RR503

Totally unrelated, but as of yesterday, the renovated culver stations already smell like pee.

Why can't we have nice things.... 

Interesting -- thanks!

I always took my tidbit of misinformation to mean something about it being an external contract, not that it was a revenue car.

Thanks for correcting me!

I believe it's for revenue contract, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong. 

Calm down. Most of the Montauk Cutoff isn't going anywhere -- it's just 235 feet that they're tearing down to make ESA easier. And trust me. Those so-often-hated folks at real estate are making sure that the ROW won't go away.

https://www.stb.gov/FILINGS/all.nsf/d6ef3e0bc7fe3c6085256fe1004f61cb/8b7bd8d6caf34fd585257ebd0067e9a0/$FILE/239186.pdf

See page 10 for more. 

They're also not tearing down all of it -- just the part that is in the way of the leads to arch street. 

And now, for the coup de grace:

_______________________________________________

Service Change  Posted: 04/26/2017  6:18PM 
 

Due to signal problems at Queensboro Plaza, the following service changes are in effect:

Northbound  and  trains are running with delays.

Some northbound  trains are running on the  line from 57 St to 36 St (Qns).

Allow additional travel time.

_______________________________________

Poor 63rd street...

Gotcha -- thanks to you both!

Why did the IND change Nostrand avenue from being 1 level to 2 level during construction?

Interesting -- thanks!!

Would it be possible to install new?

Why aren't there crossovers going SB between W4 and Bway Lafayette on 6th? It'd make weekend GOs so so so much easier....

Also what market would that serve? Just transfer at Port Authority for the if you want UES. 

Totally unrelated, but what would y'all say is the minimum headway at which skip-stop can work without causing delays?

I said it before and I'll say it again, tearing down the elevateds was a huge mistake.

 

What they should have done was first BUILD the alternative that they proposed of doing to replace the elevated BEFORE tearing it down in the first place.

I highly doubt anyone here disagrees with you. I absolutely agree, for one. But, as is said, hindsight is 20/20. We have to live with the mistakes of our forefathers. Complaining doesn't fix them.

The is the result of the terrible merger of two independently good ideas.

 

The should have been continued to Brighton Beach, intersecting all crossing subway lines, and the old Myrtle Av El should've been replaced with a subway to the Montague St tunnel. In fact I believe the original crosstown line was more of a waterfont line - Brighton Beach - Franklin Av - QBP - Astoria.

Agree 100%. And yes, the BMT crosstown was to be a more waterfront line. See here: https://www.google.com/search?q=bmt+crosstown+line&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS616US616&hl=en-US&prmd=imsvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1keiX6pjTAhVLuxQKHU3nAwgQ_AUIBygB&biw=1024&bih=653#imgrc=z6zK1swK_HE0AM:

This is very similar to what I would do with a rebuild of the Myrtle Avenue EL, with the line after Navy Street going into a tunnel and joining the Montague Street Line at either Jay-Metrotech or Court and then running to Astoria (most likely now as an extended ) with all platforms (including on the existing Myrtle EL) at 600 feet.

 

I agree on the , which is something I was addressing in the past with a new Myrtle-Brighton line that would be a new "Black " which would have some (relatively) minor rebuilding of the old Myrtle EL (mainly the upper level of Myrtle Avenue and Sumner Avenue) with it jutting to a new stop at Bedford-Nostrand to allow for transfers to the and then coming into and absorbing the current Franklin Avenue Shuttle that would be rebuilt to two tracks and 600' platforms along that portion and then running as a new Brighton Local to Coney Island (with the and flip-flopped along Brighton with the becoming a 24/7 Brighton Express to Brighton Beach since this "Black " would become a 24/7 Brighton Local).

 

I would agree with you in terms of a Myrtle-montague connection if the el still existed, but now that it's gone, I really can't see that happening.

As far as the black V goes, however, you're repeating the mistake that the IND made all over again (see my post on the last page). Basically, you're routing local passengers away from where they want to go, creating massive transfer flows at express stops. I would be for this if the Q kept its place, and if the black V joined the G, giving it LIC access instead of routing it into the back of beyond on the Myrtle Ave line. One thing us railfans need to understand is that just because it once existed and we now miss it doesn't mean it is the best plan for the present. Things change.

It would I believe actually allow the Crosstown line (assuming it were done correctly) to be able to go to Manhattan when needed and/or allow the to when needed go via 8th Avenue south of West 4th and re-join the Culver Line after Hoyt-Schermerhorn and/or when needed run with the to Hoyr-Schemerhorn and then after running between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Jay Street with the go back to its regular line.

Crosstown to 8th, yes (that's yet another pesky merge at that interlocking) but all this about rerouting trains makes no sense. N/B G trains and E/B A/C trains and vice versa go in the same direction, so a train going from 8th to HS to Culver would have to reverse once on crosstown. So basically, I don't see how this helps with reroutes.

Same way it is now except with crossovers to the at Hoyt.

Why? What useful service does that provide?

I thought Crosstown was built to allow a connection from Queens Boulevard to Culver in the event of an emergency in Manhattan that would require a reroute. Nonetheless, Crosstown was the only line to be built that didn't run into Manhattan.

