BrooklynBus

As I said, if it isn't excessive, then there must be huge gaps in places on the route which isn't good either. With the bunching, the SBS buses were still arriving every four minutes. The locals were much less frequent and a little more crowded. Yes buses are relatively empty everywhere except for beach buses which are overflowing. That is not good management. Perhaps the summer schedule needs to take affect two or three weeks earlier with extra service on beach routes and less service on routes such as the M15.

One person here in particular has criticized me for writing much negativity about SBS without actually using the service that much. Well, yesterday I used the SBS four times as well as the Second Avenue subway and these were my impressions. First of all, I was disappointed in how slow the SAS traveled. It seemed like the top speed was about 15 mph with the trip between the last two stations exceedingly slow. I also read about all the wonderful artwork, but didn't see anything worthwhile at the station level or at 96th Street, the only station I got off at. Both bathrooms at 96 Street were also out of order which is inexcusable. As far as SBS, I was impressed at how frequent the service was. I think I didn't wait for more than four minutes for any of the trips. I used the M79 twice for very short trips and the M15 for longer trips. I was disappointed that my friend and I twice encountered problems with the fare machines. Once it was out of paper, but the second machine worked. The other problem was more serious. My friend's unlimited card yielded a receipt that was only a quarter inch long. Either it was out of paper or the machine jammed. The second machine said "just used". The driver waited for us and told us just to board. We had an extra old receipt that was one hour forty five minutes old. So we took our chances. Could we have been fined after two hours? What is someone supposed to do in that instance? The longer M15 trip was from 79 Street to Delancey Street. I didn't time it but it was reasonable. The biggest problems were two delays because of multiple lane closures for construction and the Queensboro Bridge and Midtown Tunnel traffic to a lesser extent, none of which the MTA could do much about. We saw all M15 SBS buses bunched two at a time and all buses had more than half the seats empty. The bus lanes were not in effect and at no time were there more than three or four people getting on and off. The time if any saved by prepaying your fare seemed negligible and I doubt the buses were much faster than the Limited. The amount of service seemed excessive unless there were parts of the route where wait times were excessive. So although I was pretty satisfied with the service we received, I still question if SBS is worth it. I might feel different if I used it when the lanes are in effect or if the buses were more crowded. I still think that having multiple problems with the machines on one day is excessive but I didn't miss any bus because of it. It also makes you wonder why the MTA can afford to run buses more than 50 percent empty in Manhattan, while people on the Q35 and Q53 going to the beach have to miss multiple buses to get to the beach because of inadequate service.

It's not exactly the same with a subway. If you have your MetroCard ready and there is an empty turnstile and you don't get a "Please swipe again", the only extra time of going through the turnstile is negligible. With SBS, you have to look for the machine which sometimes isn't where you expect it to be. You have to read the instructions. Press start and then it takes a s cond or two for the receipt to come out. There also is a greater chance someone is in front of you than with a turnstile. I also didn't mention the time lost when the eagle team makes its checks. But thanks for seeing my point.

What would you have done prior to 1969 if you were riding buses then? No MetroCards and no exact change. And you had to wait at least ten seconds for each fare to count and register (before they ended the counting part.) That means it took from 15 to 30 seconds for each passenger to board. That doesn't count those who had to fumble in their wallets for change or bills. I remember standing on the sidewalk with three people in front of me and having to wait several minutes to board. I think if you had to go through that they would have had to lock you up in an insane asylum. Patience is something you obviously don't have. I remember when I was in Hawaii in 1984. The first think they told us was this isn't New York. When someone tells you "right away" here, that means 20 minutes.

So according to you n So according to you, no one should ever use a bus without first checking BusTime. Good luck with that one. And yes you are not making any sense. The fact is you have a greater chance to miss an SBS bus than a regular bus. I am not saying that is a reason never to have to pay your fare before you Board which seems to be the way you are interpreting my comment. On the other hand, you make it seem that ever single stop which has SBS HAS 30 people getting on and off which is not true. There are many SBS stops with only one person getting on or off where it just doesn't save any time. All I am saying is that before you decide on having fares prepaid, you first decide if it is worth the the extra expense by considering all relevant factors, and missing a bus because of SBS is one of those relevant factors which should not be ignored.

