TMC

Most of that gentrification is not springing up on the Fulton Street Line though, it's along the Broadway El and Canarsie Line in Bushwick. In East New York, it's centered along the Canarsie and New Lots Lines, not the Fulton Street Line. The amount of riders at present, and with the rate of development so far isn't going to overcrowd Fulton.

The problem I have with the Rockaway Beach Branch is that the alignment doesn't have such a good built environment around it, so you're sending 2 services (in your case) down a branch with mostly single-family homes and parking lots. Upzoning is the natural response, but why here? Why not do it around the existing stations? We haven't saturated the capacity for housing around most subway stations yet, so why build a line so reliant on new development?

That 3 stop branch is still stronger than the entirety of the Rockaway Peninsula. I don't think it's fair to consider an area a transit desert, when they also have several bus lines, and under my proposal, the prerequisite is that the LIRR Far Rockaway Branch is extended over the existing trackage to Rockaway Park, operated as a regional rail branch. This means it would get similar service levels to the subway, with a subway fare, just connected to the LIRR network, and going towards Jamaica via Locust Manor. Trips to Midtown would take only 4 minutes longer, and trips to Brooklyn would be much quicker via the Atlantic Branch. P.S. Not really fair to call areas with bus service a connecting bus ride to the subway or other rail line a "transit desert". My point is that the Rockaways are too weak of a branch to send subway capacity onto. I don't think any extra tunnels onto the Fulton Street Line are a good idea, as the line doesn't have enough demand to have a trunk worth of service. Severing the Rockaways from the system, and grafting it onto the LIRR is more of a reliability benefit than anything, you gain more ridership from making the rest of the system more reliable and predictable (i.e convenience), while the peninsula doesn't lose anything.

2nd Ave really has to be split into 2 separate lines, one using the current subway, carrying the and , and another, running under 3rd Ave in Midtown. The upper portion is up to debate however.

Vibes-based transportation planning™.

They could just take the bus up to the Liberty Ave El, I don't see them as a priority for any reorganization of part of the system, it's not a hefty chunk of ridership to be worth bending over backwards for.

Tunnel, now they get a free transit hub in a sense.

My suggestion wasn’t along the entire corridor. My take is that the northern portion of the RoW is extremely meh for any kind of rail service. The benefit of coverage on that route doesn’t pan out, it’s mostly missing-middle and SFH, with auto-oriented commercial zones. I just prefer abandoning the entire cut-off and reactivating LIRR service to Rockaway Park from its current Far Rockaway terminus, a route that is only 4 minutes slower to Midtown on current schedules, and could definitely be made faster.

Cranberry is at capacity under its current permutation, but of course, de-interlining solves that issue. You're right that Fulton doesn't have the demand for a full trunk level of service, but the bifurcation of the has implications to the rest of the system as well. Any delay on the can easily propagate in some magnitude to the rest of the B Division, save for the L.

As far as I know, the capacity constraint at Forest Hills is due to the process of cleaning the train at the platforms, which seems rather optional. The general track layout doesn't necessarily limit capacity below 30 TPH. So, an easier solution is just... not cleaning the trains at Forest Hills, do that at Jamaica Yard, or the tail tracks under 75th Avenue.

The issue then exists, what are you connecting? They aren't any secondary CBDs or activity centers in Eastern Queens except for Jamaica and Flushing. Any new line going on that RoW has to be judged by its speed into Midtown Manhattan, and the ridership it can pick up along the route, of which there isn't much. It's all SFH development, which shouldn't be changed any time soon, as there are areas closer in that should be redeveloped.

That's why they'd get LIRR service re-extended to Rockaway Park, the "roundabout route" is only 4 minutes longer under the current paradigm, with speedups and modern padding, it would likely be a great deal quicker, while making the rest of the system run better.

It was a good thing all of those Els came down, especially 3rd Ave in the Bronx. Looking at those areas now, and Midtown Manhattan, there was too much core saturation, that barely any capacity was lost under a modern operating paradigm. Along 3rd Ave in the Bronx, the neighborhood can support a light rail line at most under its current built environment. A subway would be overkill, with a functioning regional rail system. In many places, the subway just isn’t a good use of existing capacity, such as the Rockaways. The numbers can be run for the costs of running IND Rockaway versus the costs of running LIRR Far Rockaway plus the demolition of the properties needed for my solution to work, and I believe they come out positively in favor of me.

