Kacie Jane

At late night headways, the together is 9 tph. That's nothing.

Fair enough, and unfortunately I realized how small a number that was after I posted.

However, keep in mind that just because you have 3 trains each running every 20 minutes doesn't necessarily mean you'll have them evenly spaced every 6-7 minutes. In theory, you could have an arrive at Herald Square at 1:11, an arrive at 1:12, an at 1:13, and an at 1:31, etc.

Obviously it wouldn't be that bad in actuality, but still, merging 3 lines onto a single track will be a grand adventure. (Nothing compared to 5 though... )

They might also just have to deal with a logjam of five different lines operating on the local track between West 4th and Broadway Lafayette ( (A)/©/ (E)/ (F)/ ) for the two hours or so (in some cases less than that) that some of those lines are running (The and © in this scenario would run express from 34th-West 4th and the ( would likely end early to accommodate this). It's not like this would be the case all night, it would only be at the start of the shutdown between 59th-CC and Jay Street-Metrotech.

Errrr... there's absolutely no way they could "just deal" with having five lines on the local tracks. I would imagine the ( © and would all end early to make this work.

Even then, even at late night headways, I question the ability to squeeze the and onto the same pair of tracks. Certainly not impossible, but fairly difficult.

I still have no idea why actual trackage has to be closed for stations to be constructed in these mock scenarios. For instance, I can see them closing Lex-63rd for a bit to fully construct the other side of the station (or even a part of it, like the lower level for instance, but the tracks remain open for service (or anything else going through 63rd) to bypass safely.

 

Look what they're doing for the Culver viaduct, they didn't exactly shut down the entire thing for weeks or months at a time (save the weekend GO or two).

I would say this thread is supposed to be close to reality, at least more so than your average fantasy map thread. Close to reality, but probably still not completely realistic.

So while it's not terribly likely that they'd shut down the through 2nd Avenue for a couple of months, it is possible... Certainly some renovations and construction projects require trackage to be shut down, although as you mention, typically shutdowns only happen on weekends. (I think it's been far more than two weekends that the Culver Line's been shutdown, and there's currently the same situation with the in Upper Manhattan.)

So maybe I could have made my scenario even more realistic by stipulating that the only had to be shut down on weekends, or we could pretend it's taking place in some alternate MTA that has decided to get projects done quicker by shutting lines down 24/7 instead.

It's just a bit of silliness, really. I tried to keep my scenario somewhat realistic, but it's no skin off my nose if other people want to turn the silliness dial up to 11.

I think VWM wins this one. Outside the box, and definitely solves the scenario I posed. TrainFanInfinity, I like yours, too. But keep in mind that in order to turn trains at World Trade Center -- since you can't switch them at W 4th -- you'd have to reroute them via 53rd Street and 8th Avenue. So you'd have to either suspend the , or severely cut QBL service in order to fit the C, E, and F on the 8th Ave local tracks.

(Although now that I'm writing this, I realize you could switch the C and the E, and have the E run express on 8th Avenue. Then you'd have the C and F local to WTC, and the A and E express to Brooklyn. Plenty of room for all four.)

Note that VWM also wins because his had full service on both the Myrtle and the Culver, whereas TrainFan's plan cuts the Culver line short at Delancey.

However, there is a way to provide full Manhattan service on all three lines (Culver, Jamaica, Myrtle). Here's what I would do...

is suspended. The are temporarily recolored orange instead.

service runs from 179th/Jamaica to Metropolitan (via 63rd and QBL express).

service runs from 71st/Continental to Jamaica Center (via 53rd and QBL local).

(You could just keep the as is, and have the take over the Jamaica line instead, but IMHO that would make the F too long and too confusing by having both terminals in Jamaica.)

To cover the Culver line:

service runs from 168th to WTC.

service runs from Jamaica Center to Coney Island via 8th Avenue express.

(You could just keep the as is, and have the run on the Culver, but this way the E is essentially a clone of the F running from Jamaica to CI. Plus, I like the idea of all 8th Ave locals terminating at WTC, and expresses running to Brooklyn, the way it used to be in the '70s.)

