mrsman

My first comment is that it is important to keep in mind that lines is not the same as number of trains. If a service branches out to three terminals, it should have three letters. If a service branches out to two terminals, it should have two letters. But don't assume tha each line has the same number of trains. Ideally, each full service can carry 30 TPH. If the service (i.e. 6th Ave) divides into two lines (( , ) each line carries 15 TPH. If the service (i.e. Cranberry Tunnel) divides into three lines ( ) each line carries 10 TPH. And I don't believe it would be confusing - it's actually less confusing to have each separate terminal represented by a different line designation. In today's system, I cannot fathom why it's a good idea to have trains go to both Lefferts and Far Rockaway. It's one thing to have an occasional short-line train, like that terminates at Whitehall instead of going to Bay Ridge. But to Lefferts is a different terminal, and it's especially confusing to tourists who are headed to JFK. Simply re-desingating the to Lefferts as does not mean that we are increasing the number of trains, we are just changing the designation. Thank you for your comments and sorry for taking this a little off topic. I just wanted to demonstrate that if you connect SAS as one train, you can have a deinterlined SAS with a deinterlined subway system. The basic thing is that in order for that to work, 2nd Ave trains have to go straight down and no longer connect to Broadway express - but a transfer should be put in place to the extent possible. There are so many connections possible out of Broadway that it is a good train to connect to And I agree with earlier commenters that it may be a good idea to shift trains in some way south of 72nd to 3rd Ave. The key is that SAS must provide good connections to the crosstown subways at (63rd, 60th, 53rd, and 42nd) which will provide connection to and also connects to Broadway trains, 8th Ave trains, and possibly depending upon the realignment 6th Ave trains (my system doesn't route 6th Ave on either 63rd or 53rd but it's possible to do so, if desired.) For SAS to be successful it has to have good transfer connections. If it ran on 3rd from 66th to 34th, it will be very close to the existing Lex stations on the crosstown subways and promote easy connections. If it stayed on 2nd, transfers are possible, but it will have a necessarily longer walk. This is also the reason why I favor bringing SAS to the Nassau line. SAS can transfer to 6th Ave at Grand St, and then reach all of the available trains at Chambers and Fulton.

A follow up qn to the above is what to do about the 6 Ave local? I don't believe there is a need for the train, as the only service left is a local train from 57/6 to WTC. The 6 Ave express can utilize the local track to service 23 and 14. The local platforms at 34, 42, 47, and 57 should IMO be used for a PATH extension. Ideally, pATH should be a free transfer into the system, but I would not recommend a track tie in. But the existing track and tunnels there can be used to bring more NJ folks into the heart of Midtown, especially as it will no longer be needed for NYC subway trains as the 6 Ave local is superfluous.

I haven't mapped this out completely - not too good with graphic skills. But I think the best routing would be along White or Franklin Street, a connection from Broadway to Centre. It will be a small u-turn. Doing this would allow for the trains to reach Canal Street and all of the transfer opportunities there to Bwy exp and . Of course, no need for the trains to stop at the same station twice, so I would probably abandon the platrforms along Centre Street. You are correct about the problem of abandoning a lot of the Broadway BMT between Canal and Whitehall, so either we leave a few TPH to go down there, or perhaps not connect Bwy locals to Willy Br. IT would be nice to have a direct connection for J/Z trains to Midtown, but I guess those people will have to either transfer to the M or make some other transfer. In that case, go back to the previous proposal: CPW exp - 8 Ave exp - Cranberry CPW loc - 6 Ave line - M Br N Upper 2 Ave - 2 AVE - Montague Tunnel* 63 tunnel - BWY EXP - M BR S 60 tunnel - Bwy loc - Montague tunnel* 53 tunnel - 8 Ave loc - W4 switch - Rutgers/Williamsburg Consttuct switches so 8 Ave express can reach Spring, and 6 Ave "express" can reach 14th and 23rd. *Montague tunnel will be reverse branched, 1/2 of the 2nd Ave trains and 1/2 of the Broadway locals will terminate at Broad or Whitehall and the rest will merge into the tunnel to service Brooklyn. Fewer Rutgers trains,so no CUlver express. M train will migrate from 8 Ave local to bridge to Myrtle. J/Z will still service Nassau Street line, but ternimate at Canal or Chambers, and not go all the way to Broad, as the SAS wil merge in and take up all the capacity of the line between Chambers and Broad. I believe that if the SAS merges into the line north of Chambers, tracks will still allow for J/Z service to terminate at Chambers and not interfere with SAS. In that case, J/Z will still have connections to 4-5-6 and SAS at Chambers, connections to 6, Bwy locals, and Bwy expresses at Canal, and all of the 8 Ave locals at Essex. That seems quite reasonable to me. In my view, SAS should be constructed to connect to grand st for the transfer to Manhattan Bridge, and then hit Chambers and Fulton, with all of the connections there.