You are not making any sense. The people who miss the bus because they pay with a MetroCard are the same people who would still miss the bus if they pay with cash which happened all the time before we had MetroCards. The people who I am talking about arrive at the bus stop in time to board but can't take it because they did not buy their receipt yet. Also on non SBS routes if you see a bus coming and you are not quite at the bus stop yet, you can flag down the bus so that you arrive at the stop the same time as the bus. You can't do that with SBS. And if one of the machines is not working or Sobel e is in front of you using it, your chances of missing the bus are greater.

And why would someone miss the bus because he is paying with his MetroCard? Not everyone has it ready before they board. Many board, then take it out later and then pay.

But does the MTA get the revenue for the fines or does it go to the city? Why can't we have some transparency? I am not against off-Board fare payment as long as it can be shown that the time savings are significant and not miniscule. When making that calculation missing the bus should be part of the equation and not just ignored.

I was talking about official MTA policy. Perhaps you have been lucky on your route. You can't apply your specific circumstances to all SBS routes citiwide.

If someone sees a bus at the bus stop but can't just board it because he first has to get a receipt, and sice drivers are instructed to not wait for passengers at the machines, he will miss the bus and may have to wait five or ten minutes for the next one even if the scheduled headway is every five minutes. I am less concerned about the initial expense but the increased ongoing annual expense. Every staff summary asked for approval of $2 to $3 million extra in annual operating costs to fund no SBS. The MTA never explained why other than saying the Eagle Team was the most expensive component of SBS.

You have no argument with me on these points.

I have been retired from the MTA for nearly 12 years so the only information I have is what is released publicly. I look forward to reading the reports you linked. If 11 minutes were saved as you claim, I woud certainly think that would be worthwhile. I am not a stubborn person and am quite willing to change my opinions based on facts. However, there is one inaccuracy you made. You claim the two minute savings I quoted from the report only applied to the peak period. The report I cited clearly states 7 AM to 7 PM. That is not only the peak period. You make valid points. It reminds me of what my boss stated in 1993 when I was working on a personal security project. At that time personal safety on the subway was a hot topic and much in the news. People did not feel safe on the subway. My boss stated at a meeting that it is not important for the MTA to actually make the subways safer, only that passengers think they are safer. Missed not seeing you last week or the month before. "Some of its features should be increased." That depends on the specific route." Your point about increased congestion may be valid.

No, not at all. An intelligent discussion is when someone raises a point and someone else counters that point. That is not what is happening here. I am raising points which are not being addressed. Instead, the response seeks to divert the subject by raising other non-related points. Also, when a point cannot be countered, the person concedes the other one is correct. That is not what is happening here. Someone spoke about how beneficial fare prepayment has been. When I countered with statistics showing the time savings has been negligible, the response was that it is still benefcial because statistics don't matter, only perceptions do. Also what about the person who claimed an 11 minute savings each way when the statistics showed only a two minute savings? No one responded to that point either. You are also incorrect by saying I don't see it from the passengers point of view. I certainly do by talking about how much time the passenger saves or doesn't save. Discussing how much time is saved River to River and on a round trip, certainly is not seeing the passengers point of view, which were points others were raising. Now you say everyone realizes there is a problem with MTA statistics. So how come when those statistics exaggerate the benefits of SBS in other MTA reports, those aren't challenged except my me? You seem to be saying that the benefits are really greater than the MTA is claiming. Now why would that ever happen? I am not addressing your other points about dispatching, etc until she one addresses the points I raised regarding fare prepayment.

So what you and VG8 are saying is that perceptions whether true or not matter more than the actual facts. Absolutely amazing. And of course rather than responding to my questions such if you see problems with the MTA statistics, you completely change the subject to what is going on in other countries. Looks like neither of you are interested in having an intelligent discussion. I give up.

So the question remains if off Board fare payment SPEEDS UP SERVICE SO MUCH, why is only TWO minutes saved per trip river to river? PLEASE ANSWER THAT! I repeat the average passenger saves only ONE minute, while some passengers LOSE TEN minutes. AND YOU STILL INSIST IT IS A GREAT IDEA! Are the MTA numbers wrong? And dedicated lanes would screw up east west traffic for cars which of course doesn't concern you in the least, and signal priority would screw up north south traffic.