You just proved my point, barely anyone uses the line right now, they are the least used stations in the system bar-none. Just like the 3rd Avenue El and other elevated lines, it deserves to go. It doesn’t serve an important area. I won’t repeat myself for how access to JFK should be handled, but I will say that airport access is not the most important thing in the world. Core-access and strength however, are, which is what my proposal aims to do.

Going off of data, the stations south of Rockaway Blvd towards and in the Rockaways are the least used in the entire system. I’m not saying the train is hurting the area, I’m saying it’s hurting capacity systemwide (combined with my views elsewhere on how service should be run). My pitch is re-establishing LIRR service along the peninsula, as an extension of the Far Rockaway Branch so that they get something at least, not stranding them entirely. It would be run like an S-Bahn type of service. And travel times would be comparable to the A into Midtown and major locations in Brooklyn.

You are 100% correct, I am insulting the customers of the Rockaways. Jokes aside… I maintain my stance that the riders just don’t matter when it comes to making decisions about capacity. The contribution that tiny peninsula has on the core strength of the region is little to none, compared with the benefits to core strength that running better service on existing lines does. The coverage is nice, riders may like the service, but network coverage should never be a primary argument for keeping/adding/extending lines in my opinion. As for the JFK, I prefer extending the Lefferts Branch out to Jamaica. Casino passengers don’t contribute that much, looking at pre- and post-COVID statistics. It’s likely that most going to the casino drive because they aren’t locals to the area, maybe even the city. I’m sorry, but the Rockaways really do deserve the short end of the stick.

This is true, although my proposal avoids reducing Forest Hills to a branch, which is the part I do not like about Queenslink (As well as the G).

I still do not get the fixation on coverage… We’re here worrying about a couple-thousand people on a tiny peninsula.

Because that’s the truth, it increases capacity on the Fulton Street Line, which isn’t possible maintaining the current setup. So if the goal is increasing capacity, then yes, there is no more capacity for them to be served. That’s okay, they are so unimportant to serve, I literally do not care what happens to them.

My point is that it’s not important to fixate on saving time from the Rockaways, because the ridership on that peninsula is so minute, it doesn’t effect anything. I am literally willing to kick local interests to the curb here, to make the rest of the system run better. It doesn’t really matter what happens to them.

It’s not a lie though?

You are thinking about this in terms of half-century old railroading practices. It doesn't have to be ran this way, and because they are run this way, the stations within NYC on LIRR and MNR carry comparatively low ridership numbers compared to parallel subway service. The connection may have been justified in the moment back then, but it was also the fault of the LIRR, and other US railroads for keeping with the status quo, and not evolving their practices to compete with the car (and plane, but that's not relevant to the LIRR). That is the reason they went bankrupt, failure to innovate and recognize the situation in front of them. Nowadays, we have examples of what a commuter railroad should be doing around the globe, and it's easily adaptable here. Cheaper service? Modern commuter railroads often use fare zones to set city travel fares equal to subways and local buses. More frequent service? Even on the LIRR today, and especially around the globe, it's not rare to have commuter rail lines run every 15 minutes, even on single track lines (given you have enough sidings). 15 minutes is about the peak frequency of the A in the Rockaway Peninsula, so nothing is lost on that front. They just have a windier trip through Cedarhurst, but it shouldn't be seen as more indirect. They gain more transfer opportunities along the way at Jamaica, and with competent scheduling, trains should be faster into Midtown than the current service.

That's exactly what I'd tell them: "Sorry, no capacity"

If you mean running via the Atlantic Branch, yes. It would just be an extension of the current Far Rockaway Branch of the LIRR. It would be operated as a inner S-Bahn type of branch, along with how the rest of the railroads should be operated, with trains running every 15-20 minutes. It doesn’t give them a faster commute, and cuts off service to Broad Channel, but that’s not a bad thing in my book. A couple thousand on a small island, and another couple thousand on a barrier island is not a compelling case for faster service. It should just be separated to help the rest of the system run better, now that the A would run exclusively to Lefferts.

I don't like branching lines off of Queens Blvd, it'd be reducing service to Forest Hills, and the RBB at that point becomes a mere branch with the sole purpose of coverage. That'd why I'd just go with no-build or a dogbone past Forest Hills, extending both locals, and sending all s to Lefferts, while QBL locals go to each terminal on the peninsula, likely running 20 TPH total, 10 TPH per branch.