MrQuesada

Sorry, but as an Rider who lives a neighborhood where everyone else is also an Rider- this is incorrect. We do notice the ancient trains and we do complain amongst ourselves about how nasty we are. Most of the "oldest train in the fleet" complaints came after the got R160s. Everyone wondered why the local train had better trains than the express. Especially when the express had trains that smelled horrific and had non of the new technologies. Obviously us railfand know it's because they were 8-car and not 10-car- but everyday riders do not notice that. For a time we did (and I think we still do have) the oldest train fleet. The Ozone Park riders, at the least, are pretty visual. Don't think we don't notice those shiny, yellow poled, newly painted trains. We are ecstatic that the got that R179!!!!

Does anyone know if the train will be returning back to Rockaway Blvd?

Does that really count?

As an train rider this is so incredible to see. Almost every subway line in New York has (or occasionally sees) New Tech Trains. The will finally join this trend. It's been a rough wait. Years of ancient trains. The first New Tech is here, though- and more are on the way! I seriously can't believe it. riders will be able to hear announcements and have working A/C!!! 😭😭🤣🤣

The crawling speeds below Central Park West concern me mainly because the will be receiving CBTC between High St. and 59st within the next few years. If you have a bunch of fast-moving and closely spaced trains in Midtown- what will happen when they reach the timers on Central Park West? Will they slow down and space out- causing a chain effect that slows down trains on Eighth Avenue and Fulton St? That would essentially make CBTC between High St. and 59st much less useful- since it would mainly benefit the and not the .

I'm glad that I was able to open up this discussion on transportation in some parts of Queens. Regardless of whether we get the RBB or not- it is definitely true that the A, J and Z need to be improved. @R68OnBroadway brings up an interesting point on extending the R and making the C express. I see how that can benefit Lefferts riders, but would a tunnel cost too much, and would having A and C trains share the express track reduce the amount of As and Cs? Lefferts riders could always catch an A at Rockaway Blvd. And also, like @Nohacksjustkhaks stated- renovations to these lines would have to be done properly. I don't know if New York politicians have heard of that word before, though. On a serious note, if these renovations are done properly, transportation to South Queens will be improved- even though this transportation would only go to Brooklyn and Manhattan- and not other parts of Queens. That's where the RBB comes in- I think the main issue people are citing is the fact that that the QBL would get more crowded than it is already if the RBB sent riders there. I don't think this should be a cause for eliminating the idea of the line, though - since backing out will lead to a park getting built- or worse, nothing gets built and the RBB becomes more of a crime and insect hazard. There are even bridges along the RBB that are rusting and may collapse soon. This line is a chance to fix these issues and ease congestion on the very crowded North-South Queens bus routes. I would love some opinions on these proposals to try and avoid the crowding on QBL: -1. Creating the "super express" line using LIRR tracks and connect those to the RBB. The only issue I see here is cost and the fact that this would make it harder for the RBB to become a North-South Queens connector. This line would connect to LIC, though-which is becoming an important business district. If there somehow was a way to create a transfer to the Woodhaven Blvd-Queens Center Mall station using moving walkways, though, this plan might work to connect North and South Queens. -2. Making the tracks LIRR and making the fare $2.75 (this is the proposal on Facebook). While it sounds good on paper, LIRR is a bit less frequent and you would have to find a way to connect the RBB to the LIRR system without disrupting the current A services. -3. Connecting to QBL and using CBTC to increase train capacity, reducing perecieved crowds. One question I continue to have this whether or not CBTC would actually help create the room needed for another branch on QBL The demand for a RBB is there- it's just a matter of implementing the line in a way that wouldn't put more weight on the QBL. If the A and J could be helped- they may be able to take Manhattan bound riders- leading to mostly North Queens bound riders taking the RBB.

Thanks for the support! And sorry for the confusion in that plan 😅. That's why it was "not-so-perfect". In the plan I highlighted earlier I meant to say that the E and F would be express and the M and R would be local E- Express to Far Rockaway F- Express to Jamaica Center R- Local to Jamaica-179 (or W if that is better) M- Local to Forest Hills It seems that that plan wouldn't work though since it appears that the stub only connects to the local tracks. My bad. I don't know if it would be possible to change the layout of the tracks during construction though. If not, then it would be harder for me to come up with a plan...

