk. Other than that, your complaints have no merit. You can't just go around running around and pointing fingers for no reason.
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Yeah and? The
has been known to collect information to suite their own agenda... Again, do some research before you type. There is the Late/Canceled Train Information database on Metro-North's website. It lists all trains that are late or canceled. That is the list the percent scheduled completed runs figure is factored from that. Find me multiple examples of trains that were canceled and not indicated as such in the database (then provide tangible proof to support your claim), and then we can talk.
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Talk about exaggerating...
That statistic is taken directly from the MTA Board Minutes, publicly available on the MTA's website. Do some research before you type!
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And that's precisely the problem.... They're not doing a good job at that, yet they're advertising their services to the public, encouraging them to use it.
99.2% of trips get from point A to point B. They're doing a very good job at that.
Of course it's tight when you don't plan... The fact of the matter is it's their job to be proactive about these things, not just sit back and make excuses. They seem to spend more time boasting about record ridership rather than studying ridership patterns to understand where there's the most potential growth, etc. Again, common sense things... I wonder when was the last time that they did a study on that... You can't sit here and tell me with a straight face that if they're marketing Metro-North as heavily and aggressively as they have been over the last few years through various parts of the tri-state area that they're not going to expect ridership to grow. I mean give me a break. If they're having such problems with capacity, then it doesn't make sense to market a service that you can't provide.
Cost is also a significant factor, one that you are completely ignoring. Back in 1994, the LIRR was told they could get 134 C3's or they could get 0. They would not have been able to keep the old diesel equipment in maintainable condition for another 20 or 30 years until more money came up, so they took what they could get. The Capital Program is not an open-ended check. They may plan and decide they need X amount of cars, but once it gets to the bookeeper, they wind up only getting Y. There's nothing you can do, unless you want to pay the difference between X and Y...
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I'm sorry but from a PR standpoint, it's a terrible idea to heavily market a service and not be able to produce the service that you're marketing, and this is true regardless of what the circumstances are. I understand your points, but it still doesn't make sense to encourage people use a service via marketing if you're having problems keeping up with the current service that you're providing.
I really don't care about PR standpoints. It's their job to run a railroad, not a private yacht club. It is their one and only function to get you from point A to point B. Anything else is secondary.
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But one has to wonder what projections with regards to MNRR ridership the
had, versus what they've actually received, and whether or not that has caused stress on the amount of cars available to them. The M7's were procured in the 1990's. Ridership back then was not anywhere near were it is today. Can you accurately predict, to within a couple thousand riders, what ridership will be like 20 years from now?
That still has nothing to do with them retiring the old cars though... The point still is that if you know that ridership continues to grow and you know the situation with the capital budget, then you don't retire those cars unless it's absolutely necessary. That's poor planning. Simple as that. It doesn't take rocket science to know that it will be years before monies are approved and new cars can actually be built. You can down vote me all you want but it's just common sense. Did the old cars have structural issues? If they didn't then you keep them in storage.
Actually I didn't know... You see what confused me was that I know how the
holds on to the bus fleet that they have, keeping them in storage well past the time in which they should keep them, but they still keep them just in case they need them. In this case, it just doesn't make sense to retire fleet with no structural issues when you know that you're already tight on cars. Even if they never put them in service because riders like me would complain 
, at least have them. Last time I checked, rail cars were quite large, and storage space on the railroad is quite tight, so it's not as easy as parking a bunch of buses in a parking lot someplace. Do you have space in your Riverdalian backyard for a couple hundred M1's?
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M3's are the classic better performing trains that move much faster. The M3's dont have problems as much
Nooooooooo. The M3's brakedown much more regularly, especially recently. Their age is showing. As awful as the M7's ride (and the LIRR's M7's have been riding awfully these days), I'll take them over M3's any day.
I also agree about the leg room being very cramped. Interesting to see that I'm not the only one that feels this way.
More legroom = more standees. Then you'd have something else to complain about!
