JubaionBx12+SBS

Most of the LFSA's throughout the city are SBS wrapped if you think about it. I would say that the newest batch of them should be given Sardine Bus assignments when they come in.

I'm interested in seeing if the absorption of the Bx41 SBS by GH will have any impact on the Bx12 operation.

1280 and 1281 are unwrapped as of today's sighting. What are in the plans for these units? Possibly going to KB for Bx39 service?

I don't think any Manhattan routes besides the ones that currently have artics need them. Beside, the M103 should lose artics as far as i'm concerned.

I hate how hard it is to get from areas south of Northern Blvd to areas north of it using the current bus system.

Considering Northern Blvd runs most of the length of Queens, where in particular is this the case?

The is getting more frequent service on weekends now. Trains will run every 8 minutes during midday on Saturday and Sunday instead of every 10 minutes.

uhhh.... 

 

The Bx28 and 38 are too crowded, and they should use artics during the week.

 

The Bx13 should have a Limited stop service during rush hour.

 

The Q10 should be a Select Bus, and we should reinstate the old Q10A, run it in both directions and rename it the "JFK Link"

 

I don't always talk about the Bx12 

I would rather see artics there then on the Bx12 local to be honest but I would also like frequencies to stay as is. 5 minutes AM Rush and 6 minutes PM Rush is the bare minimum for an attractive service and that's where the current Bx28/38 stands with 40 footers.

Yes, but the Q12 is one of the few routes that actually has short-turns noted in the schedule.

 

The use of short-turns is abused by dispatchers/road supervisors.  It completely masks problems, because I'm certain nobody keeps track of any of those used, so as to affect proper scheduling in the future.  "Next Bus Please" and short-turns should really be an anomaly, instead of the norm.

 

But that's part of the whole game, isn't it?

I know for a fact that short-turns are overused on the Bx12 Sardine bus. However, if these short-turns were not being used you would have potentially half-hour wide gaps mid-route which would lead to outrageous crowding and ridership losses as folks either walk to resort to cabs. I'm far more concerned about the erratic or nonexistent headway maintenance on these routes which is leading dispatchers to resort to turning buses around short. 

Based on the ridership conditions on the Sardine Bus, there should be no short turns at all. But when you decide to cut PM service on such a busy route and there's not enough buses out on the road to limit ridiculous gaps from developing you need to cover your ass. The best idea would be to provide the proper levels of service, but with the MTA that's way too much to ask for. 

As far as i'm concerned I'm blaming the Bx12 issues 99% on the PM service cuts the MTA decided to make in April. Between Fall 2014 and then the SBS saw 4 minute headways during the PM Rush hour eastbound and the early PM Shoulder Westbound (likely since the extra trips to accommodate this were pull outs from Gun Hill that needed to be at Inwood between 4:30 and 5:30). But their yearly schedule review in 2015 found that the Westbound buses during the afternoon were not crowded enough to require such a headway based on their guidelines. So they went and cut those trips entirely and the headway rose to 5 minutes (which it was previous to this point). The problem is that the 4 minute headway was put in to satisfy Eastbound demand, which did require 4 minute headways based on the guidelines. So the loss of those buses meant Eastbound service was now underserved for the PM. Now that eastbound trips are slowed down by the increased demand, they are not making it to Bay Plaza in enough time to make Westbound trips when they need to.Therefore Westbound service during the PM Rush sucks as well. The situation would have been far better if they kept things as is instead of cutting service.

I wholly agree with B35 that bus service issues are far more publicized then such with the subway when it should very well be the opposite. Our subway is terrible in terms of on-time performance compared to peer cities with even older systems. Number one priority in terms of transit in this city needs to be getting the subway to a state of good repair and OTP rates that places like London and Paris can offer. However, all the press around transit outside of the SAS debut is dealing with the ridership gains of the subway and losses on the bus. To me there's a subliminal message being sent to riders through this that they should not bother with the buses since the MTA wants to cut into them anyway. The other subliminal which is even scarier to me is that the subway should be given a longer than necessary time horizon on which to correct it's issues because it's "attracting" riders in it's current state. 

I'm not a big nostalgia guy but while we're at it, I would be amazed if 2017 service (in terms of pure TPH levels into Manhattan) was equal to such in the '50's.

All I know is that conventional approaches to keeping buses on schedule and alleviating overcrowding don't work when it comes to the Sardine Bus Service. If MTA were to be smart and add more buses they'll intentionally run them in packs so that half are sardine cans while the other half are carrying little more than air and then point to the average loads as reason to cut back to square one. So riders along Pelham Pkwy/Fordham Rd are SOL here. 