Carrying the above one step further, you can now see how all the lines do connect: Conc exp/Inwood exp - CPW exp - 8 Ave exp - Cranberry - Fulton lines (loc to Euclid, exp to Lefferts, exp to Far Rockaway) [A,C,H] BLUE Conc loc/W Hts - CPW loc - 6 Ave line - Grand St station - M Br N - Brighton exp/loc [B,D] ORANGE Dyre Ave Bx/ 125th Street line - Upper 2 Ave - 2 Ave - Grand St station - Nassau line - Montague tunnel - 4 Ave local - Bay Ridge [T,V] LIGHT BLUE* (some trains terminate at Broad) 179 loc/179 exp/ J Ctr - QB exp - 63 tunnel - Bwy exp - M Br S - 4 Ave exp - West End/Sea Beach [N,Q,R] YELLOW Astoria - 60 tunnel - Bwy loc - Willy Br- Myrtle/Jamaica [J,M,Z] YELLOW Forest Hills - QB local - 53 tunnel - 8 Ave loc - W4 switch - Rutgers - Culver [E,F] BLUE * Alternatively, T and V can take on the brown color, as Willy Br trains are now yellow.

The only way I can see a being introduced and not further intermingling would be to force all 2nd Ave trains to stay on 2nd Ave and not push trains onto Broadway BMT. Of course, for this to be successful, the must have easy connections to all the Lexington stations of the crosstown lines (63, 60, 53, 42). Something like this might also remedy the transferring ability between 63/Lex and 60/Lex. A very quick primer on deinterlining is that every northern portal (CPW exp, CPW loc, 2 Ave, 63 tunnel, 60 tunnel, 53 tunnel) should be connected to one trunk line each (8 Ave exp/loc, 6 Ave exp/loc, Broadway exp/loc) and then connected to a southern portal (M Br N, M Br S, Rutgers, Cranberry, Montague). Currently, there are 6 northern portals, 6 trunk lines, and 5 southern portals. The sixth southern portal is the WTC terminal, which has limited capacity. (Williamsbug Bridge is not considered a portal for my discussion since the 6th Ave locals can serve both RUtgers or the W Bridge, so one trunk line serving two crossings - so I count this as one portal serving both Rutgers and Williamsburg not two.) The introduction of a 2nd Ave line thru Midtown provides a seventh trunk line, but we still have six northern portals, and five southern portals (but connections can be made to better connect to the Williamsburg bridge). Regardless, the introduction of 2nd Ave will create a superfluous trunk line. The current system could be deinterlined in the following way, not perfect but possible: CPW exp - 8 Ave exp - Cranberry CPW loc - 6 Ave exp - M Br N Upper 2 Ave - Bwy exp - M Br S 63 tunnel - 6 Ave loc - Rutgers/Willy Bridge 60 tunnel - Bwy loc - Montague tunnel 53 tunnel - 8 Ave loc - WTC Now if we introduce 2 Ave, we can rearrange this a little bit, but it would still leave one of the existing trunks as largely superfluous: CPW exp - 8 Ave exp - Cranberry CPW loc - 6 Ave exp - M Br N Upper 2 Ave - 2 AVE - MONTAGUE TUNNEL??? 63 tunnel - BWY EXP - M BR S 60 tunnel - Bwy loc - Montague tunnel 53 tunnel - 8 Ave loc - W4 switch - Rutgers/Williamsburg 57/6 Av - 6 Ave loc - W4 switch - WTC By tying in the 2nd Ave as one line and having the Bwy expresses connect to 63rd street tunnel to Queens, we can maintain some semblance of deinterlining. (The sole exception is at the Montague tunnel. I envision 2nd Ave servicing Grand Street and then tunneling to take over the Nassua line somewhere between Canal and Chambers, so that it also feeds Montague. Bwy locals and 2 Ave trains will both feed into the tunnel, but half of each line will terminate in manhattan at Whitehall or Broad. JZ trains will terminate at Canal.) By making use of the W4 swich, 8 Ave locals can now outlet to Rutgers or Williamsburg. What this all means is that the 6 Ave locals are largely superfluous as they no longer connect to a northern poral or a southern portal, and they no longer need to. They are now a midtown-downtown train and could simply be deleted from service. If this 6 Ave Manhattan train is deleted from service, new switches should be put in place so that 8 Ave express can service the Spring St station and the single CPW local-6 Ave -Man Br line can service 14th and 23 rd. Another improvement is a direct connection from Broadway local to Williamsburg Bridge. Under the above plan, we will now have a perfect match of 6 northern portals, 6 southern portals, and 6 trunk lines: CPW exp - 8 Ave exp - Cranberry CPW loc - 6 Ave line - M Br N Upper 2 Ave - 2 Ave - Montague tunnel 63 tunnel - Bwy exp - M Br S 60 tunnel - Bwy loc - Willy Br 53 tunnel - 8 Ave loc - Rutgers

