shiznit1987

Speaking of "Grand Central Madison", I noticed on OpenRailwayMap that there are tail tracks down to 39th St. How hard would it be to connect those tracks to the existing east river tunnels and create a loop, thereby sending almost all LIRR trains to Grand Central. 

16 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

 

While I continue to have mixed feelings about restoring service onto the RBB, I would like to see a real solution to the two-headed mess called Woodhaven and Cross Bay boulevards. I don’t claim to have the solution, but if it can involve some sort of improved bus, bike or rail transportation that will encourage more people who drive on Cross Bay/Woodhaven to leave their SUVs at home, then I’m all for it. At least if rail is restored to this corridor, the right-of-way doesn’t have to be built entirely from scratch, unlike many other, better candidates for subway extension in Queens (though some new tunneling would be required to connect into the existing system, of course).   

But again, I have mixed feelings. And I do think there are better corridors that merit an extension of the subway. The problem is, almost all of them would have to be built entirely from scratch. A potential Queens Super Express or an  extension to Rosedale/Laurelton would likely not be, but they would still need some new tunneling to connect to the existing system. 

IMHO, living right along Woodhaven myself, I'd prefer a light rail that makes the same stops the Q52/Q53 do now with Woodhaven Blvd station converted to an express station. That truly would cover all the bases IMHO. I don't think that Eastern Queens should see subway extentions unless there was some massive increase in total subway capacity into Manhattan. These ideas of sending the // further into Queens don't account for the fact that the trains are already saturated and any extention eastward would either just pick up the same riders or simply overwhelm the system. Instead, there should be light rail lines along the LIE, Union Tpke, Sutphin, Merrick, Hillside, Lefferts, Woodhaven, Northern, etc, connecting to the subway to both speed up service and boost intra-boro transit capacity. 

42 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Happened to glance at the Sunday website of the Daily News. There’s an article about the old Rockaway Beach LIRR branch. The jist of the story is that reactivating the rail line is not gonna happen, period. Looking forward to hearing from you rail fans and your take. Carry on.

Honestly, it's not. The area it runs thru is either reasonably close to the subway network or has pretty decent bus service. I can think of several more worthwhile subway/LIRR extentions than RRB. 

Is there any way you could speak about not cutting back QM15 service? I'd rather they expand the saturday schedule to include sunday as well and keep the current weekday frequencies the same. Those buses often do have great ridership. 

19 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Lol.... Forget it... Folks along the Babylon branch engages in, and will continue to engage in way too much bitching for any sort of a balancement or consistency... They're like the Pittsburgh Penguins of the LIRR (analogy meaning, the LIRR brass, at minimum, is in bed with those folks & by hook or by crook, they'll end up getting their way)....

I thought the Ronkonkoma branch was the "favorite son" of the LIRR, seeing as almost all it's trains run express from Penn > Woodside > Jamaica. Babylon trains often are the ones slowing down to make Forest Hills and Kew Gardens. 

At any rate, common sense would say that rather than a total mixup of schedules, that they stick with a simple plan: Babylon, Ronkonkoma, Huntington, Long Beach and Port Wash trains all either serve Penn or GCT. Hemsptead and Far Rock alternate to provide half-hourly service to Brooklyn. Make track 1 @ Jamaica the "Penn Station" track, Track 2 the "Grand Central" track and Track 3 the "Brooklyn" track. 

 should go to 96th St with the  going to Hillside 179th (QB Express),  goes to Astoria and  to Forest Hills on the local. Zero merges on Broadway.  

 QB Express,  QB Local.  turns around at 57th St and  share 53rd st tunnel which is fine since  is now local. 

On 5/1/2022 at 10:06 PM, mrsman said:

This is very good.  I have two recommendations:

I think it would be better to have  as a QBL express and  as a QBL local.  This eliminates some of the merges in the Queens Plaza area that still exist in your plans.

 should provide service to the Bedford Park Blvd, at least during rush hours.  There is no need to sacrifice the Concourse express.

 

 

 

I agree. I'd run the  to Bedford Park Blvd rush hours and middays while the  runs express. 

