RR503

Either way, the has to be extended to 9th Avenue.

Explain?

Because I'm sure there will be those who want any new line that serves Howard Beach (closest station to the Airport) and the Casino at Aqueduct to serve lower Manhattan that some still consider to be "The Financial District" even if we know better.

Both those stations have the . Riders North of ozone park can transfer to the or , or ride south and take the . If they want more Lower Manhattan access, they can push for an extension of the to OP and a devotion of the to Rockaway terminals.

The load button on the bottom right corner. Click, choose the file, and you're all set.

Dear God please don't EVER post an entire JSON file again. My hands hurt from all the scrolling.

 

And just upload the JSON to the brand new subway website. It's pretty easy.

I would do it, but with the becoming the full-time line between Whitehall and Rockaway Park and the moved back to Astoria 24/7 (with the being the part-time line to Astoria and to 96th/2nd the rest of the time). 

 

 

I still don't see the logic behind this, sorry. Whitehall can only turn a few (7?) tph, and lower manhattan riders already have access via the line, which will always be faster than taking the QBL local there. Furthermore, if you end the at Astoria, you're eliminating direct access to a yard, complicating operations and clogging the West End line with OOS trains. Extending the doesn't involve any yard swapping, and provides the Rockaways with more frequent service. The only drawback I see with the extension is that one doesn't have easy access to the 7th avenue lines. I'd say because the area is straddled with the 6th and 8th avenue lines, it's OK. 

The Rock Park doesn't go to Midtown right now as it is. The only serves the Rock Park branch five times during rush hours, so this would actually be an improvement (considering the is the actual designation of the Rock Park ).

In the purest sense, you're right. But if the RBB is rebuilt, I still think it would not only be easiest but best to extend either the or down there, which also solves the fumingation problem at 71st Ave.

 

If you can give me a case as to why your plan is better, I'm all ears, but until then, the above seems best.

Yes. Also you'd be denying RBB riders a one seat ride to Midtown, thereby eliminating any gains from the route. 

They kind of won't

 

CI to Atlantic, local.

becomes shuttle train from 59th to 95th street. 2 trains run, one on each track.

96th street - 63rd street, local. service is doubled, extended to CI, and made local in Brooklyn.

Astoria - Queens Plaza shuttle.

service increased

local in queens, replaces as local east of 71st.

I see your point, but that means only the is stopping at Queens Plaza on the local track since the would not join until 36th Street.

 

The problem with the or any other 6th Avenue train as the Rockaway Beach Branch is it doesn't stop in lower Manhattan, which to me is important. That is why I previously had the idea of the moving to QB to be the RBB between Whitehall-Rockaway Park and the returning to Astoria (with yard runs on the running in service via the West End line to wherever such would drop out) as a 24/7 line and the being the second line to Astoria on weekdays and running late nights and weekends to 96th-2nd.

 

 

RBB commuters who want to get to lower Manhattan can take the .

 

I was thinking something along these lines:

Unchanged

via bypass

Beach 116 to Metropolitan avenue, via QBL local

Extended to 179th street

Up 2nd avenue (so you don't have to deal with the crossovers south of 42nd) or via bypass to Port Washington. I like that idea.

One question is how will the cover Astoria, QBL exp and QBL local and still fit into 60th Street...

Finally,

to 14tph and 9th Ave.

 

As far as convincing PWers that subway is the way to go, wave the lower fare in their face, and point out that there will be trains every few minutes. Also make sure to put very new looking cars in all the renderings.

How would tunneling under the LIRR work? That sounds like a PITA...

With CBTC, how many combined tph will QBL express and the bypass have?

Okay, I get that people like the  . TBH its my favorite numbered line. I get it.

 

But we really need to stop with the whole "finding outlandish ways to bring back my favorite line so I can see that 9 in a red circle again" thing...

 

I couldn't agree more. 

 

However, there is something to be said for express service between, say, 137th and 96th (157th to 96th is too far). You have a center track in that stretch, and one could run locals from 137th yard to cover service losses. (I'm thinking maybe 2/3 of trains from the bx would go express..?) 

This would help reduce crowding and travel times. 

On a slightly different thread, has the MTA ever considered extending either the or to 179th street? Then the could run on the express tracks beyond Forest Hills, and local trains wouldn't get so backed up because of fumingation.

That's exactly the problem with your proposal. You're forcing riders at local stations east of Roosevelt to stay on the , which makes all these local stops you mention, or force them to make a three legged trip ( (M)/ , , ) if they want the 6 Avenue express, thus overwhelming the . Then if the overcrowding delays the , you've now messed up the too when it merges at Queensboro Plaza.