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Visualizing LIRR Platform Lengths
The Long Island Rail Road is a system that was built in little bits and pieces over the course of a century. Platform lengths, how long the actual platform where trains can stop is, have never been standard on the LIRR. From the days when a LIRR platform was often just some gravel or asphalt on the ground to the almost universally high-level platform system we see today, there have always been those stations that have shorter platforms than others.The "standard" platform length on the Long Island Rail Road is 12 cars long, as that is the longest-length train that the LIRR runs in normal revenue service. However, many branches rarely, if ever, see 12-car trains, so in certain cases, the shorter platforms are good enough for those branches. Usually, stations in diesel territory will only see 8-car long trains at most, but there are occasions where trains of 9 or more cars are run.
At the stations that have uncommonly short platforms, only the maximum allowed number of cars open their doors at that station, and the others remain closed. We have all heard those announcements over the PA: "only the first six cars will open at St. Albans;" "You must be in one of the first four cars to exit at Kew Gardens or Forest Hills;" "Only the first car will platform at Amagansett."
At each station that has a uncommonly short platform, the unopened cars hang off the platform in a different way. At St. Albans the first six cars always platform, no matter what direction you're heading in, but at Valley Stream, the first eight cars platform when you are going east, and the last eight cars platform when you are going west. Since each station is different, there has to be a different policy for each individual station, since some stations have grade crossings that the LIRR like to avoid fouling and signals or switches which the LIRR can't foul.
There are specific rules that indicate which cars are to be opened at which platforms in which directions for each station, so it's not made up on the fly. It is different at every station, and it can be confusing (though regualar riders at short platform stations tend to learn the patterns at their stop and adjust accordingly.)
Last night, I created the following map which shows all of the different platform lengths, and if the platform is unusually short, exactly which cars will open their doors at that station. The number indicated in the circle represents the length of the platform in number of cars (multiply that number by 85 to get the approximate length of the platform in feet). In certain cases, a letter precedes the number, and that indicates which of the cars open their doors at each station.
The letters mean the following:
- H: The head ____ cars open. Irregardless of direction, the first ____ cars will open at this station.
- R: The rear ____ cars open. Irregardless of direction, the last ____ will always open at this station.
- E: The easternmost ____ cars will open. This can either be the first or last ____ cars, depending on the direction. The end of the train will always line up with the east end of the station platform.
- W: The westernmost ____ cars will open. This again depends on direction, but the end of the train will always line up with the ____ of the platform.
Here is the map, you can click to enlarge it to get a better look. There are a couple of exceptions and remarks, which I will make below.
Click to enlarge. You can also grab a full-resolution .pdf version of this map by clicking this link.
(The LIRR Today map)
The terminal stations all have different track layouts, depending on what track you are on and what direction you are going from. Instead of attempting to clutter up the map with them, I will indicate them below:
Jamaica
Universal 12-car platforms for Jamaica is on the LIRR's wishlist, but due to the very close proximity of switches on different sides of the platforms, extending the platforms would be impossible without either very large gaps or substantial interlocking reconfiguration. The LIRR will be doing the latter as part of the Jamaica Capacity Improvement Project, so we're likely to see full 12-car platforms put in for all tracks at that point:
[NYC Transit Forums doesn't play nice with tables, so visit this page to see the different platform lengths at Jamaica]
New YorkTo the LIRR, all platforms at New York Penn are 12 cars long, and every train that goes there can platform all 12 cars. However, there are a number of platforms longer than 12 cars at Penn Station, but there are no platforms shorter than 12 cars, so it doesn't make much of a difference. (You can find out more about the different platforms at NYP in the New York Penn Track-by-Track posts)[NYC Transit Forums doesn't play nice with tables, so visit this page to see the different platform lengths at New York Penn]
Brooklyn
Several of the platforms at Atlantic Terminal are on significant curves, so only a certain number of cars open on certain tracks, despite the longer platforms:
[NYC Transit Forums doesn't play nice with tables, so visit this page to see the different platform lengths at Atlantic Terminal]
There are also a number of different smaller exceptions and notes that further add to the complexity of all of these platforms:- At Long Island City, only the Mainline platform is used in regular service (westernmost 1 car opens). However, there is an additional two car platform in-between yard tracks 6 and 7, as well as a smaller wooden platform adjacent to yard track 9.