I agree with many of your points, especially the ones about the A, J and Z trains. Sending the C to Lefferts would greatly help Rockaway Riders. There would still have to be a way to speed up the A train though. The sections that mainly concern me are the two bridges that cross from Howard Beach to the Rockaways, and sections from Euclid to Jay St. The A trains also tend to run extremely slow in Manhattan- but CBTC is coming to Eighth Avenue soon- which means that the A will get faster in Manhattan. It also means that we will recieve NTT soon. If we speed up the A outside of Manhattan and send the C to Lefferts- A train ridership would increase- mostly in the Rockaways, but some in Ozone Park. About the J- I again agree with your points. Constructing an Express track would really increase the attractiveness of the line- especially if the new track had CBTC on it and avoided that super sharp turn on to Crescent St. (the line would go over Jamaica Av until Broadway Junction, speeding up the Z). While these solutions do provide quick access to Manhattan- these still don't help trying to get from North to South Queens. I think a lot of the North-South Queens market can't been seen specifically due to the fact that people purposefully go out of their way to not go to North Queens or to South Queens due to how difficult it is via transportation. There is some proof that the market is there, though, both anectodal and statistical. A lot of the evidence comes from the car ridership on Cross Bay &Woodhaven, and the bus ridership on North-South Queens bus routes. The Q10 was the busiest bus route in the city in 2017- and that is mainly because it is one of the fastest North-South bus routes. It carried over 20,000 riders per weekday. Many people here work in Kew Gardens or in areas along QBL (Jamaica, Elmhurst, Briarwood). People also tend to go to North Queens to hang out in places like Queens Center Mall. Most people who take the Q10 Get on in South Queens and get off either in Kew Gardens, or at one of the stops along QBL (the Mall, Jamaica). A lot of airport employees also use the Q10 Because it quickly gets to the airtrain (Though the RBB would go to the airtrain too) The Q41 Is another bus that tries to mitigate the North/South divide by giving us access to Jamaica Station- where we can transfer to A MILLION BUSES and the E train to access the same areas intended by the Q10. The Q41 Only carried 7,000 riders a day- but that number is misleading since a lot of people refuse to go North due to the difficulty. The Q41 is consistently crowded (even outside of Rush hour). More buses that do the North/South include the Q37 (7,000 riders)- and of course, the Q53/52/21/11, which carry over 30,000 riders a weekday. The buses are pretty crowded in Ozone Park- and by the time they get to Metropolitan there is no room to breath. At Queens Center people either stay at the mall, transfer to a bus like the Q88- Or go to QBL to go to some of the areas along North Queens. Again, all of these buses get very crowded- even OUTSIDE of Rush hour. The fact that the buses get crowded outside of Rush hour is proof that people take these buses to get to leisurely activities that don't include working in Manhattan. The RBB diverts these riders to the the same train- since these bus lines listed are all within reach of the RBB. 30,000+(7,000x2)+20,000 makes for over 64,000 riders who take the North-South bus routes daily. This does not include people who drive (again, because buses are full), or people who outright go out of their way to not go to North Queens because of the difficulty of the ride. When speaking about drivers- Woodhaven/Cross Bay continues to be "one of the top North South arteries in Queens" as highlighted in a DOT report. Many pedestrian deaths occur on these streets due to the large amount of drivers. A Subway line would take drivers off of the road and on to the Subway Line (again, to access North Queens), while helping reduce pedestrian deaths The RBB debate is occuring now- so the line either gets built now or a park gets built. One thing residents don't want is that abandoned line sitting there and collecting drugs, crime, and new mosquito species. Outside of improvements to accessing Manhattan- I think the demand for a North-South artery is definitely there. Once CBTC is put on QBL- I also think it will help reduce the impact of the RBB. If the A, J and Z get improved alongside the construction of the RBB- That would help divert Manhattan-bound riders and seperate them from North Bound or South Bound Queens riders. I also haven't factored in people in North Queens who might continue to use the Shoot-In-Shout-Out method to access Brooklyn. If the RBB and the A/J get improved- then people in North Queens would likely take the RBB, change to the A, and get to Brooklyn. I do believe the demand is there.

