Why we don’t need to connect the 2nd Avenue line to the Manhattan Bridge

[Amiri the subway guy]

I made this trend because people keep saying to send the 2nd Avenue line to the Manhattan Bridge.

So basically phase 4 is discarded 

2nd Avenue takes over the B/D on the Manhattan Bridge to West End and Brighton

Jamaica line gets split into two at Broadway Junction and build a new underground section from Broadway Junction to Cypress Hills, eliminating the two sharp curves that slow things down.  The B and D would take over the J/M/Z on the Williamsburg Bridge, The B train would take over the M train to Metropolitan Avenue Middle Village. And the D train would take over the J/Z to Broadway Junction. Then build a connection to the IND Fulton Street Line, a Fulton street service would take over J service from Jamaica Center to Broadway Junction, then run express with the A into Manhattan.  The Montague Street tunnel would be connected to Fulton Street so that Broadway locals could go there. The J train would be a shuttle.

My thoughts I have a strong dislike for this plan

For starters rerouting the B and D to Williamburg is a terrible idea because 

1. Brooklyn riders would lose access to the popular 6th ave line and if reroutings are needed on 6th ave service the entire service would be screwed since at least the current lay out for rerouting allow for trains to go to Coney Island either way. Example F train via west end D train via culver No to mention that this plan won’t even allow for the Broadway line to be rerouted to 6th Avenue in case of emergencies. What if another Manhattan Bridge reconstruction project is needed example how that would be impacted see? This is when putting the 2nd Avenue line on the Manhattan Bridge really becomes a problem. Williamburg has a lower ridership from 6th Avenue than southern Brooklyn 

2. Further more many south Brooklyn riders would be piss over at losing 6th Ave service to Coney Island or lose access to lower Manhattan Nassau from Williamsburg. Not to mention that Jamaica line can’t handle 75 foot long train cars If necessary we should extend a 2nd ave line via a new tunnel to Williamburg. That would require multiple shut downs. And you be pissing off a lot of grand Concourse Central Park West riders trying to get to Coney Island. The L and M are crowded, but are not that overwhelmed therefore do not justify letting riders suffer for years on end.

3. The Broadway line would be overwhelmed and even more crowded. This forces thousands of people to transfer at 34rd street herald square causing congestion again not worth it They is very little demand for East Side from BMT south Brooklyn . People that want to get to the east side transfer at 4/5 not a problem at all. People in BMT south Brooklyn gotten used to no east side access therefore does not justify it. 
 
4. This will require multiple shutdowns which will not sit well with anyone at all

5. spliting the Jamaica line does not better  Address the needs of Williamburg in fact it worsens things off for starters people would be furious as they would lose one sat ride from Jamaica center to Williamburg. Than you have Fulton street connection which would be too expensive for the conversation to happen. 

6. And the J train becoming a shuttle basically destroys service on Williamburg since you are cutting off service from lower Manhattan and dont bring up the “riders want midtown more than lower Manhattan argument” cause demand for lower Manhattan is just as high have y’all even rode the J/Z before lower Manhattan has seen just as much Gentrification as midtown did and yes we need a phase 4. Lower Manhattan is likely to get more job opportunities with the World Trade Center and rapid growth Phase 4 would has provision for a tunnel to Fulton street. Williamburg is a smaller priority for the 2nd Avenue project so just route a 2nd Avenue line to Williamburg via a new tunnel. Routing a 2nd Avenue line to Williamburg should reduce crowding on the J/Z L and M trains. It’s more likely that people are hating on the J train for no reason. Let’s respect the J train

Just build phase 4 with connections to Fulton street. My plan would be to send 8th Avenue and 2nd Avenue trains to Williamburg and Utica Avenue on a total new line  

So that plan will not work out at all removing the (B)(D) from the Manhattan bridge would cause Coney Island riders to lose access to the 6th Avenue Central Park West and Grand Concourse and removing the (J)(Z) from Williamsburg Bridge would cause riders to lose access to Nassau st line AKA the only connecting to lower Manhattan. Just leave the B D on Manhattan bridge the way it is just leave the J M Z on Williamburg the way it is the riders demand it stays like that. The ideal is to improve realible on the J/Z trains not remove it.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Amiri the subway guy
Added

[JeremiahC99]

18 minutes ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

1. Brooklyn riders would lose access to the popular 6th ave line and if reroutings are needed on 6th ave service the entire service would be screwed since at least the current lay out for rerouting allow for trains to go to Coney Island either way. Example F train via west end D train via culver No to mention that this plan won’t even allow for the Broadway line to be rerouted to 6th Avenue in case of emergencies. What if another Manhattan Bridge reconstruction project is needed example how that would be impacted see? This is when putting the 2nd Avenue line on the Manhattan Bridge really becomes a problem. Williamburg has a lower ridership from 6th Avenue than southern Brooklyn 

Brooklyn riders will still have access to Midtown Manhattan, and will not have any impacts on train reroutings. Should  and  trains swap again south of West 4th Street, they can still do so, with the  now going to the new  terminal at Broadway Junction and the  going back to Coney Island. Passengers can still make the cross platform connection at Broadway Lafayette Street if they wish. As such, 6th Avenue Service won't be screwed.