If the  were to run local on QB, it'd involve merging on Broadway, which I'm trying to avoid. Rather, I'd offer something that looks like this: 

 Sea Beach -> Manhattan Bridge/Broadway Express -> SAS 

 West End -> Manhattan Bridge/Broadway Express -> SAS

 Brighton Local -> Manhattan Bridge/Broadway Local -> Astoria

 Brighton Express -> Manhattan Bridge/Broadway Local -> Astoria (Rush Hours and Middays only)

 QB Local -> 53rd St -> 8th Ave Local -> Montauge Tunnel -> 4th Ave Local to Bay Ridge 

 QB Express -> 63rd St -> 6th Ave Local ->  to Culver and  to Metropolitan.

Since the  would now have the 8th Ave local tracks all to itself we can run 30tph on both the local and express of QB with half of all  trains turning at Whitehall or 9th Ave Brooklyn. 

/\/\/\ Instead any of that why just run the  to Bay Ridge and call it a day?  My idea increases Brooklyn capacity. 

1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

I suspect it would be next to impossible to have the Broadway local tracks go over the Bridge UNLESS you completely severed the current tunnel level tracks at Canal and sent the Broadway local to a new level under the current express tracks. 

The Broadway Local tracks would turn under Walker St, then follow the tracks of the former Nassau St - Manhattan Bridge tracks. 

This is a simplified version of my South Brooklyn re-arriangment combined with Queens Blvd redesign:

Step 1: The Broadway Local is routed onto the south side of the Manhattan Bridge and the Broadway Express is routed onto the north side, so that all 4 Broadway tracks feed into the Bridge. 

Step 2:  The 6th Ave Express is extended under Water St thru Lower Manhattan then under a new tunnel then taking over the LIRR Atlantic Branch. The Utica Ave subway is brached off of the Atlantic Branch to Kings Plaza. The LIRR Atlantic branch is tied into the Archer Ave Subway once it reaches Jamaica.

Step 3:  The  takes over the lower manhattan section of the  and runs thru the Montague tunnel and 4th Ave local to Bay Ridge

Broadway Service: 

 125th/Lex via SAS -> Broadway Express -> Manhattan Bridge -> Sea Beach via 4th Ave Express 

 179th/Hillside -> QB Express -> 63rd St -> Broadway Express -> Manhattan Bridge -> West End via 4th Ave Express 

 Forest Hills -> QB Local -> Broadway Local -> Manhattan Bridge -> Brighton Local 

 Astoria-Ditmars -> Broadway Local -> Manhattan Bridge -> Brighton Express (truncated to Prospect Park on weekends and late nights)

6th Ave Service: 

 168st/Wash Hts -> CPW Local -> 6th Avenue Express -> LIRR Atlantic branch -> Utica Ave Elevated to Kings Plaza 

 168st/Wash Hts -> CPW Local -> 6th Avenue Express -> LIRR Atlantic branch -> Parsons/Archer 

 Forest Hills -> QB Local -> 53rd St -> 6th Avenue Local -> Culver Line 

 57st/6th Ave -> 6th Ave Local -> Williamsburg Bridge -> Myrtle Ave Line to Metropolitan Ave 

Queens Blvd Service:

 Parsons/Archer -> QB Express -> 53rd St 

 Forest Hills -> QB Local -> 53rd St 

 179st/Hillside -> QB Express -> 63st 

 Forest Hills -> QB Local -> 60st

8th Ave/CPW Service: 

 207th/Inwood -> CPW Express -> 8th Ave Express -> Fulton Express to Rockaways/Lefferts

 205th/Norwood -> CPW Express -> 8th Ave Express -> Fulton Local to Euclid Ave

 Parsons/Archer -> QB Express -> 53rd St -> 8th Ave Local -> Lower Manhattan via former  line and Montague St tunnel -> 4th Ave Local to Bay Ridge

Reasons Why:

8th Ave, 6th Ave, Broadway, CPW and Dekalb are all deinterlined.

South Brooklyn riders wanting 6th Ave service can still transfer at Atlantic Ave

Better Queens Blvd Local service w/ full time  and  service.

Service thruput on Broadway Line increased. 