Hey, so I live in Ozone Park and I read the forum. I just want to give my personal opinion on the RBB from the perspective of someone who would be greatly impacted by its construction. Sorry for the skyscraper of text; I have a lot to say. I hope you can read through the mountain of text since it contains many arguments and a lot of information. First, I want to start off by saying that the demand from Ozone Park residents for the reactivation of the Rockaway Beach Branch is mainly there because of how much the MTA has neglected the A, J, and Z trains. To sum it up: The A train can be SUPER SLOW at times, and often stops in the middle of tunnels for no reason due to timers. The A also features a lovely fleet of ancient trains that smell and require more maintenance. We have some of the oldest trains in the system. Most other subway lines already have at least some New Technology Trains. The A is being treated as if it doesn't matter- which is why we avoid using it- because it can sometimes run very slow and features terrible trains. I can't imagine how unbearable it would be to take the A all the way from Rockaway to Manhattan. It's obvious why Rockaway Residents would want to go for the QBL route instead. The J train is also VERY SLOW. When I say slow- I mean walking speed slow. Even the A train looks like luxury compared to the J. Nobody here likes the J. The rumor in town says that the J stands for Junk and that the train has a brown bullet for that specific reason. The stations along the J (Especially in Manhattan) look like horror movie film sets- and the trains barely get any speed before having to stop again. Even in long sections with no stations- the J train seems to move at 10 miles per hour. The Z "express" service only runs during peak hours and most of us residents haven't even seen a Z train in our lives. They are very infrequent. If you use the J- Chances are you will be late to work or school unless you wake up ridiculously early. If you only look at the NY subway map- then a lot of the area around the RBB is not a subway desert. If you look at the reality though, two slow and ancient-looking train lines and another line that never runs do not make for quick access to the rest of New York City. Again- I cannot begin to fathom the struggle the Rockaway riders go through to get to Manhattan. Most of them drive or take the 52/53 to avoid taking the atrocious A. On good days it takes Ozone Park residents about an hour to get to Midtown on the A. That becomes an hour and a half for Rockaway residents and J train riders. If the A and J were brought up to 21st century standards- and the Z was resurrected- the demand for a RBB reactivation would be reduced- since we would have GOOD subway lines. The problem is that this will most likely never happen. The MTA is more likely to act on a proposal for the restoration of a train line than to speed up Fulton St. and Nassau St. Lines or give them CBTC. We will probably be the last lines to get the technology- in the same way that we are some of the last to get New Technology Trains. The Rockaway Beach Branch appears to us like the best solution- especially since politicians are debating it now. Some people say we should just leave the line abandoned and let it sit there until something happens- but that argument ignores the fact that the abandoned rail line is hurting the communities around the line. People commit crimes and do drugs near the abandoned tracks- and the tracks give the area a bad appearance. They are also breeding grounds for mosquitoes and other insects- which come flying out during the summer. There are times when you cannot walk near the tracks because of the wildlife that has developed there. Leaving the branch like this would only further dilapidate the state of some of the areas near the track. This isn’t just about a subway line- it is about fixing up a part of Queens that is in dire need of revitalization. Our politicians have decided to fix it now- and the four options are a park, subway, LIRR, or a hybrid of subway and a park. One of these will get built. Most people want the hybrid- because it includes the park and subway. Without further ado, here are my rebuttals to some of the arguments brought up against the reestablishment of the RBB as a subway: Note: I am arguing in favor of a subway since no one would use the LIRR because it would cost too much and go only to Penn Station or Grand Central Argument 1: “The Woodhaven and Cross Bay corridor doesn’t have enough riders to warrant a subway” Many people say that the Woodhaven/Cross Bay corridor isn't crowded- but it most definitely is. Most of this area is filled with apartment buildings. To the naked eye- it may look like most of the area is filled with homes- but the majority of these “homes” feature 3 or 4 apartments in them. These “houses” are apartments disguised as full-family homes. When you add the homes in the Rockaways to the apartments here- the population around the RBB is close to that of Anchorage, Alaska. The U.S. Census estimates that there are about 220,000 people living within walking distance of the RBB. This number may be distorted since many undocumented immigrants also live here- but don’t get counted in the census due to fear of being deported. People testify that the area isn’t crowded because the A and J trains become less full when they reach Ozone Park- but that can be explained by the simple fact that most