Recommission the LIRR Rockaway beach branch back into service

[Airplanepilotgod8888]

The Rockaway beach branch was opened in 1877 but decommissioned and abandoned in 1962. Today a very small section of the branch is used by the train and the Rockaway  train. It takes a very long time to get to and from Rockaway beach. The abandoned tracks of the Rockaway beach branch are now engulfed by trees and vegetation. To reopen the Rockaway beach branch the trees and vegetation must be cut down and new tracks relayed and the stations rebuilt and reopen for service. It is better for the Rockaway beach branch to be reopened as LIRR instead of a subway line because you have to build a subway line but the LIRR tracks and stations are ready to go. 

[Vistausss]

Ready to go? Connected to what? And where will it terminate in the Rockaways? (since the uses the former last part of the LIRR RB branch)

[bobtehpanda]

LIRR OTP is absolute crap, and the agency is very bad at handling things when something bad happens on the Main Line or at Penn. (I'm confused as to why they don't usually divert trains to HPA, LIC, or Atlantic, while NYCT is more than happy to reroute some trains onto different lines.) Plus, LIRR will probably max out capacity at GCT as well when East Side Access opens, so unless Rockaway riders are clamoring for a shuttle to Woodside, HPA, or LIC, I really don't think the Rockaway Beach Branch should be built as LIRR.

[lirr42]

The Rockaway Beach Branch is very far from 'ready to go.'  There would have to be substantial upgrades made to the ROW to support LIRR trains which are a) much heavier than subway trains and b) move [ideally] faster than subway trains.

 

Not to mention the entire power system would have to be revamped (if not completely redone).  The unused portion of the ROW will need third rail and substations every two miles and the portion of the ROW that the Subway currently uses will have to have their third rail upgraded to 750 V.  This is more of a problem than it seems, as up until Hurricane Sandy, NYCT had trouble getting enough power for their trains (pre-Hurricane Sandy NYCT could not use R160's to the Rockaways because they were too heavy on the juice.)  Supposedly that has been fixed,  but there would be an awful lot of work to go through to get the line up to par.

 

Add a new signal system and PTC to the tracks as well as new stations with longer platforms and more clearance and we're already millions and millions of dollars in the hole.

 

No thanks.

LIRR OTP is absolute crap, and the agency is very bad at handling things when something bad happens on the Main Line or at Penn. (I'm confused as to why they don't usually divert trains to HPA, LIC, or Atlantic, while NYCT is more than happy to reroute some trains onto different lines.) Plus, LIRR will probably max out capacity at GCT as well when East Side Access opens, so unless Rockaway riders are clamoring for a shuttle to Woodside, HPA, or LIC, I really don't think the Rockaway Beach Branch should be built as LIRR.

 

Then once we spend all that money to extend the LIRR to the Rockaways, people along the ROW now have to deal with the LIRR.  And Mr. Panda is right, the LIRR's OTP is in the toilet, the system has no flexibility during disruptions, and most of it is maxed out into and out of its terminals.

 

I doubt that it will go over well with the Long Beach or Huntington Riders when they learn that some of their rush hour trains are being cut to serve Rockaway residents who already have subway service as it is.

 

And do Rockaway residents really want this?  Higher fares and longer headways.  But it'll get them to New York faster.

[Vistausss]

LIRR OTP is absolute crap, and the agency is very bad at handling things when something bad happens on the Main Line or at Penn. (I'm confused as to why they don't usually divert trains to HPA, LIC, or Atlantic, while NYCT is more than happy to reroute some trains onto different lines.) Plus, LIRR will probably max out capacity at GCT as well when East Side Access opens, so unless Rockaway riders are clamoring for a shuttle to Woodside, HPA, or LIC, I really don't think the Rockaway Beach Branch should be built as LIRR.

 

LIC can't handle many more revenue trains anymore. Atlantic would be a nice option but than you'll get bunching on the and from there on because the and are already very crowded during the day. But at least Atlantic LIRR has plenty of capacity. HPA would be an option but limited.

[lirr42]

LIC can't handle many more revenue trains anymore. Atlantic would be a nice option but than you'll get bunching on the and from there on because the and are already very crowded during the day. But at least Atlantic LIRR has plenty of capacity. HPA would be an option but limited.

 

 

HPA has a decent amount of capacity (can handle ~ 10 trains per hour but now sees only 3-4).  LIC doesn't have much room, but the simple act of adding more platforms to the yard tracks would significantly increase capacity without much cost.  There is room to add a platform down the middle for most tracks.  The LIRR could even electrify a couple more tracks.  Couple that together with easier access to the East River Ferry and LIC could become the Hoboken Terminal of Long Island.

