1968 Travel Times: FAST!

[MHV9218]

I recently acquired a map and route guide from 1968 (the year that the MTA was created). The guide includes estimated trip times for all of the lines, which I thought I might post here. I'll start with the IRT lines, which are all listed as the time to midtown, and in some cases with the time for the remainder of the route and some not. To be honest, I think these times are wild -- trains must have been flying! Note the inclusion of the Third Ave El too...

 

1 - 242 to Times Square: 35 min

     242 to South Ferry: 50 min

 

2 - 241 to Times Square: 50 min

     241 to New Lots: 1 hour 30 min

 

3 - 148 to Times Square: 20 min

     148 to Flatbush Av: 50 min 

 

4 - Woodlawn to Grand Central: 35 min

     Woodlawn to Flatbush Ave: 1 hour 20 min

     Woodlawn to Atlantic Ave: 55 min

 

5 - 241 to Times Square: 45 min

     241 to Utica Av: 1 hour 20 min

 

6 - EXP Pelham Bay to Grand Central: 35 min

     LOC Pelham Bay to Grand Central: 40 min

 

7 - EXP Main St to Times Square: 25 min

     LOC Main St to Times Square: 30 min

 

8 - Gun Hill to 149 St: 20 min

 

[SubwayGuy]

As a T/O, I can comment on the running times for these lines as by and large pretty close to still valid provided there's a good crew, and only during off peak hours (rush hour adds significant time to the runs). I will say that these numbers are rounded, though, so they're probably not intended to be 100% accurate.

 

I recently acquired a map and route guide from 1968 (the year that the MTA was created). The guide includes estimated trip times for all of the lines, which I thought I might post here. I'll start with the IRT lines, which are all listed as the time to midtown, and in some cases with the time for the remainder of the route and some not. To be honest, I think these times are wild -- trains must have been flying! Note the inclusion of the Third Ave El too...

 

1 - 242 to Times Square: 35 min valid and do-able

     242 to South Ferry: 50 min bit of a stretch. 52 min is more like it. You need a very good crew to push 50.

 

2 - 241 to Times Square: 50 min actually do-able in 48 with a good crew, but 50 is a better estimate given the amount of interlining the 2 does

     241 to New Lots: 1 hour 30 min Do-able with a good crew and ZERO delays.

 

3 - 148 to Times Square: 20 min Do-able in 18

     148 to Flatbush Av: 50 min  Do-able in 51-52.

 

4 - Woodlawn to Grand Central: 35 min Very do-able. Can be done in 33-34.

     Woodlawn to Flatbush Ave: 1 hour 20 min This is for local on late nights. By the time the #4 is running local it's near impossible to accomplish this due to flagging, GO's, etc. 1:24 is the minimum running time for the 4 from Woodlawn to New Lots now, and Franklin to New Lots is only 4 mins longer than Franklin to Flatbush by schedule, although IMO it's 3 mins due to the slow timers entering Flatbush.

     Woodlawn to Atlantic Ave: 55 min Decent estimate. A great crew can do it in 53.

 

5 - 241 to Times Square: 45 min

     241 to Utica Av: 1 hour 20 min ??? What about Dyre?

 

6 - EXP Pelham Bay to Grand Central: 35 min Hard to measure as 6 express is only during AM rush hour

     LOC Pelham Bay to Grand Central: 40 min Difficult to do. 41-42 with a good crew is more realistic.

 

7 - EXP Main St to Times Square: 25 min 28 mins is a better estimate

     LOC Main St to Times Square: 30 min This is extremely difficult. 34 mins is much more realistic, 32 with a very good crew.

 

8 - Gun Hill to 149 St: 20 min WISH this line was still here...

[MHV9218]

As a T/O, I can comment on the running times for these lines as by and large pretty close to still valid provided there's a good crew, and only during off peak hours (rush hour adds significant time to the runs). I will say that these numbers are rounded, though, so they're probably not intended to be 100% accurate.

 

Very interesting to hear this account; I was curious about how possible these numbers were. The ones that stuck out by far the most to be me were the Flushing line -- I'm a pretty frequent rider at various hours, and both the Express and Local numbers seemed very optimistic to me (or perhaps, optimistic now, with timers in the tunnel, etc.). The numbers you listed are more in line with that I've experienced, though the crew (as you noted) is essential for something like that. And even those numbers (30 min for the local) have only been possible by ignoring some of the limits approaching and exiting stations and instead pulling out at full wrap. 