The only problem with providing full service to all three lines this way is that the runs far more frequently than the , which could lead to massive switching delays at the Myrtle Ave junction. To help alleviate this, I would:

*Give the F priority at all times.

*Reduce J service if necessary.

*Increase R service to make up for less J service on QBL.

*Reduce Q Astoria service to make room in 60th Street for increased R service.

One last thing in this totally TL;DR post. It occurs to me that to solve the problem of the closed stations, rather than worring about shuttle buses, you could just create an from Delancey Street to Church Avenue. Then the only closed station would be 2nd Avenue, which could easily be served by increased (M21) service. (I'm not worried about the Nassau St stations in my scenario; passengers could easily transfer to the at Broadway-Lafayette to reach lower Manhattan.)

It might be tricky, but here's what I would do:

 

*snip*

I think you did cover everything, but I'm afraid I can only give partial credit. There's a couple of minor flaws, and one major one in your plan.

• It depends on what your definition of "minimal disruption to the (A)" is. The layup track at Penn is only accessible from the express tracks, so I think there would be significant delays having the cross in front of the to relay. Queens Plaza is set up the same way, that's why the terminates at Court Square now instead. You'd be better off suspending the altogether; customers wanting local service on CPW and 8th Avenue can transfer between the ( and at 7th/53rd.
  
• You don't have anything running local on 6th Avenue. This is easily rectified by having the ( switch to the local tracks at 34th and then back at 4th. (Hopefully that switch doesn't break down. *wink*)
  
• You don't have anything running through 63rd Street. (You don't specifically mention it, but the would have to be rerouted to 53rd with the in order to access 8th Avenue.) This could also be easily rectified by rerouting the , although 57th/6th would still have no service.
  
• (The major one) You're not "best serving" the Jamaica and Myrtle lines. Terminating the (Mx) at Essex would be okay, but still not ideal, if the were running normally. But with no service in the Rutgers St tunnels, you're leading Jamaica line riders to a dead end with no transfers. The point of the scenario is to continue provide through service on the WillyB to appease customers, otherwise the switch at W4 would be locked the other way instead.
  

@Kacie Jane if ur so good at fixing scenarios, try making one yourself, bet it would be a good one

Okay, here's my SAS scenario.

As in yours, the 2nd Avenue station must be temporarily closed, maybe not for a full year, but definitely a couple of months while the Houston Street station is constructed. (Grand Street and the are unaffected.)

The obvious solution is to simply switch the at W 4 St, and run it to Brooklyn via Cranberry Street, and this what the MTA does at first. However, within the first week of this service, the switches at W4 start to break down, and the decision is made to lock them in place.

The complicating issue in all of this is that during this same period, the Nassau Street line is undergoing complete reconstruction in order to tie it into the SAS. As a result, rather than locking the switch to allow the to reach the Cranberry St Tunnels, the switches are locked in their current real-life positions, maintaining service, but forcing all 6th Avenue local service to Houston Street and the Williamsburg Bridge.

Long story short:

• The 2nd Avenue station is closed.

• All stations south of Essex Street are closed.

• All 6th Avenue local trains (whether they're called , , or whatever) are forced to run over the Williamsburg Bridge.

How do you change service to best provide service on the Culver, Jamaica, and Myrtle Av lines?

no trains to astoria, terminates @ 57 St

free shuttle bus replaces btwn Astoria-Ditmars and Queensboro Plaza

via 60 St, to Whitehall and QBL Local

Extra service on 8 Av

single track in 53 St tubes

extended to J-179 QBL exp to add to trains

I definitely like this solution. I certainly would not have thought of just single-tracking a train through 53rd, but it definitely works. As I'm writing this, I may have thought of something even better. Obviously, in order to single-track the through the tunnel, you'd have to cut service somewhat, as I think that's a pretty long distance to try to do such a maneuver.

In this scenario, due to a prior GO, the is running northbound through 63rd and southbound through 53rd. So why not just keep it that way, except through 53rd it would be running southbound on the northbound track?