Also, intentional bunching (which I believe is going on with most of these low-headway routes) doesn't relive crowding at all from a rider's perspective. When bunching goes on most of the waiting crowd tries to squeeze on the first bus that shows up which is usually crowded. So most of the riders are on a packed bus and thus are experiencing overcrowding even if you have empty buses behind. Also, what analysis of bus rider behavior would lead anyone to think masses of commuters would seek out the trailing buses in bunches?

I've seen a few firsts today with the Bx12 SBS. One was a Westbound bus running drop-off only along Pelham Parkway. Bus had NIS signage up while carrying nearly a full load and would run up past the SBS shelter and local stop poles at Eastchester and Williamsbridge as a signal for waiting passengers to not consider getting on. The other was 2 out of 3 trips in an Eastbound bunch getting short-turned at Pelham Bay. One of the drivers warned passengers at Williamsbridge Road that his/her bus was getting short turned so a swarm of passengers flee to the bus immediately behind (which I happened to be on). The only problem is that the bus all these people flocked to also ended at Pelham Bay which pissed off quite a few passengers with some about to curse out the driver. There was a third bus that was bunched behind these two that did the honors of carrying a crushload into Bay Plaza but it's sad that quite a few passengers had to physically board three different buses to accomplish what the map shows as a one seat (if you're somehow able to get one) trip.

So I'm waiting for a Bx12, and after a bit of a wait (the SBS was a no-show) a local shows up. I get halfway between the Concourse and Fordham Plaza and what do I see? A deadheading Bx12 SBS coming from Kingsbridge Road that goes into service at Fordham Plaza! Good job Inwood dispatcher, you only gave about 200 people a 15 minute wait. No wonder bus ridership is down.

 

I know who the dispatcher is too; he'll send every second or third bus deadheading from Inwood via the Broadway Bridge/225th/Kingsbridge to FP every time there's even a slight delay.

I've seen such a deadhead take place before and my first thought was shock that such would even be allowed.  Whatever games seem to be played aren't affecting ridership levels on that route though. Damn near every bus during the rush was packed to the rafters and for most of the trip as well. I was on 5786 between 5:30 and 6 pm heading east which had a decent SRO load for the entire trip length. I'm amazed that this route can stay crowded for a whole 50 minute trip without emptying out. Even the busiest of routes empty out somewhere.

1. The problem I have a 2nd Avenue subway and with most of the MTA's transit planning in general is that it's not looking at solving the crowding issues from the source. One problem is that faulty ridership stats give the impression that overcrowding is only the result of intense demand from stops close to the peak load point which on the and lines couldn't be further from the truth. As someone who has used the 125th station on countless occasions over the years (mainly to xfer between the and trains) I can tell you that trains generally enter 125 rather crowded during AM Rush and half the train dumps at 125 for the xfer. Not once making that transfer did I think to myself that I would get a seat on the express since Bronx ridership is low. In fact 99% of the time the train whether or was almost full already. Which goes to show that the Bronx ridership alone creates overcrowding on these lines. But have the MTA tell it to you it's the 35,000 boarding at 125 and the 65,000 boarding at 86 which are causing the problems. If anything they just add to the problems but are in no way, shape or form the source of them. The source is without a doubt the Bronx. Each of the , and are pulling six figure totals from the Bronx into Manhattan with hardly any turnover in the Bronx on either line. The station by station ridership totals give a distorted picture as compared to what actually goes on with the Lexington Av Line.

2. Another source of Lex ridership that the Second Avenue Subway does nothing for are the folks transferring from Queens for East Side subway service.  Last time I checked, the crowds that disembark packed trains at 53rd-Lex and disembark packed and at 59th-Lex aren't doing so for the heck of it. Also, last time I checked hardly any of these people are commuting from residential enclaves in Queens to the residential Far East Side during peak work commute hours. Numerically speaking this riderbase (based on transfer estimates) is just as high as the inbound/outbound peak Bronx demand. 

3. So far we've seen billions of dollars spent on a subway extension that a) does not relieve the source of crowding on the line that motivates it's existence and b) does not pull xfer demand away from the meccas that are 59th and 51st. So in other words, initial return on investment is close to zero unless....

4. This is a long con to cut service on the Lexington Av line which will have long term cost saving benefits (although at the expense of Bronx commuters). The MTA can easily point to the individual station counts in the Bronx and the boarding losses within the UES and make the case (although a terrible one) that less and trains are needed. Given that the SAS will not see greater service levels then are being provided to the existing line the loss of trains on a lengthy route like Lexington is easily preferred if it can be made up for with a slight extension of an existing low to mid frequency route. Given the cut happy nature of the MTA I can easily see this happening and this is why I was always against this project and will be closely monitoring the initial performance of it.

A better idea would be to solve and crowding at it's source but the source of everything subway related has to be Manhattan so here we are. Billions of dollars spent for no improvements in the commutes of working class North Bronxites.