 

As for the Third Ave, you and me both. It's also a treat looking at the pre-Archer Ave routings for the KK and QJ, and also the sister M and MJ (the latter eliminated only a year later) 

 

Good catch: I did leave out the Dyre Ave 5 numbers. That's listed as Dyre-GC in 45 min, E180-GC in 35 min. Additionally, GC-Utica in 30min or GC-SF in 15 min. So together, 1 hour and 15 from Dyre to Utica or 1 hour and 5 from E180 to Utica.

[realizm]

7 - EXP Main St to Times Square: 25 min

     LOC Main St to Times Square: 30 min

 

Interesting how everything slowed down in the light of the Williamsburg Bridge accident resulting in the elimination of field shunting and installation of slow timers all over the system at switch approaches and tight radial curves making for a slower system (Necessary but nethertheless making for slower speeds).

 

I've asked a T/O one day, (Think it was thanksgiving, the last time I went R188 hunting with the DSLR) how long does it take for the to run from Flushing to Manhattan? He told me 40 minutes. Makes for a start contrast to how it used to be when the redbirds were here.

[bobtehpanda]

Interesting how everything slowed down in the light of the Williamsburg Bridge accident resulting in the elimination of field shunting and installation of slow timers all over the system at switch approaches and tight radial curves making for a slower system (Necessary but nethertheless making for slower speeds).

 

I've asked a T/O one day, (Think it was thanksgiving, the last time I went R188 hunting with the DSLR) how long does it take for the to run from Flushing to Manhattan? He told me 40 minutes. Makes for a start contrast to how it used to be when the redbirds were here.

 

Keep in mind that runtime also goes up with dwell time, and the subways have never been more crowded. I imagine the contrast would be the starkest with the due to all the growth in the neighborhoods around it; is there data for ridership in 1968 publicly available?

[SubwayGuy]

Very interesting to hear this account; I was curious about how possible these numbers were. The ones that stuck out by far the most to be me were the Flushing line -- I'm a pretty frequent rider at various hours, and both the Express and Local numbers seemed very optimistic to me (or perhaps, optimistic now, with timers in the tunnel, etc.). The numbers you listed are more in line with that I've experienced, though the crew (as you noted) is essential for something like that. And even those numbers (30 min for the local) have only been possible by ignoring some of the limits approaching and exiting stations and instead pulling out at full wrap.

The timers in the river tube are a big reason for the Flushing line being slow. The tunnel is so narrow, you can't see the next one, and they all clear a little bit slow, so you have to hang back to let the yellows go green as you can't see the next signal clear from red to yellow, even though it's hundreds of feet in front of you. Of course, they are necessary, since the tunnel is so narrow the excessive swaying from a train picking up excessive speed could cause the train to scratch the tunnel wall or some of the infrastructure contained in it (part of the reason for the very low speed limit).

 

The express has been slowed down a bit as well, although northbound you can still fly into Junction Blvd. but it's not as fast as it used to be.

 

 

As for the Third Ave, you and me both. It's also a treat looking at the pre-Archer Ave routings for the KK and QJ, and also the sister M and MJ (the latter eliminated only a year later) 

 

Good catch: I did leave out the Dyre Ave 5 numbers. That's listed as Dyre-GC in 45 min, E180-GC in 35 min. Additionally, GC-Utica in 30min or GC-SF in 15 min. So together, 1 hour and 15 from Dyre to Utica or 1 hour and 5 from E180 to Utica.

With a good crew and no delays, during off peak

Dyre->GC: 41-43 mins.

180->GC: 30-32 mins. (Dyre to 180 is about 11 mins.)

GC->Utica: 27-29 mins.

GC->Bowling Green: 12-13 mins., so adding 2 for going to South Ferry is reasonable.

[realizm]

Keep in mind that runtime also goes up with dwell time, and the subways have never been more crowded. I imagine the contrast would be the starkest with the due to all the growth in the neighborhoods around it; is there data for ridership in 1968 publicly available?

 

That would be a good point of research. I've found some sources and Andrew JC reviewed it, it could be tainted stats by the NYCTA to get a US Dept grant for the QBL bypass/reverse signalling option. I will have to retrieve it somehow and get back to you on that one.

[MHV9218]

Alright, here's the good stuff. 