- At Hillside, passengers needing to use the elevator must be discharged from either the two easternmost cars, or a double stop must be arranged.
- Due to the large gap at Glen Street station, train crew members must be positioned at doorways to assist passengers boarding and alighting.
- At Massapequa, only the easternmost 6 cars will open, as the western half of the platform is closed for the Massapequa Station Platform Rehabilitation project.
- Train 2798 makes double-stops at Westhampton, Bridgehampton, Southampton, East Hampton and Montauk (when on station track 2) so all cars platform.
And that's just about it, hopefully I haven't forgotten anything. All this would be a lot easier if there were full-length, 12-car platforms at every last station, but, for the most part, platform lengths don't really have all that much effect on operations or load distribution. The very busy stations tend to all have full-length platforms already, and large swarms of riders is not much of an issue at the smaller stations that often have smaller platforms as well. There's more to discuss on the topic on the subject of platform lengths, but we'll leave it here for now.
Posted on 4/06/2014 06:00:00 AM No Comments2 -
I have to say, I feel for you living all the way out in Montauk and coming into the City everyday, I don't know how you do it. I remember I was interviewing for a job in Hampton Bays and I wanted to take the train to work if I got it, but the only trains were impossible for a 9-5 job, I remember Hopstop was telling me to use the 2:15 am to get there at 3:04 for my job at 8:30, ha! I ultimately didn't get the job there, as a new driver I didn't want to do the drive anyway.
I remember I asked a few months back that when points east of Speonk gets their signals would we see the end of trains to Speonk and more trains to Montauk and you said no, because ridership didn't justify it. I have to agree now, in part because I think people further east are just used to not being able to use a train. When the last westbound train leaves at around 2:30 in the afternoon, I can see why.
I complain about trains to Babylon and having to do one long, agonizing local slog from Patchogue to Babylon followed by another even longer, agonizing local slog through every Babylon Branch station, but ultimately I feel lucky to live in Patchogue when I need the train. Since it's usually a terminal, I consider it a major hub with frequent service (I can certainly hear it from my house) and a prime candidate for future electrification like Port Jefferson. I agree though that we'll never see trains to Grand Central, I don't know what their problem is with Long Island City but I really hope they consider opening up those stations more for their Montauk Branch customers so we can have our own 'East Side Access'.
I have a "master plan" for service along the Montauk Branch that I'll put out eventually that I feel would be able to work within the means of the branch east of Speonk (ridership wise). It includes an additional thru train or two, but it will also have several "scoots" that will run between Patchouge/Speonk and Montauk. These trains would be timed to better suit the intra-island commuters (like the situation you mentioned in your post) who don't have to have their trains timed to be in the city by 9:00am. More on that next week probably (and you can catch the first parts of it here)
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After taking the LIRR from Patchogue to Hunterspoint Avenue a couple of times this month for some business in Manhattan, I can agree with Patrick at LIRR Today that it's a station that's horribly underserved and should get more service as a major City Terminal. I loved being able to catch the 7 just a block away. Why does the LIRR use it's Long Island City stations so sparingly? I hope that when East Side Access opens they won't be dropped all together, because I know for a fact Montauk trains won't run to Grand Central, we only get two to Penn in the very early morning as it is, I wish we had less trains to just Babylon and more to Hunterspoint Avenue.
I'm sure there's a reason why they don't run full service there, I suppose.
Trains from diesel territory will never see the escalators of Grand Central. The DM's are too high to squeeze through the 63rd Street Tunnels (which were designed to fit an M1 and little else), and squishing all the nescescary DM parts into an M7-sized container will be very difficult, so you won't be seeing that in our lifetimes.
I don't know what their deal is with Hunterspoint Avenue. There are trains that go there during the off-peak periods, so it's not like they'd be putting themselves out.