 

This exact phenomenon occurs daily in Boston on the Green Line between Park and Government Center; its the only way to go from the Red to Blue and causes delays and overcrowding on that section which then spills over to the entire line and its branches.

 

If 6th Avenue is more popular than 2nd Avenue as you suggest, then it would make sense for the express to 6th Avenue to remain on the more popular route, which is QBL proper.

Points taken, but the question still stands: how do QBL local riders get to 2nd Ave at all? to 51st? Then you're suffering through local stops, as you say. 3 legs? Bostonian problem. / to the to the ?

 

With this, you're really inconveniencing east side riders. In my version, there are connections of sorts to everywhere. I see the circularity here. It's really a pick your poison problem. I honestly don't know anymore.

 

Someone in another thread brought up the idea of making the a QBL local. Thoughts?

Then having a 6th Av service on both the bypass and QBL will gum up the works.

 

The distribution should be supported with the bypass service pattern; for the West Side, take the local. For the East Side, take the express.

Yes, but the QBL 6th Ave is a local. I doubt that many -- if any -- people will choose when the is an option. It also helps by taking the load of Manhattan bound commuters off of the and onto the .

 

In response to your other post, point taken about merging.

 

But as for those who are going to 6th Ave, of course they'll choose the bypass. Why sit through a bunch of QBL local stops when you don't have to. And by definition, both proposals will relieve crowding at Jackson heights.

  

I still favor a rerouted or for the Rockaway Branch. I do like the suggestion to run both the and V local on QB past 71st/Continental, because it seems to me like the easiest place to make the connection between the main QBL and the bypass tracks would be on the local tracks in between 71st and 75th Avenues. That way, the can continue to serve the local stations after 71st Ave and the V can run on the bypass. I'd include stations at Woodside (of course) for the transfer and another station in Rego Park at 63rd Drive. That's a very busy area with a lot of foot and car traffic.

Why three locals? And why create delays at in three places (71st Ave, 75th Ave and Union Turnpike) by having the go to Jamaica Center?

I like the RBB idea. It solves fumingation at 71st ave also, which is a BIG +

 

Both to you and to pringle505, I don't like via bypass, because of a lack of connections in Manhattan. You want to make the fast service useful for the greatest # of people. should use it, with the becoming QBL normal express, and all other routes staying the same. 

 

And also, what is the need for the on QBL. It makes no sense. 

If the Staten Island tunnel was cancelled later then it originally was, the tail tracks would have been extended farther.

 

However, funding needs to be included in the 2020 capital program to extend those tracks, cause 10 tph is ridiculous. Not only can we extend capacity along 4th Avenue, we can improve service along Broadway and 4th Avenue.

 

My main issue is Queens Boulevard. That line DESPERATELY need either a bypass line or service reroute of the and .

 

Return the as a part time route during rush hour from 9th Avenue (or 2nd Avenue) via 6th Avenue local (some trains operate will originate from Jamiaca Center to "buffer" or lag the trains along 6th Avenue so that the has space), runs via 63rd St with some via 53rd St, then to the new bypass line with stops at Roosevelt and Forest Hills, then Briarwood where it connects back to the to 179th and to Jamaica Center. Now the only main issue with this is 6th Avenue capacity.

 

Sometimes I feel that people here make up schemes JUST to ressurect the train. 

I agree about the bypass and the tail tracks. Changes need to be made. However, creating a new 6th ave route is ridiculous. Get the new capacity from 2nd ave when phase 3 is finished. 

 

Also, Jamaica Center can't turn that many trains. 

[i made some changes to what I put above]

Hmmm. Could you get rid of the at night (and maybe on weekends too) and run the Astoria-CI local? Then you have

96th-CI exp (via Sea Beach) weekdays

96th-CI exp (via Brighton) all times

71st - 95th lcl all times

Ditmars-Whitehall/9th avenue lcl. Late nights/weekends extended to Coney Island (via Sea Beach) (maybe via bridge too?)

IMH(and biased)O, my proposal is a lot simpler and easier than CenSin's. No city hall mess, and simpler service patterns.

 

The real problem is the weekend and late night service. The current configuration with three services feeding into Broadway actually works quite well, but is thrown out with the following the up SAS. Losing the Broadway / QBL connection is not great, since riders definitely want Broadway over 6 Ave service on the weekends. 

Hmmm. Could you get rid of the at night (and maybe on weekends too) and run the Astoria-CI local? Then you have

96th-CI exp (via Brighton)

71st - 95th lcl

Ditmars-CI lcl (via Sea Beach) (maybe via bridge nights/weekends?)