Utica Ave line built as El to lower costs

Taking over LIRR Atlantic Branch means SE Queens riders now have a faster connection to Downtown Brooklyn plus an express that does not use Queens Blvd in case of service disruption. 

 now has a purpose at it's other end and should provide better 4th Ave local service than current  

Maybe I'm missing something, but considering one already gets a free subway-to-bus transfer and virtually zero people that ride this thing aren't already coming off the subway or LIRR doesn't this make the move pointless?

So I saw on abc 7 Janno Lieber talking about redesigning the turnstile to make farebeating harder. My question is during the 1990s you started seeing HEETs appearing everywhere and then suddenly around the early 2010s the MTA started taking them out. Why is that? Should the MTA reconsider going back to using HEETs as the default turnstyle?

A couple more suggestions regarding Central/Western Queens: 

The MTA needs to stop it's obsession with long routes. Instead, keep things simple: 

Instead of merging the Q21 with the northern section of the Q29, make the section of the Q47 north of Jackson Heights/Roosevelt merge with the northern section of the Q29 so you have one route running down from Marine Air Terminal -> 74th/75th sts -> Jackson Hts/Roosevelt Sta --> Roosevelt Ave -> Hampton St -> 90/92nd Sts to Queens Center Mall. This is a much more manageable route. 

Keep the proposed Q63 on Broadway the whole way between 21st st and Queens Center Mall. Divert the Q66 down 48st to stop at 46st-Bliss  so as to a) cut the Q66 short b) improve reliability and c) give an extra subway connection on top of the Northern Blvd  

Keep the Q80 as a route running between Jackson Hts/Roosevelt Ave Sta and Cooper Ave-Glendale using the existing Q47 routing. 

Scrap the Q68 altogether. Send Steinway Q101 buses over the Queensborough to Penn Station Manhattan. Ditto the Q69. This will take massive pressure off the  

Ditch the current B53 plan. Instead, run the B53 from Marcy Ave-Williamsburg  to Jackson Hts-Roosevelt. via Kent/Wyhte Aves -> Franklin St -> Greenpoint Ave -> Roosevelt Ave. This better serves Brooklyn/Queens connectivity. 

The B62 doesn't need to go all the way to Astoria Houses. Beef up Q69 service and have people connect at Queens Plaza. 

16 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Most express buses in the Bronx run hourly on Sundays. In fact, all of them do except the BxM7, which serves Co-Op City. Everything else is hourly, even the Riverdale express buses, though the BxM1 and BxM2 combined provide service every half hour.

I'd take it. I'd LOVE for hourly QM15 service on Sundays

Here's my two cents: 

I'm in Middle Village, and from my vantage point, it's pure cuts all around. The Q53 does in fact need to go to Woodside, as there is a ridership base there. My suggestion is to keep running down Broadway past Roosevelt then turn left on 62nd st, turn right on Roosevelt, then post up right on 61st where the green cabs are now. Buses can then zoom down 61st to Broadway and then take Broadway straight down. The Q52 needs to make the trek as well.

Not happy about losing the Q11 down Woodhaven. The locals are needed to help with the overflow. If the Q53/Q52 ran more frequently that'd be one thing, but I'd keep both the Q21/Q11 on Woodhaven. 

The Q80 will carry pure air. Almost 80% of the ridership on the current Q47 south of Jackson Heights is along Calamus Ave/79st. Add to that no one wants to trade going to Jackson Heights for Grand Ave-Newtown . This route will bomb. 

Not sure what having the Q47 run along 69th st accomplishes when the proposed B57 is right along side it the whole way. 

Having both the Q58 and Q98 the way it's set up is inefficent. The Q59 should take over the Q58 into Corona/Flushing and become a SBS in it's own right. The current Q98 plan will simply be the Q58 SBS. So basically :

Q59 SBS Williamsburg Bridge Plaza to Flushing Main St via Grand Ave, Corona Ave, Roosevelt Ave 

Q58 SBS Myrtle/Wyckoff to Flushing Main St via Fresh Pond Rd, Grand Ave, Queens Center Mall, LIE, College Point Blvd.

