Gorgor

I don't think you understand how the bus system works in Manhattan. Very few people use the buses to get to the subways, because with the exceptions of the Far West Side south of Columbus Circle and the Lower East Side, everyone can walk to the subways (and even in those neighborhoods, most people probably walk). People actually do use the buses to get around Manhattan, because the subway's hot, crowded, and crappy for disabled users, and is only really good at serving Midtown and Downtown.

 

You've said multiple times in other threads that you base your ideas based on how NJT and some other agencies work. Please don't. The MTA is in a completely different league, and we don't need to take advice from one of the most byzantine, customer-unfriendly agencies in the Tri-State region.

There are many people who use the bus to get to the subway in Manhattan.  I'd say at least half of crosstown bus users on the Upper East Side are using the bus to get to the subway.  Especially the M66, M79, and M86 which run out of seats after 1st Avenue going westbound.  I'd say about 30% of the bus gets out at Lexington Avenue, and then for the M79/M86 at Central Park West about half of the people get off (not all go to the subway, but almost all do), and quite a few people stick around until Broadway, maybe only about half of those getting off at Broadway go into the subway though since it is a destination in itself already.

There are also a fair amount of people who transfer between crosstown buses in Midtown and the subway.

Your plan would force many more people to transfer thus eliminating any real possible gains, plus it completely eliminates the connection between the Broadway line and the Queens Blvd line.  Currently there are many ways to get from Queens Blvd to your destination by taking one train, but your plan would eliminate.  Also Central Park West would be completely messed up by forcing half the local riders to transfer at 59th Street if they want to access 6th Avenue.

I do believe that your changes would decrease the amount of delays each individual train experiences, but it adds extra time to most commutes by forcing people to make one or even two transfers to get to their final destination.

Currently as it is now:

10/12

Queens Blvd

Queens Blvd Lcl -> Broadway

Queens Blvd Exp -> Broadway

Queens Blvd Lcl -> 6 Av

Queens Blvd Exp -> 6 Av

Queens Blvd Lcl -> 8 Av

Queens Blvd Exp -> 8 Av

Queens Plaza -> 6 Av

Queens Plaza -> 8 Av

Others

CPW Lcl -> 6 Av

CPW Exp -> 6 Av

CPW Lcl -> 8 Av

CPW Exp -> 8 Av

-----

Your plan:

5/12

Queens Blvd

Queens Blvd Lcl -> Broadway

Queens Blvd Exp -> Broadway

Queens Blvd Lcl -> 6 Av

Queens Blvd Exp -> 6 Av

Queens Blvd Lcl -> 8 Av

Queens Blvd Exp -> 8 Av

Queens Plaza -> 6 Av

Queens Plaza -> 8 Av

Others

CPW Lcl -> 6 Av

CPW Exp -> 6 Av

CPW Lcl -> 8 Av

CPW Exp -> 8 Av

Here's a new one:

 

The has decided to rebuild the crossover between the "express" and "local" tracks west of the Broadway-Lafayette station on the southbound side, affecting the .  This will be a 17-day project in mid-summer, closing the southbound tracks in and around Broadway-Lafayette from 8:00 PM on a Friday until 5:00 AM on a Monday 17 days later (three weekends and two workweeks).  The northbound tracks around Broadway-Lafayette will remain operational during this time.

 

Do the appropriate re-routes.

Trick question, there is no crossover for the southbound tracks at that location, only the northbound tracks.

For some reason, I can't seem to hyperlink (the screen turns grey, but the bar to insert the URL doesn't show up). Anyway,

 

MTA Bus: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aha-LfXMlWNBdHd4QkhLRF92cURWNWdSbzNfSjJwWWc&hl=en#gid=2

 

NYCT: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aha-LfXMlWNBdGplTGJUVm9oZ25DT3JLRWRjbzZkT2c#gid=1

 

Local and express for both.

 

These farebox recovery ratios are approximate (and are from before the 2010 cuts, not that it makes much of a difference). What he did was he just took the average fare and applied it across the board. Some routes have more transfers than others, and so even though this spreadsheet says they turn a profit, that might not be the case in reality.

 

Keep in mind that this is only based on marginal costs. When you factor in overhead costs, no route turns a profit (again, depending on the exact amount of transfers each route gets, and depending on how costs were reduced since 2010, maybe one or two routes turns a profit nowadays).

 

BTW, those numbers you're using are fudged, Gorgor. The 2009 numbers don't correspond to the 2009 numbers on the spreadsheets (which were taking directly from the 2010 service reduction booklets. I think Brett might have the original PDFs). I'm not blaming you, but I'm saying the MTA did fudge those numbers.