Also, I question the need to cancel the to Astoria. I'm assuming you're doing this to clear room in the 60th St tunnel, but I'm not sure you need that much more room. Rather than rerouting trains, why not just suspend the E and extend the to Jamaica Center?

So here's what I would do...

suspended. All E's en route when the train stalls become either ©s or ®s depending on location.

runs as is with the pre-existing GO, but runs local on QBL to facilitate transfers at 36th St between 63rd Street and 53rd Street trains.

is extended to Jamaica Center.

Due to switch problems at 96th street and 125th street no trains can pass through either junction, how would you reroute service?

I'll give this one a shot; I didn't see anyone besides RookiePhenom try it. I ran into a problem pretty quickly, though. South of 96th Street, I can't find any stations capable of turning local trains. Express trains can turn between 34th and 42nd, but a train using the center track to turn can't get to the local tracks. (14th can be used as a south terminal, but not a north terminal.) So sadly, this horrific scenario would wipe out pretty much the entire Broadway/7th line.

Anyhew, here goes.

242nd/VCP to 137th/City College. Replace by "shuttle" buses south of 137th.

runs in two sections: from 241st/Wakefield to 110 Street, and from 42nd Street to Flatbush Avenue (express from 42nd to Chambers).

suspended. (No shuttle buses, use (M7) or (M102).)

A shuttle bus connects 125 St , 125 St (, and 137 St .

runs in two sections: Woodlawn to 138th St/Grand Concourse, and from 86th Street to New Lots Avenue.

runs from Dyre Avenue to E 180 Street only.

runs in two sections: Pelham Bay Park to 3rd Ave/138th Street, and from 86th Street to Bowling Green.

A shuttle bus runs from 3 Ave/138th to 138th/GC , then to all Lexington Ave stations from 125th to 86th.

Additional service changes to make up for lost service:

( runs weekends and evenings to make up for lost West Side service.

runs local all times to make up for lost Midtown/Lower Manhattan service.

Lolz, that's funny. I actually came on to this thread to post a similar scenario. No offense, but IMHO mine would have been a bit more believable -- there's no way they would build the SAS in a way that would sever such vital links -- but I'll be happy to answer yours.

( service returns more or less how it was from '01-'05 (I think I have my years right there) with the following exceptions:

( service would be suspended. I never understood the point of running both the B and D to 34th. Plus, I'd be increasing C service below anyway, so the loss of the B on CPW would be made up for.

The would stay on the bridge and the renewed would run through the tunnel to reduce confusion.

Non-Manny B/Montague changes:

The runs QBL local via 53rd from 71st/Continental to Broadway/Lafayette and runs 18/7.

The runs QBL express via 63rd from 179th/Jamaica to Metropolitan and runs 24/7 (the E and M would both run local late nights).

(Essentially, the F and M switch places on QBL. The M becomes the full-service line in place of the F since a) it's unaffected by the service change, and B) it's needed to replace the L.)

The is rerouted to the Culver Line, and runs 24/7.

For the Fulton line to replace the rerouted C, there are two options. The obvious one is to just run the A local. The more fun one is to empty out the transit museum and run an the way it was originally intended from Court Street to Euclid.

The is simple. With 3 Av being the closed station, the Manhattan tracks are rendered useless, so trains have to turn at Bedford Avenue. Passengers use the and the (M14) as replacements.

Two shuttle buses:

1) Connecting East Broadway , Grand Street , and Canal Street

2) Connecting York Street and Jay Street/Metrotech

The closed stations and 2 Ave don't get shuttle buses. Why? Because I'm mean.

The Lower Manhattan tunnels are flooded by a water main. The Montague St Tunnel is ok. The South side of the manhattan Bridge is under construction, and you need to re-route the and also provide a shuttle bus for either the or , and no combining. Good Luck!

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding this one. Basically, the south (Broadway) side of the Manhattan bridge is closed, and the Montague tunnels are open but useless.

Essentially, all service to/from Brooklyn has to run via the 6th Ave side of the Manhattan bridge, with maybe one train "shuttling" via the Montague tunnels to Whitehall Street if that station was okay.