It's about time they made the Q60, Q66 and Q69 into SBSes and sent them deeper into Manhattan. They should run to Penn Station ala the Q32. Make dedicated bus lanes on the Queensboro Bridge. 

The express bus cuts are a travesty. How is it the Bronx has express routes that run half hourly on Sundays but Queens, a much more subway poor borough, has to scrape for non-rush express service?

Splitting up the Q38 seems logical except I worry here to the MTA will look to 

19 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

This is basically what I would have done, but IN ADDITION to Phase 2 that I would actually have run to at least 125/St. Nicholas with a connection there to the 8th Avenue line that would allow for greater flexibility.  I would do it where in this case the would cut off from possibly south of 116, with the 116 station running 116-119 on Second Avenue while the LGA run would stop at 116th Street/1st Avenue-Pleasant Avenue OR would cut north of 116th Street with a stop at 124th Street/1st Avenue before going the route you suggested, possibly as part of a longer-term extension that could run to Willets Point and take some pressure off the .  

That's all well and good, but right now the best we could hope for is possibly a split between one branch going to 125th/Lex and the other running to LGA. I'd love a 125th Crosstown line (heck, I'd send it to Teterboro and build a park n ride there) but that's going to be like #177 on the MTA's subway expansion priorities, especally since Central and West Harlem is so subway-rich anyway. 

I know it's not a consideration but I think extending the SAS to LGA should be on the table. I'd build this in lew of terminating the SAS at 125/Lex. You can have the line run down 125th to Randalls Island, then basically paralell the GCP all the way to the airport with a transfer spot at Astoria Blvd. Astoria voters would love it since it would give the area a second subway option as well. 

Personally, I think the letter of a train should be determined by it's destination route regardless of it's orgin. In that case, any train going to 96st/2nd Ave should be signed as . My thing is if you are at a Sea Beach stop and are going to Manhattan even when that "" train slides in you're going to get on it since you pretty much know it's going to go to Manhattan (where else could it go?). The same is *not* true once in the city. People are in a hurry/in their own world and it's much simpler to see  and think "Second Ave". Going the other way, all SAS-Sea Beach runs should be signed as  since if i'm at 72nd/2nd Ave going downtown am I really going to question it? Yet, the poor guy at 34th St whose had a long day and needs to get home to Bensonhurst would sure appreciate seeing that big yellow  rather than having to listen to a garbled annoucement about "Q via Sea Beach"

Maybe it comes from living along Queens Blvd and all the re-routes that come along with that, but in my experience going into the city people generally just "get on" and figure it out, especally since if say the  is on the  or other sillyness you can walk two avenues. OTOH if you get on the wrong train leaving Manhattan you can end up somewhere totally different. 

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This is definitely very interesting.  I do have a few questions:

 Broadway Exp - 4th Ave Exp - Sea Beach

 Broadway Exp - 4th Ave Exp - West End

 Broadway Local - Brighton Local

 Broadway Local - Brighton Express

Do you change any of the northern terminals for these lines?  Currently, of course, we have N and W to Astoria, R to QBL and Q to 96th.  Do you envision any change to that to relieve the  merge along the Broadway line, like sending all expresses to 96th and perhaps changing the frequency of trains so that there is more Astoria W service?

 

Thank you for your questions and detailed consideration of my plan!

Here's a more detailed layout:

Broadway Service Plan (Operating hours are "All Times" unless otherwise denoted)

 96st/2nd Av - Broadway Exp/Bridge - Sea Beach.  

 179th St/Hillside - QB Express - Broadway Exp/Bridge - West End. 

 71st/Forest Hills - QB Local - Broadway Local/Bridge - Brighton Local. 