606, 2764, and 506 all deadhead from LIC/HPA to Jamaica before starting their runs east.
2707, 651, and 2741 all dump their passengers at Jamaica before continuing west to LIC/HPA.
In addition, there are two additional trains that run from LIC/HPA to just Jamaica to go to one of the yards there. Those could also easily carry passengers.
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Took Metro-North to work today (I was in a good mood lol). Caught the 3:19 pm express Harlem train out of Grand Central. Funny thing was that the boards said the first stop would be Mt. Vernon West followed by Fleetwood (my stop), even the conductor said Mt. Vernon West would be the first stop. Ended up stopping at 125 St anyway (not that it mattered to me), then Mt. Vernon West.
Caught me an M3 too, only the second time I caught one since I started working up there
In my experience, the boards in GCT will show you the first stop after Harlem-125th Street, considering most trains stop at 125th Street (and usually they typically only receive passengers there).
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Or is there some sort of state/federal subsidy?
It is difficult to pinpoint who exactly pays for the fuel. While it is paid from the MTA's Operating Budget, it is state/federal subsidies that pay that, and subsequently the residents of Long Island/Hudson Valley/New York at large.
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I recently created several different diagrams of Penn Station depicting the various different infrastructure characteristics of the different station tracks. As you might know, not all station tracks are not alike and these various constraints contribute to the overall craziness of Penn Station.
The diagrams were too large to post here (and compressing them down to 800px would be difficult), so I posted them on my site: http://www.thelirrtoday.com/2014/01/dif ... ation.html
Let me know what you think.0 -
It said in the MTA's 20 year plan
In that case, then sometime in the 2035-2054 time range.
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Random question because I'm curious, with most Montauk Branch trains terminating in Speonk because that's where signals end, when they finally do finish the project to set up signals further east, from then on will most trains on the line run full service (at least distance wise, not necessarily making all stops) between Jamaica and Montauk? From what I understand, the only reason trains terminate at Speonk now is just because of lack of signals.
It would just be interesting to see more service going further east.
That's not necessarily the reason. There is far less ridership east of Speonk then there is west of there. While there are riders who rely on the the branch daily (like me) there simply just isn't enough equipment and crews to run every train out to Montauk and back. Sepeonk will stay the main eastern terminal since that is where the ridership ends.
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See how you did right here: http://www.thelirrtoday.com/2013/12/late-friday-links-1213.html (that has the results for round 2 and the station trivia)
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There have been 0 perfect scores so far.
Look for landmarks (grade crossings, overpasses), paint schemes, track layouts, etc. Some are tough, but they are all doable!0 -
I'm surprised people are having such a hard time with them. There are some tricky ones there, but if you really know your LIRR stations they should be no problem. The real tests are the ones along the Oyster Bay/West Hempstead/Hemsptead branches where all of the stations look very similar. Those ones separate the men from the boys!
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Let's see if you know your LIRR stations: http://www.thelirrtoday.com/2013/12/lirr-station-trivia.html
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I filled it out again. Keep 'em coming, I like this LIRR Trivia game!
There will be one more round on Thursday (an that set will be different in spirit), but that will be it for a little while. I only use the trivia posts when I don't have enough time to make up new ones, and my load is lightening up next week, so you won't see too many for a little while. But keep checking!
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If you liked the LIRR trivia last time it went around, there's a new version here: http://www.thelirrtoday.com/2013/12/lirr-trivia-1210-round-2.html
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and 
at Jamaica.
has been known to collect information to suite their own agenda... 
, at least have them. 
Look for landmarks (grade crossings, overpasses), paint schemes, track layouts, etc. Some are tough, but they are all doable!
LIRR And MNRR Random Thoughts Thread
in MTA Railroads
Posted
For those that may be particularly interested in which LIRR trains operate with M3's, it appears to be very random and without pattern.
Check this out for more:
http://www.thelirrtoday.com/2014/06/which-lirr-trains-run-with-m3-equipment.html