The numbers I used on my site are straight from the MTA's website (and cited on the bottom of the site).

I forget where that data is located (if anyone has a link then please post it), but if I remember correctly, every single Manhattan crosstown route and certain major north-south routes (M15, M101, might be others) turn a profit.  The rest of the routes are there for coverage and to serve those with disabilities who can't access the non-ADA compliant stations.

The thing is that those local buses, for the most part, have significantly higher ridership compared to express buses.  Local buses you can get on or off anyone along the route, but once you get on an express bus you can't get off until you leave the borough.  Besides for the few outliers, the most unused local buses cost less to operate than the most used express buses.

Riders per express bus

Riders per local bus (doesn't have all local buses)

And that's exactly what we're viewed as...   That's why people call for express bus cuts... Most express bus riders are either middle class or upper middle class. Meanwhile upper middle class folks are on MetroNorth for the most part with the average earner bringing in $100,000+ a year and people are fine with the rails and they're not "rich snobs".  For whatever reason the buses aren't viewed the same as the rails are.  Can never understand it for the life of me.  

 

What irks me more is that when I do use the subway in the city over the local bus, the ride isn't much faster these days.  Trains just crawl.  I jumped off of the BxM2 the other day because the traffic was murder and onto the .  I'm thinking great the train is here right away.  We crawled all the way.  Same thing happens when I use the from the BxM2... 

Because express buses cost more to operate than they make.  MetroNorth and subway lines make nice profits.

People hop in cabs because of service cuts?  The M31 hasn't been significantly cut; people have always taken cabs instead of the bus because unreliability has always been an issue.  It's just that as the MTA spaces M31 buses farther apart in the schedule, the wait for buses increases so that people would rather spend the money than potentially wait 15+ minutes for a bus.

And if you're referring to people taking cabs instead because of the X90 cut then the whole rich argument is invalid because cab fare is only $7 to Water Street, and I highly doubt spending an extra dollar matters. 

(And just saying, the X90 fare was exactly the same as every other express bus, so saying that we were rich snobs because we spent the extra money instead of taking a subway/bus combo commute makes every other express bus rider a rich snob because they don't want to take a subway/bus combo.)

Well yeah of course.  You think they're going to keep running buses every 3 minutes when people hop in cabs the way you say they do up there? Here instead of hopping in cabs, we wait for our buses and then write in and demand better service.  That's why we keep our buses and you guys lose yours.  In all fairness however, I have Bus Time so quite frankly it doesn't bother me to hang out and relax somewhere until my bus is there then walk to the stop when my bus is there. When Bus Time comes to Manhattan, man am I gonna love that.  It's really convenient here that's for sure.  

 

I used to hop in cabs in the city too until I realize that you usually don't get anywhere any faster. The AC SUCKS in the summer and all you're left with is a hot long sweaty ride that you're stuck paying $20.00 for in the end. 

People hop in cabs because service is cut, thus decreasing ridership even more, although it's mainly on weekends or midday when people use cabs as alternates because service is scheduled to run only once every 8-10 minutes, which can mean up to 15 minutes due to delays.  It's not the fact that we think buses don't run frequently enough, it's that buses get delayed and then bunch so badly that it's impossible to know when the next bus will even come. 

I don't know what kind of cabs you've been in but I've only rarely had problems with the AC, in which case I just opened the window and got a nice breeze. 

Oh boy... Imagine that... 5 minutes for a bus... You sound so ridiculous and spoiled. I use the M50 on weekends and it runs every 30 minutes.  

Not complaining about 5 minute headways during rush hour at all.  Just pointing out that service has been cut over the years.

Not gonna lie we both can agree on this 1000% I wonder the same thing.

 

 

You do realize M31 gets good use right? If they had so much power the X90 would still be with us or be converted into a LTD stop line.

 

Err I guess I understand that too.

With the addition of the taxi stand at 70th Street (in addition to the one at 79th, and the vans at 85th), the York Avenue to Water Street crowd was given alternatives.  They just happened to leave out those commuting one extra stop to the World Financial Center.

And I still don't know why you're saying the X90 should've been converted into a limited; all that does is cut the amount of money the MTA gets in half from the lower fare.

M31 service has been getting reduced over the years.  Buses are scheduled to run only once every 10 minutes on weekends, which can easily become 15-20 minutes due to extreme unreliability, so it's no wonder why people prefer to take taxis than wait for a huge unknown amount of time.  I also remember when buses used to run every 3 minutes during rush hour; now they run every 5.

There is a bus lane on 57th Street (I believe from 8th Avenue to 2nd Avenue), but the M31 and M57 get delayed in the bus lane due to express buses and right turns.