 Astoria-Ditmars - Broadway Local/Bridge - Brighton Express. Weekends and Late Nights service turns back @ Prospect Park, Brooklyn

Queens Blvd Service Plan (Operating hours are "All Times" unless otherwise denoted)

 53rd St - QB Express - Parsons Archer

 53rd St - QB Local - Forest Hills. Late Nights service terminates at 57th St/6th Ave

 63rd St - QB Express - 179th/Hillside

 60th St - QB Local - Forest Hills 

6th Ave Service Plan (Operating Hours are "All Times" except where denoted):

 207th/Inwood - CPW Express/6th Av Express - Water St/Atlantic Ave tunnel - Atlantic Branch LIRR - Utica Ave El to Kings Plaza

 205th St/Norwood - CPW Express/6th Ave Express - Water St/Atlantic Ave tunnel - Atlantic Branch LIRR to Jamaica

 Coney Island via Culver Line - 6th Ave Local - 53rd St - QB Local to Forest Hills. Late Nights terminates at 57th/6th

 57th/6th Ave - 6th Ave Local - Broadway/Brooklyn - Myrtle Ave line to Metropolitan Ave. Late Nights Metropolitan to Myrtle Av shuttle.

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Nassau St Subway - Montague - 4th Ave Local to Bay Ridge 

Will  still begin at Parsons/Archer and be extended to Bay Ridge, or will  have its "northern" terminal in Manhattan? 

 

The  will continue it's current service pattern to Parsons/Archer. 

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So  will head to Grand St. and then follow the MTA proposed routing of the SAS to Water Street and then via new tunnel to Atlantic Ave.  Does this mean no plans for SAS in Lower Manhattan?  Will there be a transfer to other trains at Fulton?  Are there any plans for SAS other than the existing portion north of 63rd?  Will  be a super express that only stops at the current LIRR stations along Atlantic or are more stops envisioned?  Does  replace the  train east of East New York?  How will  fit into the Archer Ave subway?  

To your first point: Yes, my new trains follow roughly the original SAS route for Lower Manhattan. As far as SAS to Lower Manhattan I've always been of the belief we can find room for it on Nassau and this plan doesn't change that. With only  service right now a Lower Manhattan SAS can turn around at Chambers quite easily. Unfortunetly, Water St is too far for a realistic Fulton St tie-in but keep in mind the  is going to have access to a tremendous amount of trains @ Atlantic Terminal. As far as the Atlantic Brach of the LIRR, the Nostrand Ave station will be discontinued with the only two stops in Brooklyn being Atlantic Terminal and East NY. My idea is I want the  to take a load off the  in Jamaica thus to keep this competitive I want the  with fewer stops. As it stands taking a  train to 53rd/7th would be a 9 stop journey from Supthin/Archer while my new  service is also 9 stops to 53rd/7th Ave. As far as tying into Archer Ave the idea is to build the connection around where Bolding's Landing is now with a new tunnel. The Archer Ave subway will be extended to Archer/Merrick with a 4 track terminal ala 179st and 8 turnback tracks on two levels for maximum capacity. 

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168st/Wash Hts - CPW Local - 8th Ave 

WIll A and C also be the local south of Columbus Circle?  If not, how would A and C move to the express tracks and not interfere with the running of ?  I would assume that A and C will run along Cranberry tunnel to the Fulton line in Brooklyn as current, while the  takes over the Broadway BMT tracks south of WTC to terminate at Whitehall, as you posited earlier.  Does this mean a "Canal Flip" along the 8th Ave tracks, with  running express between 42nd and Canal, and then flipping to the local to reach  WTC and then Rector and Whitehall?  This would also presuppose closing City Hall  and Courtlandt .

 

New switches will be installed between 50th St and 59th sts on the 8th Ave line to allow for the  and  to go from the Local to Express tracks. At 50th St, the station platforms will be extended over the existing local tracks to meet the current express tracks to serve  and  trains.  and  trains will run express in Manhattan south of 59th St to Brooklyn while the  will have the 8th Ave local all to itself meaning no merges @ Canal St. The Lower Manhattan Broadway Line will be taken over by an extended  to Whitehall St giving it a better terminal than today's WTC. 

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All in all this is very interesting and it seems to accomplish a lot with very little construction.

That's the goal  !

