Significant Drop in Ridership - MTA

[RailRunRob]

28 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

NYC doesn't have to be a car-centric city for its commuters to not have to put up with this BS... It isn't about the cab companies being the perfect storm, as much as it is them even being as prevalent as they are in the first place.... This city has been far too reliant on the subway for far too long with the same general issues that has plagued it & well, we're seeing a negative effect of it...

I'm with you and in no way am I excusing the issues that plague this system. I'm simply pointing out the parameters that the city operates within. Commissioners plan of 1811, Parkway and interstate systems. If you can't move people good's you don't have a City. The City is reliant on the Subway because well the Subway made many areas of the City. Im sure you've seen the before and after from area's of the outer boroughs once the Subway touched.  Just as the aqueducts made the City of Rome possible. New York is unlike many other Cities in that regards.

 

28 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

When it comes down to crunch time, people vote with their feet & will abandon public transit altogether if they have the wherewithal to.... Nobody has time for the care bear countdown 5...4...3...2....1, all being reliant on hopes & dreams of waiting for this agency to wake up, smell the coffee & get their f***** act together & have it run, or treated, the way (as you put it, for example) we treat other public utilities.....

Indeed. Your right I'd take it a step further than walking or Uber. People and Businesses are going to leave New York altogether unless they pull it together. I do believe once New York starts taking hits to the pockets they'll move it's a shame it takes that. 

[Jsunflyguy]

19 hours ago, RR503 said:

Exactly. In major incident scenarios, a gap downstream of an issue fills the hole, and actually facilitates incident recovery by at least partially mitigating platform crowding issues that snowball incidents after the discrete event has cleared. Gap trains also can prevent non-issues (say, a T/ABD or two on the Lex) from becoming issues -- have a capacity gap on an important line? Insert a train in there. 

B div actually has more spare tracks than the A division -- and crucially has them nearer to the core. Not just A5 at 30th and the 72nd St spurs, but D5 at Queens Plaza, 2nd Avenue/Houston, A5 north of Chambers, City Hall Yard, G3/4 in Astoria, 135th St spurs, really all of Nassau St, the middle tracks on Sea Beach, Culver, Jamaica and West End, etc etc etc. The IRT was built tight. The BMT, less so, and the IND, absolutely not. 

The tower issue, as you say, is the real limiting factor here. IIRC, with current B div tower staffing, you could run gaps out of (please note I'm culling to the ones I think could be useful) Astoria middle, City Hall yard, Coney Island, West End/Sea Beach/Culver middle, J1 on Nassau, J3/4 on Jamaica, ENY yard, and then on the IND at 174th yd, 135th spurs, 72nd spurs, Queens Plaza Spur, Jamaica Yard, 34th/8th spurs, 2nd Ave/Houston, Chambers/8th Spur, and Euclid. 

Point being, this needs to be a part of the strategy going forwards. I've heard people moan and groan about things like 'how do gap crews use the bathroom' (they flag down a train) and 'is it worth the money' (ask anyone who passenger who has had a 20 min wait on a weekday since someone went T/ABD), but it's really time to buck up and go for it. This is a tried-and-tested way to better service delivery. 

I had a long reply about the details behind why I only put the two that I put, I'll be brief. QP and 2nd Ave I'm not sure you'd want to put a trains there since its an ideal location to turn back service on short notice QP. J3/4 are usually put ins for  trains in the AM and the track seems to be empty most other times but you could feasibly hide a train there. The middle tracks Sea Beach, Culver, West End are a  little finicky since they require traffic levers which may not always be able to be thrown. You'd typically be limited to one train as anymore than that would require passing the "hold out signal" and forcing the current of traffic in a specific direction, then your train is committed to a direction and it may not be the useful direction. BTW I discounted Sea Beach since it is in use during the  rehab and the  Express will occupy Culver. I was also under the impression the tracks at Chambers were permanently lifted, and that the spur north of 30th Middle (34/8) cannot hold a full length train in the clear, but that obviously may or may not be the case.

I hadn't counted yards, but the B division does have an advantage (or  not depending on how you look at it) that it has 3 yards that are not at the end of the route. City Hall and 174th I didn't regard them as places to be spares since they are lay up yards and are typically the first place exhausted of trains. But I was analyzing this from the perspective of having a train stationed that is surplus to the ones required for service during rush hour. So most of the tracks you mentioned are in use and the train sets there are crewed and committed to service.

But regardless of that, there are places that can be used and I believe the idea holds merit, In my mind the trains can be crewed for 2-3hrs and a half trip if it gets dropped could push things to 5hrs in the cab....which isn't ideal but it does happen on a day-to-day in NYCT so it can be experimented and modified.

[RR503]

1 hour ago, Jsunflyguy said:

QP and 2nd Ave I'm not sure you'd want to put a trains there since its an ideal location to turn back service on short notice QP. J3/4 are usually put ins for  trains in the AM and the track seems to be empty most other times but you could feasibly hide a train there.

Point taken about QP and 2nd, though I can't remember the last time they turned any volume of trains at D5 -- they usually send everyone express or local. I think it's also worth keeping in mind that a good amount of disruption short turning is done to make service in the opposite direction, an issue that these very gap trains could really help with. 

J3/4 are used for weekend and (sometimes) overnight storage. After the AM rush, s generally proceed back to the yard -- layups you'll see on J3/4 are more commonly things they are moving around and need to get out of the way. 

1 hour ago, Jsunflyguy said:

The middle tracks Sea Beach, Culver, West End are a  little finicky since they require traffic levers which may not always be able to be thrown. You'd typically be limited to one train as anymore than that would require passing the "hold out signal" and forcing the current of traffic in a specific direction, then your train is committed to a direction and it may not be the useful direction. BTW I discounted Sea Beach since it is in use during the  rehab and the  Express will occupy Culver. I was also under the impression the tracks at Chambers were permanently lifted, and that the spur north of 30th Middle (34/8) cannot hold a full length train in the clear, but that obviously may or may not be the case.

The traffic lever thing is certainly an issue. The thought is that you generally won't need more than one train in each area. Even if you do, though, gaps from those tracks would generally all be entering service in the same direction (ie towards the core), thus allowing companions on the track to remain/move so long as something else does not need access to the same track.  express, BTW, if ever done, will end at Church -- B3/4 track is to remain free. 

Now, re 34/8, do you mean the spur area north of home 22? Or the entire layup, from the split from A3 and 4 just north of 23? A5 in its entirety can certainly hold 1 (or maybe even 2) sets...

1 hour ago, Jsunflyguy said:

I hadn't counted yards, but the B division does have an advantage (or  not depending on how you look at it) that it has 3 yards that are not at the end of the route. City Hall and 174th I didn't regard them as places to be spares since they are lay up yards and are typically the first place exhausted of trains. But I was analyzing this from the perspective of having a train stationed that is surplus to the ones required for service during rush hour. So most of the tracks you mentioned are in use and the train sets there are crewed and committed to service.

I'm pretty sure 174 has space at least in the midday -- not so sure about City Hall. I'd imagine that for the latter, though, you would be able to displace one or two sets to CI as an 86 put-in without issue.