21 minutes ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

2. Further more many south Brooklyn riders would be piss over at losing 6th Ave service to Coney Island or lose access to lower Manhattan Nassau from Williamsburg. Not to mention that Jamaica line can’t handle 75 foot long train cars If necessary we should extend a 2nd ave line via a new tunnel to Williamburg. That would require multiple shut downs. And you be pissing off a lot of grand Concourse Central Park West riders trying to get to Coney Island. The L and M are crowded, but are not that overwhelmed therefore do not justify letting riders suffer for years on end.

Train service near the 6th Avenue Line will still be maintained, as the Broadway Line is essentially just a block away from it's core stations in Midtown. This plan is a longer term plan, so by the time this is even constructed, there won't be any 75 feet cars in the system anymore. Again, Central Park West riders can make a transfer to another line for access to Coney Island. As for Nassau Street, the station would be rebuilt to a 3-track 2-island platform station to allow for cross platform transfers to the  from Broad Street, which will now terminate there. Alternatives to the  and  are few, so rerouting all the trains over the Williamsburg Bridge via 6th avenue would be a big boon.

24 minutes ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

3. The Broadway line would be overwhelmed and even more crowded. This forces thousands of people to transfer at 34rd street herald square causing congestion again not worth it They is very little demand for East Side from BMT south Brooklyn . People that want to get to the east side transfer at 4/5 not a problem at all. People in BMT south Brooklyn gotten used to no east side access therefore does not justify it. 

The Broadway Line would see increased service and new Second Avenue service would connect at Houston Street, where  and  train service is available. Remember, we are trying to get rider OFF the  and , not put more people on there, so having the Second Avenue Subway go over to Southern Brooklyn would attract  and  train riders, since they will have a new alternative to the East Side. 

26 minutes ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

4. This will require multiple shutdowns which will not sit well with anyone at all

Connecting the Second Avenue Subway at Grand Street and to the Manhattan Bridge would only require closing the northern end of Sara Roosevelt Park, and the splitting of the Jamaica Avenue El at Broadway Junction would not be that disruptive at all (there are provisions for such a plan). However, the number of disruptions and lengths of the disturbances will vary depending on the project.

29 minutes ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

5. spliting the Jamaica line does not better  Address the needs of Williamburg in fact it worsens things off for starters people would be furious as they would lose one sat ride from Jamaica center to Williamburg. Than you have Fulton street connection which would be too expensive for the conversation to happen. 

Splitting the Jamaica Line will not make make things worse, but rather much better. The primary market for Jamaica riders east of Broadway Junction is to Lower Manhattan, not to Williamsburg. The connection, which won't be expensive if the MTA was reformed to allow for lower construction costs, will actually benefit riders since service to Lower Manhattan is quicker.

31 minutes ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

6. And the J train becoming a shuttle basically destroys service on Williamburg since you are cutting off service from lower Manhattan and dont bring up the “riders want midtown more than lower Manhattan argument” cause demand for lower Manhattan is just as high have y’all even rode the J/Z before lower Manhattan has seen just as much Gentrification as midtown did and yes we need a phase 4. Lower Manhattan is likely to get more job opportunities with the World Trade Center and rapid growth Phase 4 would has provision for a tunnel to Fulton street. Williamburg is a smaller priority for the 2nd Avenue project so just route a 2nd Avenue line to Williamburg via a new tunnel. Routing a 2nd Avenue line to Williamburg should reduce crowding on the J/Z L and M trains. It’s more likely that people are hating on the J train for no reason. Let’s respect the J train

Lower Manhattan demand is not THAT high compared to Midtown Manhattan. I have ridden the  and  and historically, the train is usually empty between Broad Street and Canal Street. This is NOT hating on the train, but rather ways to improve the whole routing for the majority of its riders. An expanded Second Avenue Subway alongside this project will not impede on SAS Phase 4 to Hanover Square. If the Second Avenue Subway is expanded to Lower Manhattan, then there would be two East River Crossings: the Manhattan Bridge north tracks and a new East River Tunnel to Fulton Street. Routing the SAS to the Williamsburg Bridge would not do anything to reduce capacity on any line.