Thinking about it some more, I'd like to amend my plan:

The Broadway Local tracks will still be tied into the Manhattan Bridge, so that all four Manhattan Bridge Tracks feed into Broadway. The service pattern would look like this:

 Broadway Exp - 4th Ave Exp - Sea Beach

 Broadway Exp - 4th Ave Exp - West End

 Broadway Local - Brighton Local

 Broadway Local - Brighton Express

 Nassau St Subway - Montague - 4th Ave Local to Bay Ridge

Now that Southern Brooklyn is taken care of, the  trains are extended down Water St thru Lower Manhattan to a new tunnel to Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn where they take over the Atlantic Branch of the LIRR. The  curves off down Utica Ave to Kings Plaza while the  continues to Jamaica where it is tied into the Archer Ave Subway. Archer Ave is extended one stop to Archer/Merrick to a new 4 track terminal ala 179st with turnback tracks. The service pattern looks like this:

 207th St/Inwood - Kings Plaza (CPW Express)

 205th St/Norwood - Merrick/Archer (CPW Express)

 168st/Wash Hts - CPW Local - 8th Ave

Benefits:

-Dekalb Ave and Columbus Circle are de-interlined. 

-Southern Brooklyn passengers can still get 6th Ave service at Atlantic

-Much needed relief for Queens Blvd and SE Queens with the new  service

-Utica Ave subway can be more easily completed as an elevated, helping speed construction and lower costs

IMHO, it really makes zero sense not to make the Interborough Express go to LGA. You're completing two major wish list projects in one fowl swoop. Also, about the Jackson Heights-Roosevelt Ave issue: They're going to have to invest in a mezanine extention ala-Court Sq. There's no where to place an LRT station around Roosevelt Ave (I used to live by there). 

32 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

So what happens to the  and  and the Broadway Express tracks in this scenario? What's going to run on the Sea Beach and West End lines in South Brooklyn?

Wouldn't it be easier to just do this?

The  and  run down the Sea Beach and West End respectivley via the Bridge/Broadway Express

This plan of mine involves several re-arriangements to improve Brooklyn service:

First, the Broadway Local tracks will be connected to the north side of the Manhattan Bridge. This means that now all four MB tracks will feed into the Broadway Line. The  will become the Brighton Local with the  being the Brighton Express. This allows for Dekalb to be deinterlined. 

Second, the  trains after Broadway-Lafayette will be tied into the Nassau St Line with the  running to Jamaica Center and the  running through the Nassau St subway/Montague Tunnel to the 4th Ave local, heading to Bay Ridge. The  will be retained as a Metropolitan Ave to Chambers St service to allow for those who still want to travel from Broadway-Brooklyn to Lower Manhattan. Also, CPW will be deinterlined with the  going to 207th and the  to 205th via CPW express.  trains run to 168th via CPW local

Third, with the Lower Manhattan section of the Broadway line now severed from the rest of the route, my proposal is to connect the  train to the Broadway Line tracks at World Trade Center, making the 's terminal Whitehall St. This is critical since having a three track terminal for the  will enable it to run more service if the day ever comes the Queens Blvd bypass is built. 

My personal pet peeve: when everything on QB is running express in a certain direction due to works they should make the  local along with the going the other way. My reasoning is that its a slap in the face to have to backtrack to Roosevelt or Forest Hills then wait another 15 to 20 minutes for the R that you inevitably end up missing. 

Here's some low-hanging fruit extentions that I think the MTA should consider: 

Extend the  up 1st street in Mount Vernon to downtown Mount Vernon. It's all of 10 blocks from 241st-Wakefield to the main shopping drag of Mount Vernon midas well serve it

Extend the  to Gateway Center with an intermediate stop at Flatlands Ave. Lots of new housing development in that area and would help to better intergrate that section of ENY/New Lots

Extend the  to Broadway Junction via Eastern Parkway. Gives  riders from Eastern Brooklyn an option to get to the east side of Manhattan. 

Relocate the  past New Lots Ave into the LIRR Bay Ridge branch and extend it to Flatbush/Nostrand with stops at Rockaway Ave, Remsen Ave, Kings Hwy-Utica, Albany Ave then Flatbush/Nostrand. This helps cover a subway desert in SE Brooklyn until a Utica Ave line gets built and helps riders in Canarsie/East Flatbush connect to the / for faster trips into Manhattan. 

Extend the  past Lefferts down Liberty Ave then up Sutphin to Archer/Sutphin-JFK. This gives  riders a chance to connect to all the transit around the Jamaica area. 

Extend the  to Bay Plaza