[Vistausss]

HPA has a decent amount of capacity (can handle ~ 10 trains per hour but now sees only 3-4).  LIC doesn't have much room, but the simple act of adding more platforms to the yard tracks would significantly increase capacity without much cost.  There is room to add a platform down the middle for most tracks.  The LIRR could even electrify a couple more tracks.  Couple that together with easier access to the East River Ferry and LIC could become the Hoboken Terminal of Long Island.

 

Yes, but HPA isn't wheelchair accessible so what would you do with passengers with a handicap boarding a train that is diverted to HPA?

[lirr42]

Yes, but HPA isn't wheelchair accessible so what would you do with passengers with a handicap boarding a train that is diverted to HPA?

 

Have them detrain at a different station that is handicap accessible along the way.  And if all else fails they could be let off in either Long Island City or Jamaica if that is where the train is returning to.

[tun]

While it would be easier to integrate the line with the LIRR, subway service makes more sense. Unfortunately, integrating the line with the Queens Blvd. line would be no small task.

[bobtehpanda]

LIC can't handle many more revenue trains anymore. Atlantic would be a nice option but than you'll get bunching on the and from there on because the and are already very crowded during the day. But at least Atlantic LIRR has plenty of capacity. HPA would be an option but limited.

 

The point is that instead of just outright cancelling trains, the LIRR should be able to provide at least limited service at other terminals and redirect costumers to alternative services.

[Vistausss]

The point is that instead of just outright cancelling trains, the LIRR should be able to provide at least limited service at other terminals and redirect costumers to alternative services.

 

I know, but I don't think they want to be bunched onto already near-full-load and trains or near-full-load  trains (rush hour primarily). It would create chaos in the subway and even if it doesn't create chaos, people will still complain to LIRR. The best thing LIRR could do is provide bus service from the nearest possible place (in this case HPA or Atlantic would be the best options) or give 'em a free transfer to the Express Bus at Atlantic.

[lirr42]

I know, but I don't think they want to be bunched onto already near-full-load and trains or near-full-load  trains (rush hour primarily). It would create chaos in the subway and even if it doesn't create chaos, people will still complain to LIRR. The best thing LIRR could do is provide bus service from the nearest possible place (in this case HPA or Atlantic would be the best options) or give 'em a free transfer to the Express Bus at Atlantic.

You seem to be forgetting that the also serve Atlantic Terminal. There are plenty of options to disperse the load.

 

And I'd much rather be "bunched onto the subway" than be stuck sitting at WOOD's home signal for an hour and a half during a delay. And I think most LIRR riders would agree.

[bobtehpanda]

I know, but I don't think they want to be bunched onto already near-full-load and trains or near-full-load  trains (rush hour primarily). It would create chaos in the subway and even if it doesn't create chaos, people will still complain to LIRR. The best thing LIRR could do is provide bus service from the nearest possible place (in this case HPA or Atlantic would be the best options) or give 'em a free transfer to the Express Bus at Atlantic.

 

To be fairly honest, it seems like a large amount of screwups occur during the PM, where this would be less of a problem.

 

East Side Access should theoretically make things easier, though, and most people are taking the subway to Penn anyways since it's so out of the way.

[Vistausss]

ESA isn't gonna help that much. Maybe if they'd put in a station at Sunnyside Yard. But trains would still have to be diverted to HPA or Atlantic in case of a disruption. (at least from the perspective of LIRR actually diverting trains after ESA opens)

[bobtehpanda]

ESA isn't gonna help that much. Maybe if they'd put in a station at Sunnyside Yard. But trains would still have to be diverted to HPA or Atlantic in case of a disruption. (at least from the perspective of LIRR actually diverting trains after ESA opens)

 

A fair amount of delays have been an Amtrak train (or something else) messing up in the East River tunnels or on the approach to Penn, so in those very specific cases, it would be better.

[lirr42]

ESA isn't gonna help that much. Maybe if they'd put in a station at Sunnyside Yard. But trains would still have to be diverted to HPA or Atlantic in case of a disruption. (at least from the perspective of LIRR actually diverting trains after ESA opens)

 

A fair amount of delays have been an Amtrak train (or something else) messing up in the East River tunnels or on the approach to Penn, so in those very specific cases, it would be better.

 

Of the 361 trains delayed by Amtrak in August 2013, 285 were made late by some sort of issue in the East River Tunnels--that's the biggest choke point.  Having a way to relieve pressure when one of those goes down is exactly what ESA will come in handy for.  Now there's probably not going to be much spare room in the ESA tunnels because those too will probably quickly come to capacity, but it could help.

 

Also ESA will take pressure off NYP itself.  While the LIRR won't be abdicating Penn completely when ESA opens, even one or two less trains per hour could do wonders in flexibility and recovering from disruptions like those.