I really love how people who can probably take the Bx22, the local Bx12, or the Bee-Line buses over to Fordham all cram on the Select Bx12 at White Plains Road. You literally have people waiting by the hundreds at the SBS stop, even when those buses come 3 minutes apart.

 

Anyone wanna loan me $30 billion to build a subway line?

I'm guessing the italicized is a AM Rush thing since afterwards those things don't run close to 3 minute headways.

On a side note I took the BxM7 into Co-op City from Manhattan so I did my part to reduce PM Rush demand for the Bx12.

I'm becoming quite concerned at the rate in which eastbound Bx12 SBS buses are being short-turned at Pelham Bay. In the past I would see at most one bus in an extreme bunching scenario get turned around but these days they're not afraid to end multiple trips within the same hour at PBP and keep them moving, if that even. I've seen some buses terminate there and just go out of service while the driver chills around. 

As well as 8326 and a few Next Gens.

It's good i'm not out there riding this route today then. The artics are sardine cans most of the time so 40 footers, yikes.

As per BusTime, 8341 is running on the Bx12 +SBS. SMH 

All this extending current routes in the system like need to have several seats..

The NYC Transportation network is in a dire dismay, and needs total fixing.

The is really sitting on a gold mine with cash to create several NEW routes throughout the city.

However, when you get politics into the picture it creates clashes. You have a Democratic governor and mayor of this state and city at times can be in great odds simply because of their history in the federal government and among personal issues. Take these issues out the way. You hire ACTUAL road specialists who can do the work of creating such new bus routes to not only please the masses, but also to deal with the issues at hand.

 

.... New York needs to act like they are a blue state (Democratic) and stop acting like a red state (Republican)

 

... Just my $2.75 rant. Carry on.

New routes where though? There are too many high ridership routes covering Brooklyn to mess with leaving only but so much territory to place these new routes. New routes being sprung up all over the place is what you see with immature bus networks, not a mature one being purposely mismanaged.

This thing will open middle of next year. Let's not kid ourselves.

Should Metro North use double decker trains like LIRR and NJT do to offer extra capacity? I'm a huge fan of double decker trains on commuter services, especially if the agency in question wants to be stingy and not offer low headways.

I'd like to see where these budget cuts have taken place. Sure service has been reduced but I don't see where else the agency had decided to save money. As much as I gripe about the Bx12 and it's nonsense on here, I can't picture a route (in NYC that is) that actually performs better on a 18/7 basis which is not a compliment to the Bx12 in the slightest. The only silver lining in this is that the best improvements that can be made to the bus system aren't thing that should only be offered on cherry-picked high ridership routes since all routes are dealing with slow speeds, bunching and ridership losses or stagnation. 

On a different note, I have a proposal to adjust the loading guidelines for local bus service. Instead of having a set guideline scheme to use, each route has it's own particular guideline load structure that takes into account it's particular ridership patterns and allows room for growth to take place without overcrowding. 

Even then, the general guidelines should be watered down some. 54 people per bus as an average for mid to high frequency 40 ft routes during peak hours is part of why we have such overcrowding even with ridership losses taking place. I would bring the max 40 ft load down to say 48 passengers with high headway routes averaging 30 per bus, bring off-peak standards down to a 90% seated load up to 4 minute headways instead of fully seated up to 6 and incorporate shoulder periods into the off-peak standard rather than averaging it between the peak and off-peak. 

The needs to be revised so that most stations are seeing something better than half the peak service. 

A question I would like to ask is given the successful increase in service on weekends for the which other lines would you recommend for weekend service increases? I think most lines could use one but of course the MTA is going to be picky and choosy about which ones to boost so getting an idea of which ones should go second would be nice.

I am baffled as to why the Pelham Parkway/Stillwell Av stop was added to the Bx12 SBS. For all this time as a local only stop ridership there didn't stand out really and it's in the least dense section of the route. The homes lining Pelham Parkway North over there are rather large for urban area and the families have high incomes as well. Not only that, there was no real news around the neighborhood of such an addition coming down the pipe. What on earth happened to lead the MTA to make this change given the lack of demand currently for such?

 

Current limited-stop buses stop like what, every 8-10 blocks? So you're still skipping around 2 local stops in between each limited stop. I'd say it's no different from the express/local train setup. Maybe on a route like the B35 or Bx36 where the limited stops are fairly close together, it wouldn't be worth it, but even then, in general limited-stop service is usually only offered on routes that are frequent enough that the local riders wouldn't be waiting too long anyway.

I still stand by the thought that if stops were spaced 3-4 blocks apart, most of these routes would see a 33-50% reduction in stops made, thus runtimes would drop significantly. I doubt too many people will be clamoring for LTD service then since the routes that most warrant such already have it. If you shorten the run of a Bx7 or Bx22 for example, the riders will be more than satisfied.

I wonder how many people would be pushing for LTD service on more routes if stop spacing was every 3-4 blocks instead of 2 blocks.