people either think the A and J would be too long of a commute- think the lines are too long- or live along Woodhaven Blvd but nowhere near either line. On top of that- a lot of people here work in North Queens- which means that the A and J wouldn’t work since you would have to use the shoot-in-shoot-out method (going into Manhattan and then shooting back out). The RBB would go to both Manhattan AND North Queens- solving both issues. Since it would be faster and feature New Tech Trains (due to CBTC)- it would also be very attractive to the people living here. It would also provide a quick link the Queens Center Mall- which is arguably the corridor's most popular destination. People would take the train and get to the mall in 15 minutes! On top of the population- there are many businesses in this area- especially near streets like 101, Liberty, Jamaica, Metropolitan, and Yellowstone. The Woodhaven and Cross Bay corridor is not in Suffolk- it is in an urban area. People live here- and businesses thrive here. The RBB would only ADD to the value of these already thriving neighborhoods. People also seem to forget that it wouldn’t just be people in the Rockaways or Cross Bay who would use this line. People would take the line to access South Queens, Brooklyn, and JFK, and to go to the Rockaways in the summer. The line would also connect people to the various businesses along the corridor as well as the casino. The whole "but Forest Park takes up all the space" argument is not accurate either. Forest Park takes up only 1/8 of the entire Cross Bay/Woodhaven route- and that isn’t even including the Rockaways. The other 7/8 of the route is full of businesses and apartments. Arguing that the line isn’t worth it because 1/8 of the Cross Bay and Woodhaven section is parkland is like saying that the 7 train shouldn’t have been extended to Main St. because it has to pass through Flushing Meadows Park to get there (The park is only crowded when the Mets play or during Tennis matches). Just because a line needs to go through a park to reach very thriving neighborhoods does not mean that it should not be extended. Besides, a quick look on Google Earth reveals that most of Forest Park along the RBB has been converted into 8-story apartment buildings. This further proves that people live along the RBB. To those saying that Jamaica Bay is empty- well the rail line crossing Jamaica Bay has already been built- so it wouldn’t add costs to the construction of the line. The main costs would occur while connecting RBB to QBL in Rego Park. There is a reason why Cross Bay and Woodhaven Boulevard is one of the busiest through-fares in Queens. It's not a lucky coincidence. People use this corridor on a day-to-day basis. A train line running directly parallel to this boulevard WOULD be used. Argument 2: “It will make QBL even more crowded!” This is the part I find ironic. If you claim that the Rockaway Beach Branch will have no riders- then how can you say that it will cause overcrowding on the QBL? It is contradicting. Nevertheless- the concerns over this extra line causing overcrowding on QBL are warranted since a lot of people do in fact live along Cross Bay and Woodhaven Boulevard (I am one of the 180,000 - 200,000, not including the Rockaways). Here is the reality, though- there are many lines in this city that carry MORE people than QBL and branch out to MORE places than QBL. QBL carries 460,000 people per day on a weekday and ONLY branches out to Jamaica-179 and Jamaica Center (on the east side). Compare that to the 6th Av Line(B,D,F,M)- which carries 670,000 riders on a weekday and branches out to the Culver Line, the Brighton Beach Line, the Nassau St. Line, AND the 4th avenue Line- or the Broadway Line(N,Q,R,W)- which carries over 700,000 riders on a weekday and branches out to the QBL, Astoria Line, and 2nd Av Line. These stats come straight from the MTA. Are the 6th Av and Broadway lines crowded during rush hour? Yes- they are- but that is just the side effect of having a subway line in New York. Most subway lines will be crowded- and we will have to deal with that. CBTC- which would be completed on QBL by the time the RBB reactivates would help mitigate some of the overcrowding- and it would also increase speeds (making the commute for everyone, including those along the RBB, faster). The potential conversion of Woodhaven into an Express stop would further help reduce overcrowding- since most of the crowding comes from the platform- as opposed to the trains themselves. More overcrowding on the QBL would not be the issue here. If anything- the line would simply become as populated as some of the other lines in NYC. As other subway lines have proven- you can have a subway line branch out in more than 2 directions while carrying a lot of people. This is nothing new. QBL will be able to handle another branch once CBTC comes. A new branch might actually HELP increase train frequency- since the RBB would direct one train line to a new terminus- making trains turnover at Forest Hills more quickly. “The line won’t connect North Queens and South Queens properly because there can’t be a good connection to the A or J!” Yes, there can be. As someone who uses the Rockaway Blvd Station daily- it is literally 1-2 minutes from the abandoned Ozone Park station. Two things could be done: first- an “elevated walkway” could be built connecting Rockaway Blvd to the Ozone Park Station. Humanity has built