 

A - 8 AV EXP: 207 to 42: 35 min

                     42 to Lefferts: 45 min

                     42 to FR: 65 min

                     [207 to Lefferts: 1 hour 20 min]

                     [207 to FR: 1 hour 40 min]

 

AA - 8 AV LCL: 168 to Hudson Term (WTC): 35 min

 

B - 6 AV-WEST END: 42 to Coney Island: 50 min (168th to 42nd not listed)

 

CC - 8 AV-BRONX LCL: Bedford Park to 59: 30 min

                                    59 to Hudson Term: 45 min

                                    [bedford Park to Hudson Term: 1 hour 15 min)

 

D - 6 AV-BRIGHTON EXP: 205 to 42: 35 min

                                       42 to CI: 50 min

                                       [205th to CI: 1 hour 25 min]

 

E - 8 AV-QUEENS EXP: 179 to Hudson Term: 45 min

                                   179 to Far Rock: 55 min

                                   179 to Rockaway Park: 50 min

 

F - 6 AV-QUEENS-BROOKLYN: 179 to 42: 35 min

                                               42 to CI: 50 min

                                               [179 to CI: 1 hour 25 min]

 

GG - BROOKLYN-QUEENS LCL: 71 to Smith-9: 45 min

                                                 71 to Church: 55 min

 

KK - 6AV-BWAY BROOKLYN: no times listed

 

LL - 14 ST CANARSIE: Rockway Park to 8 Av: 35 min

 

M - MYRTLE AV-BROAD ST: Metropolitan to Broad: 30 min

 

MJ - MYRTLE AV LCL: Metropolitan to Bridge-Jay: 25 min

 

N - BWAY SEA BEACH EXP: 57 to CI: 50 min

 

QB - BWAY EXP BRIGHTON LCL: CI to 57 7 AV: 50 min

 

QJ - JAMAICA BRIGHTON: 168 to Broad EXP: 40 min

                                         168 to Broad LCL: 50 min

                                         Broad to CI: 40 min

                                         [168 to CI LCL: 1 hour 30 min]

                                         [168 to CI EXP: 1 hour 20 min]

 

RR - BWAY 4TH AV LCL: Ditmars to 42: 20 min

                                     42 to 95, BK - 40 min

                                     [Ditmars to 95 - 60 min]

 

RR - NASSAU ST 4TH AV LCL: Chambers to 95: 30 min

 

HH - ROCKAWAY PARK: Euclid to Rockaway Park: 25 min

 

HH - FAR ROCKAWAY: Euclid to Far Rockaway: 30 min

 

SS - PROSPECT PK-FRANKLIN AV SHUTTLE: no times listed

 

SS - 9 AV-DITMAS AV SHUTTLE: no times listed

 

SS - TIMES SQ-GRAND CENTRAL SHUTTLE: no times listed

[Jsunflyguy]

Far Rock is 5 more minutes on an trip after WTC? that seems off.

[MHV9218]

Far Rock is 5 more minutes on an trip after WTC? that seems off.

 

You're right, I made a typo. The 55 and 45 to Far Rock and Rock Pk are times from Hudson Terminal. So 179 to FR is 1 hour 40, or so. Not clear about going from the terminal outbound, though.

[Jsunflyguy]

Ah, makes perfect sense.

Also of note, 207-42 is timetabled at 30 minutes or less on the .

168 to Chambers is 27 minutes on the and 34 on the

has between 37 and 42 minutes for a trip.

The time listed was probably including the Express run, it's more like an hour these days (as opposed to 50 minutes). Also as a daily F rider I seem to get 38 minutes from Parsons to Midtown.

Seems like the MTA is within 2-3 minutes of it's historic times, but is still measurably slower than before.
 

[bobtehpanda]

The is pretty on point; it's generally south of Rockefeller that the starts slowing down.

 

Also, if anything should happen in between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt, all hell breaks loose. But I think 179 to 42 in 35 minutes is still very close to what's done today.

[AndrewJC]

Watch it! What was scheduled may in no way have reflected reality. There's been a lot more attention in recent years (decades, really) paid toward making the schedules achievable.

 

And don't forget that the trains were all slowed down after the 1995 Williamsburg Bridge crash - only on the L has the old performance been restored.

[realizm]

Watch it! What was scheduled may in no way have reflected reality. There's been a lot more attention in recent years (decades, really) paid toward making the schedules achievable. And don't forget that the trains were all slowed down after the 1995 Williamsburg Bridge crash - only on the L has the old performance been restored.

 

True!