Not really in event of in emergency. The IND (and the BMT with their crosstown line before it) anticipated a lot of Brooklyn-Queens commutation, so they thought that QBE trains could go to Manhattan, serving that market, while QBL trains could go to Brooklyn. While they probably anticipated the flows to be a bit uneven, they almost certainly did not forsee the fact that almost everyone would get of Brooklyn-bound QBLs at QP in favor of Manhattan-bound QBEs. This situation continued until the City built the 41st street cut, allowing Broadway trains onto QBL, partially rectifying the problem. When the 63rd st connector opened, the got cut back to Court Square, allowing all 4 QB services to go to Manhattan. 

And yes, I'm aware that was TMI 

Yup! That's a remnant of the old Fulton St el which trains used up until 2004ish. Look at this to get an idea of how things once were:

https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer

Most travel is in-state, but given NYC's size, there should be sufficient demand for better cross-river options. I actually think the Gateway project should have a station in Bergenline. I would've sent the there but the route doesn't work out, though a future 50 St Crosstown line that crosses both the Hudson and East Rivers is another opportunity. Yes, it's expensive, but do we really want more buses going through the Lincoln Tunnel and an expensive rebuild of PABT?

 

As for Brooklyn, I prioritize a Nostrand Ave extension, an SAS connection with Fulton St, and then a new Utica Ave line. From an engineering and political standpoint, extensions of existing lines are significantly easier. Also, the line could use the extra capacity that an actual terminal station would provide.

With you as far as NYCS to NJ goes, but not a gateway stop. Can you imagine the train backups in those tunnels if ones are stopping? 

I also think that we should take our medicine and rebuild Rogers. I know its political suicide, but you gotta do what you gotta do. 

True, but Bergenline Av right now supports frequent bus service and ultra-frequent jitney service.

 

I would assume a northward would not have many through-riders from Brooklyn to Queens, so it relieves Queens. Relieving the in Brooklyn I would leave for the Second Avenue Subway (via the extra tracks from 21st to 9th St)

 

This is false. RBB is legally City property and the City has not made any moves to sell it.

Most Bergenline buses/jitneys are intra-NJ, making me question the size of the NY commutation market in that area.

I also think that brooklyn needs more than 30tph of relief from 2nd Ave, half of which will be going to Fulton. There are just so many unserved areas in the borough, not to mention southeast Queens.

It is that in my view.  There are many to me who are fearful of those "not their kind" coming in and infiltrating like what happened in some areas in the 1950's and '60s with what was known as "blockbusting" in those days (even though today that likely would never happen because many are much wiser now).  Many of those to me are those who still think of the subways like they were in the 1970's and '80s and in many cases likely were victims of crime then and/or are children of such victims of that time. 

Then there is the matter of those who have property that illegally encroaches the line.

 

+100 here. People are xenophobic by nature, and especially so if they live in relatively segregated communities like FH Gardens. Again, I find it depressing that such a small number of people can veto something that is for the greater good (I'm looking at you right now, BHA), but that's a failing in the planning process, not in RBB plans. I also think that politicians will try to sell Woodhaven SBS as 'adequate,' making any subway proposal more difficult to float. One way I could see this gathering more political momentum is promising to extend the subway to the JFK terminal area; that would get the monied elite on board.

I really think that any new crosstown like that should be across 86th, which would get you to about Astoria Blvd in Queens, and from there just straight to Flushing. So like making the a boomerang shape. But this would require untold billions of money.

 

The reason I want a new cross-river tunnel is because PATH is essentially at capacity. Even with the new signalling system they will be at their absolute limit. The nice thing about 57 St is that it's way denser of a job corridor, plus if you really wanted to you could bundle a line to Secaucus in with it as well (so that we can finally kill the to Secaucus)

Yup, that's why I said 76th ish

I don't think the should be extended. It's arguably over cap in BK, so I think that a 10th Ave line needs to work both to relieve Queens and Brooklyn. Using the does nothing for the latter, just continues the status quo, so I think that's not how it should be built.

Point taken abt PATH. Problem with that route though is that you miss all the dense employment and residential centres on the waterfront. That's​ where growth will be. If I was to do a 57th St PATH, I'd add a second set of tracks from JSQ to Hoboken junction, and then run north under Weehawken before turning east.

As for the RBB, if there's a will, there's a way. FH hates it, so until some community south of Forest Park shows a real need for it to happen, I can't see it coming.

Has a full on 10th avenue trunk line ever been considered? In theory, it could connect to Queens via a 76th ish st tunnel, and to Brooklyn via a connection either to the culver line, the LIRR Atlantic branch, or maybe a Utica Ave line.

This is given we have infinite cash, of course.

Thoughts?

34 St is not actually that dense of a corridor.

 

This is neither here nor there, but I believe that the PATH should build a new Bergenline Av subway from Journal Square to where the HBLR turns west, and then turn east across 57 St. 57 St is central enough to reach Columbus Circle and Lex/59, and a station at 6th Av could connect to 7th Av.

Much easier to extend north from 31st and 6th, IMHO. You could either squeeze the existing tracks below the 6th Ave exp, build a newer low level station, or use the provisions for an east side extension at 14th st (?) to get there.

8 minutes to/from Coney Island and 8 minutes to/from Kings Highway during rush hours actually which means 4 minutes between each train total

That's 3.75 tph/track, or one train every 16 minutes on each track.

Speaking of the Concourse line, what are express speeds like on it? I've never ridden in RH/PD so IDK. 

Would probably just crash into the platform edge.

Well I mean in *theory* you could put it on the middle track and run it as far as 242 in the north, or Dyckman in the south. Then you avoid platform edges until....scrunch.