But then you are screwing over passengers at Roosevelt Avenue who transfer from the buses and the       to the   en masse. That is also the only transfer point between the    and  , without backtracking, under the current scenario.

 

The   can serve the local stations between 179 Street and 71 Avenue, with the  now running express all way to 179 Street, helping people who want a faster trip to/from their connecting bus there. Passengers can always connect across the platform at Kew Gardens between the    and  .

 

I keep the   on QBL proper because I think that more people at Jackson Heights would want 6th Avenue service than 2nd Avenue service. 

My problem is that the way you've set things up, QBL riders don't get easy 2nd avenue access, and QB bypass ones don't get good rest-of-manhattan access. Switch the and and you patch some of that up.

In response to your points:

QBL bypass will stop at 61-woodside, allowing riders service.

riders wanting 6th avenue can...stay on the . 

riders can either transfer to the or just stay on into Manhattan, as the is never *too* far from the 6th avenue lines. 

 

I see your point though. I will ruminate. 

Why not switch the to Bay Ridge and the to Coney via West End?

Becuase why? Explain the need.

 

Also, the would presumably be a local, giving West End riders longer rides to Manhattan. This is to say nothing of the tortured journey of trains using the Montague Street tubes through Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan. 

After giving this some thought, here is my idea on how to work Second Avenue to meet the growing demand:

 

- extended to 71 Avenue on weekends

- 96 Street to Coney Island - all times via Bridge

- unchanged

- route unchanged - weekdays

- service extended to 95 Street during off-hours

 

The reason behind shifting the to the Second Ave line is obvious, as is the keeping the current route of the .

 

Under my proposal, the would run 24/7, with expanded service to match the current combined service levels of the and . On weekdays, it would run to Whitehall St as it currently does. Weekends and late nights, service would be extended to 95 Street to replace the , which would no longer run during these times. In regards to the oft-mentioned yard issue, if the can deadhead the entire length of the BMT Culver line to access Coney Island Yard, there's nothing preventing the from doing the same.

 

To replace service in Queens, train service would run its full-length line 19/7. Looking at the upcoming Canarsie tunnel closure, I feel that riders will fight to retain that Myrtle Ave - 6th Avenue direct service after the construction work wraps up in 2020. Also, by running the in lieu of the , Queens Blvd local riders still retain their one-seat ride between Queens and Manhattan.

 

Naturally, there are serious downsides to this. There's the lack of a direct yard for the expanded , which I briefly touched upon previously. That will add to the trains' mileage. Also, with the loss of train service, not only would the have to be beefed up to match service demands, it would force more riders to transfer at 57 Street due to a lack of Broadway express service on the Astoria line. However, I think these problems are outweighed by the overall benefits, which include more service along Second Ave, faster service on the Broadway local and the Queens Blvd local (of course, that's barring any construction-related slowdowns). 

 

This has been said before. Whitehall can't turn nearly enough trains to allow the to replace the . You'd have to change the (W)'s terminal. 

I would keep the    on QBL, for the connections they provide. The  would be the Bypass express to Midtown East, also stopping at Woodside

That makes no sense. People using the bypass want connections too, which is why I think it would be much better to put 1 good connection train on the bypass (the ), one on the main QBL line (the ), and 2nd avenue trains (with eh connections/destinations) on the main QBL. Bypass passengers wanting to go to normal midtown stay on the or transfer to the at 63rd, and those wanting to go to Midtown East transfer to the at 21-Queensbridge or Roosevelt Island. Then you aren't screwing passengers on the (supposedly) faster line with mediocre destinations/transfers. 

 

Make sense? 

I'm going to assume you're talking about an extension via HHE. If anything the priority for a local extension should be RBB, since it has a lower cost/rider for sure. The services would thus be divided as follows.

 

QBL local: local train to 71st, local train to Howard Beach via RBB (doesn't really matter which one)

QBL express: express all the way to 179 St and beyond, express to Archer Av and beyond

Bypass: turquoise running from Second Av via 63rd St to 179 St, using local QBL tracks east of Forest Hills

 

This way the no longer has to merge onto the local tracks east of Forest Hills, and the service patterns are relatively neat and tidy.

Agreed, but I say turquoise gets QBL Express, and runs via bypass. That way you aren't making the fastest trip the one with the worst connections. (Basically what I said above)

Just extend the regular ...

If QBL bypass happens, 2nd Ave shouldn't get to use it. Reroute the or there, because connections from those lines are *so* much better than from 2nd Ave. The can use the freed up express slots on normal QBL