First of all I was only talking about the M86, so let's not divert the discussion to other SBS routes right now. The reason I focused on the M86 is because we were talking about the advantages of off-Board fare payment only and that route has three SBS features, off-board fare payment. articulated buses and and queue jump lanes. No exclusive bus lane. I don't know where you are getting your statistics from. I am getting my metrics from the 86 Street Progress Report which shows an average one way trip savings of about 2 minutes which includes time savings from the queue jump lane as well as off-Board fare payment. Slightly more in one direction and slightly less in the other. And as I said that means an average time savings for the average passenger of less than one minute because no one rides from river to river. So the time-savings from just the off-board fare payment is even less than one minute which is NEGLIGIBLE, especially when you consider it costs more to operate an SBS route. I know nothing about personal surveys you conducted or the methodology used or the hours you surveyed. I would assume the MTA numbers are more reliable.

First of all I was only talking about the M86, so let's not divert the discussion to other SBS routes right now. The reason I focused on the M86 is because we were talking about the advantages of off-Board fare payment only and that route has three SBS features, off-board fare payment. articulated buses and and queue jump lanes. No exclusive bus lane. I don't know where you are getting your statistics from. I am getting my metrics from the 86 Street Progress Report which shows an average one way trip savings of about 2 minutes which includes time savings from the queue jump lane as well as off-Board fare payment. Slightly more in one direction and slightly less in the other. And as I said that means an average time savings for the average passenger of less than one minute because no one rides from river to river. So the time-savings from just the off-board fare payment is even less than one minute which is NEGLIGIBLE, especially when you consider it costs more to operate an SBS route. I know nothing about personal surveys you conducted or the methodology used or the hours you surveyed. I would assume the MTA numbers are more reliable.

Show me the proof that off-board fare payment saves so much time that it is worth the extra cost. The M86 which only has off-Board payment saves an average of only two minutes from river to river. If the average trip is halfway across Manhattan, that is a savings of one minute for the average passenger. That does take into account the numbers of passengers who miss a bus getting their receipt and lose ten minutes on their trip. That has to be factored in even if it only one in ten or twenty passengers who experience that. If the average trip time is 30 minutes, a savings of one minute hardly seems worth it considering it costs at least $1 million more per year to operate an SBS route than a Limited route. Also, where do you get the idea that every Limited bus should qualify for SBS. It was supposed to be for routes where a significant amount of time could be saved, not to replace all Limited service. In fact, originally when SBS was first proposed in 2003, it was supposed to supplement Limited service, not replace it.

Yes, I'd keep the local on Hegeman and run Limited or SBS on Linden.

If there is an east west SBS route to JFK, it should be on Linden, not New Lots. SBS was originally only on wide streets so it could be fast. Now every slow street qualifies for SBS. Just ridiculous. Just a way to make people walk further to and from bus stops and have fewer stops while costing more to operate.

Sorry, meant to say LTD. Don't remember that.

I would have walked if my back was not hurting. Since there is no way to get past the traffic woes, SBS on Kings Highway names no sense. It should run on Avenue P as a new route or not run at all. SBS supposed to be fast. If it can't be, then it is just a fancy name without any effectiveness.

I doubt it if anyone at the MTA even realizes the route is nice used Avenue K. They probably just looked at the map and thought it was a good idea without knowing the history. I wish they were there yesterday. I took the B7 from Coney Island Avenue to Ocean Avenue at around 2:30. The trip took 15 minutes for ten blocks. There was a B82 SBS right behind us that never passed us. I would have asked them how SBS would have made that trip faster.

It was on Nov 12, 1978 when the B50 started and it ran on Avenue K for about three weeks or three months, I am not sure. The residents of Avenue K protested and with the help of elected officials got it removed. I think it should have stayed on Avenue K. The difference this time is that DOT and the MTA won't listen if the residents protest this time.

$2.75 is just to get it started. After a year it probably would be $5; then 7.50 in two years; $10 in 3 years; $15 in four years, etc.