a bridge that crosses Lake Pontchartrain- so we can definitely handle an elevated walkway from one station to the other. The second and cheaper option would be an out-of-system transfer- which would work since the stations are very close. The J train situation is similar. You can build an elevated walkway to a nearby station and connect it to the Jamaica Av station or have an out-of-system transfer that would require little effort. Planning and constructing transfers would not be a mindblowing task. It would actually be pretty simple. People in North Queens would now be able to get to Brooklyn without using the shoot-in-shoot-out method. “The line wouldn’t be used because it is too far from Woodhaven and Cross Bay Boulevard!” Outside of Howard Beach- the line is literally within walking distance of Woodhaven and Cross Bay Boulevard. I can attest as I have lived in Ozone Park for 11 years. Stations in Metropolitan Av would be especially close to Cross Bay and Woodhaven. And we shouldn’t act like Woodhaven and Crossbay Blvd are the only populated areas in this Queens area. The areas around Atlantic, 101, Jamaica, and Lefferts have a very high population concentration near the abandoned rail line- and those citizens would use the RBB. For Howard Beach residents (and maybe some parts of Ozone Park)- entrances for the RBB could be placed on Cross Bay Blvd- and below ground, there would be moving walkways like those in airports (that speed up)- allowing Howard Beach residents to more easily access the line. NYC has had to connect areas with long walkways before- like those that appeared when they shut down 18th st station on the Lexington Line- or the long pathway at Woodhaven Blvd. We have also seen moving walkways at stations like Court Sq. Again, none of this is new. A walkway would not only allow Howard Beach (and possibly Ozone Park) residents to access the line faster- but it would also allow people to cross Cross Bay Blvd without actually having to cross the road (if the walkway is placed before the payment zone). This would greatly benefit the community. “Other areas need subway lines more urgently” There are more densely populated areas in NY that could use subway lines- but they don't have an atrocious and abandoned rail line near them that needs repair. The fact that there are more densely populated areas also does not mean that the Woodhaven/Cross Bay corridor isn’t dense. Think about it - what would the MTA most likely do?- build a new line from scratch- or reestablish an abandoned line. The latter would be the most convincing plan. The RBB becoming real means removing the trees on the RBB- building a stable platform- and installing the track and stations. Building a line like an extension on the F takes the shutdown of streets, rerouting of buses, digging machines, and a lot more money. We should start with RBB to set a precedent- and then go for more ambitious projects. The MTA spent 2 billion on Fulton Center- so the prospect of spending that much money on a full-fledged line isn’t insane. When RBB is completed- people will feel more incentivized to start work on other subway lines. Also, again, the RBB debate is occurring NOW- we cannot wait until later- or the park will get built. It’s one, or the other, or both. If the subway doesn’t get built, the park will get built- and we will have to deal with a park that does not at all help the community. “LIRR wouldn’t have abandoned the line if it were popular” That was 70 years ago. It is almost 2020. The area has changed greatly- and a lot more people have moved into the area surrounding the RBB. We cannot use examples from long ago to argue against the reactivation of the RBB. “What train do you propose would run along the RBB?” That is a question that is up for debate. Here is my not-so-perfect-proposal - which I don’t mind anyone criticizing. I would run the E on the RBB, the F to Jamaica Center, the R to 179st- and the M to Forest Hills. The E would go to Far Rockaway- the A to Rockaway Park, and the C to Lefferts. The F would run to Jamaica Center to take place of E- which would go to RBB. This would mean that Jamaica would continue to be provided by Express trains. The reason why 179 would have a local train going there is that riders there would be able to transfer to an express train at Union Turnpike. The RBB would have more customers than the small section between 179 and Union Turnpike- so it would warrant an express more than 179st. The R would have a new terminus which would take loads off of Forest Hills-71av- allowing more trains on the local track. My proposal would result in the construction of 6 stations- Ozone Park, 101-Atlantic, Jamaica Av, Forest Park, Metropolitan-Yellowstone, and Rego Park. Each station serves either a commercial center, a populated area, or both. Tl:dr If the RBB got re-established as a subway line instead of or with a park- it would provide service to an area of Queens that greatly needs it (since the A and J are crumbling, and many people in South Queens work in North Queens). The demand is here, the space is there, the QBL will be able to handle it, and the transfers can be made. All we need is the funds to build the line. It can set a precedent for the construction of more lines in the future. This line would provide a vital thru-fare from North Queens to South Queens- and would give tons of people easier access to the rest of New York City. Thanks for reading.