The wouldn't be the one to be rerouted, because the MTA always shafts the R, with good reason. (It's a local, and it's Brooklyn section is only 3 independent stops, which pales in comparison to the N and Q.)

Even if you're a big fan of the R, there's still no reason to run shuttle buses for the N or Q -- the only shuttle bus you'd have to run is for the closed lower Manhattan station, and even then you could just have riders use the instead.

So here's what I would do assuming the following things:

• I have to run a full-length .

• The south side of the Manny B is closed.

• Lower Manhattan is closed, but I can turn trains southbound at City Hall and northbound at Whitehall Street.

( suspended.

rerouted to Chambers or Broad (no Midtown/QBL service).

trains run in two sections, Astoria to City Hall via Broadway local, and Whitehall Street to Coney Island via 4th Avenue local.

runs from 71st/Forest Hills to Coney Island via QBL local, 63rd Street, 6th Ave express, Brighton local.

runs from 71st/Forest Hills to Bay Ridge via QBL local, 53rd Street, 6th Ave local, 4th Avenue local.

Lexington Av-59 St to Times Square-42 St is flooded on the Broadway Line.

What would you do?

It depends how crazy you want to get. There are switches that would allow 34th to be used as a terminal, but they're located north of the station. Depending how badly Times Square was flooded, that area might be out of commission, too. According to the track maps at nycsubway.org, the next station south of there that could be used as a terminal isn't until Whitehall Street.

So if we can turn trains at 34th, it's pretty easy. The runs in 2 sections, Astoria-QBP, and 34th-Coney. Then you either suspend the and run the to 34th (with the B running Brighton local to Coney Island), or you shuttle the R in Brooklyn and run the Q to 34th. (Or if 34th can only handle one train, you suspend the Q and shuttle the R. )

If you can't turn trains at 34th, then you have to suspend the Q, shuttle the R to 36th, and shuttle the N to Whitehall. (And curse the BRT for building the Broadway line with so few switches.)

Trains run in two segments-

Between Broad Streets & Myrtle Ave, and between Crescent Street and Jamaica Center. Free shuttle buses replace the line between Myrtle Ave & Crescent Street. Train service is suspended. Trains are extended to Essex Street late nights and weekends until further notice (due to Myrtle no longer being available as terminal due those times b/c of the terminating there.)

You could probably just extend the southern all the way to Metropolitan. I'd imagine the J and M would be infrequent enough for that terminal to be able to turn both, plus then you wouldn't even need the M shuttle.

Downtown

Via to west 4th street

( Via to west 4th street

Via The to West 4th Street

 

Uptown

Via to 59th street

( Via to 59th street

Via to 63rd/Lex then regular routing

 

Suspend all Service in Manhattan and Brooklyn send the to Euclid and the to Coney Island

Minor fail. Downtown/southbound, the switches don't exist for this to work. At W 4th, you can only switch between the 8th Ave and 6th Ave LOCAL tracks. So you could switch a train on 8th Avenue to the F tracks, but there's no switch to get it from the F tracks to the bridge tracks. Your B and D would be stuck with nowhere to go but the Culver or Fulton lines.

(Uptown/northbound, there is a crossover between the 6th Ave express and local tracks located just railroad north/compass west of Broadway/Lafayette.)

Here's my answer to the 53rd Street/7th Avenue question:

north terminal at either 34th or 42nd Street, although the could probably just be suspended

suspended, with its cars going to extra service on the .

rerouted to 205 St/Norwood, runs 24/7 (maybe terminating at WTC late nights). The would have to stop at 155th and 163rd, but it would run express on CPW/8th late nights (the would be local).

stays as is, but serves QBL at least on weekends.

extended to Jamaica Center via Queens Blvd express.

extended to 71st/Forest Hills at least on weekdays.

Thanks for my sign! Turned out just how I wanted!

The only problem is I can't figure out how to use it as my signature... I've tried everything I can think of, but I keep either getting error messages, or it shows up as a link instead of the image.

Any help is much appreciated! :cool:

Could I perhaps get one done in this style for a real but non-NYC route? (One sign, two frames)

540 Squalicum

540 via Lakeway

Pretty please...?