The M31 is already extremely unreliable to the point that people along York Avenue (myself included) would rather take a cab if the next bus can't be seen.  Making the route longer would increase unreliability greatly and affect those along West End Avenue as well.  Anyone going from York Avenue to West End will already take the M66 or M72, so the change proposed will not generate any new rides.

For traveling within Manhattan, anyone who is already driving will NOT under any circumstances ditch their car to take a bus.  I drive within Manhattan on weekends and there is no way that a new bus route would change my mind.

Additionally, if I'm with someone then traveling by car is cheaper because even if I can't find a free spot, $3.50 per hour street parking is better than $10 round trip (for two people).  For families traveling by car with 4 or 5 people, they'd have to be stupid to take public transportation because $20-$25 round trip is absurd.  A round trip cab ride is cheaper than that.

The X25 carried barely anyone.  Instead of sending Manhattan bound buses terminating at 57th Street down to Grand Central, sending them 2 miles up to 92nd Street and York Avenue and sending them down an X90 run would be much more effective, relieve some overcrowding on the , and they'll be by the Battery Tunnel to go back to whatever borough they came from.

If they do this then the money they make it fares should be the same, if not more, than the cost of gas and the extra time spent.  Then in the PM, empty buses coming out of the Battery Tunnel can go up half a mile to the World Financial Center and do an Upper East Side bound X90 run, then simply travel 2 miles down to 57th to go back to an outerborough.  (X90 took about 50 minutes in the AM and 40 in the PM)

A small jet plane collapses on the Queensboro Plaza station. Due to safety concerns, service to the area and nearby station by 2 miles are closed. Divert away.

Highly unrealistic.....

All stations within 2 miles are unusable?  Grand Central station is less than 2 miles from there as well as all Lexington Avenue stations up to and including 77th Street.  The at 5th Avenue are all less than 2 miles away as well.  The Nassau Street station is less than 2 miles away, the (7)/LIRR Woodside is just under 2 miles away, Astoria Blvd less than that, and the Northern Blvd is.

Almost all of those stations are underground as well, so they can't possibly be affected.

That's like saying a small plane crashing into a building at 4th Av-9th St will shut down every single subway station in Downtown Brooklyn.

Forest Hills - 71st Avenue is currently flooded, all platforms. What would you do?

Queensbound terminate at 74th Street.  (Look at the track maps, the can use the switches before and the can use the switches afterwards, without interfering with each other)

also runs between Van Wyck and Jamaica Center

also runs between Van Wyck and Jamaica

Shuttle buses run between 74th Street and Van Wyck

Signal problems on the and between Bowling Green and Borough Hall.

trains run with delays

The Chrystie Street Connection cannot be used due to a structural problem that will be fixed for about 5 years. Where would the  go without a connection to the Sixth Avenue Line towards Forest Hills? 

Where it used to always go, Broad Street.

It's been a while for me and this foamfest...

 

Due to signal problems, switches at West 4th Street are stuck in the straight postion. This means all trains passing on the local track must pass 6th Avenue --> 8th Avenue northbound, and 8th Avenue --> 6th Avenue southbound. Use track maps to your benefit, and good luck.

 

The switches north of the station are unaffected.

runs express south of 34th

runs via 63rd Street, 6th Av local to West 4th then normal

runs via 53rd Street, 8th Av local to West 4th, then normal

runs via 8th Av local between West 4th and 53rd, with some trains turning at Broad Street (to avoid delays)

You have some major issues with your calculations.

Running 24mph means that you can run 20 city blocks in 2.5 minutes.

You can run 24mph for 5 miles straight? 

So you're saying you can run from Houston Street to 100th Street in 12.5 minutes?

 

Limited trains will run due to trains being used on the   line.

HOW?

NEXT: Structural problems at Fulton Local stops. The following stops are impassible on the local tracks due to this problem being fixed:

 

-Franklin Ave

-Kingston Throop Avenues

-Liberty Ave

 

You can only add in 2 switches in any place. 

No, adding switches is completely unrealistic and would require shutting down the entire area for a long period of time.

And this one's simple: runs express from Hoyt to Euclid

Use the B25 and as alternates.

Simple solution:

suspended

runs between the Bronx and Broadway Lafayette AND between Atlantic Av and Coney Island

via tunnel, LOCAL in Brooklyn

via tunnel

2 trains are stalled at Bedford Nostrand Avenues In both Directions, whats the reroute?

train frequencies reduced... trains use the middle track both ways to bypass stalled trians.

NEXT: A blizzard has struck the city. The Broadway Line (the 1) is impassible north of Dyckman. The White Plains Road and Dyre lines are impassable north of Intervale Ave. This needs an immediate plan!

No trains north of 168th St

No trains north of 3rd Avenue