It seems like there is bad design in Chicago and Los Angeles that allows for an accident to end up on the tracks. IMO, they need more strudy barriers to keep the trucks off the rails. ANd if it seems like this is a good idea for certain corridors in NY, then it should be built to top standards to avoid the impact of collision. Realistically speaking, a highway may be the only place one can put a surface train or el route these days, and many more extension could probably be built if such corridors were used. Subway tunnels are really expensive and probably won't be utilized for anything other than small connectors and whatever happens to the 2nd Ave subway.

You are right about that. In reality, this improvement alone would have only had a marginal benefit. If it could be built in conjuntion with other improvements to the iRT (Grand Concourse, Rogers), then we might actually be able to force more trains through there. The MTA should be given a little more flexibility with some of these pilot projects. Try it out for 3 months and see if it improves travel times. Who wins and who loses and by how much. Look at 14th st busway. A lot of naysayers, but once it was implemented it had proved to be quite popular.

I want to thank @Union Tpke for your post from Dec. 26 with pictures of the report about MTA's plan to address E180th by making all Dyre Ave trains local and the public's reaction which killed such proposal. As many of us who favor deinterlining know that by eliminating the places where trains can cross each other's paths, we can remove real bottlenecks in the system and thus make it a better system for all (passengers, operators, trains, etc.). But when doing so may ruin someone's commute, or be perceived to ruin someone's commute, you have to answer to the public and then such a no-brainer improvement will simply not be done. Pushing Dyre Ave trains local along the 149-180 stretch, and pushing WPR trains express over same stretch, clearly will avoid a lot of backups at the E180 junction. Doing so could be a cheap way to avoid delays and possibly allow more trains along this stretch. Sadly, a pilot to try out the service pattern change for a few months was not allowed. A dramatic improvement in their running times may have improved their commute, even with a transfer. IMO, part of the problem was that the service pattern didn't offer anything to be gained for Dyre Ave commuters. If you are essentially going to force all dyre Ave commuters to get off their trains at E180th and wait for an express to 149th, the only way that would be feasible would be a significant service increase to Dyre Ave. IIRC, during rush hour, there are 12 TPH #2 trains, 7 TPH #5 trains to WPR, and 7 TPH #5 trains to Dyre. Dyre Ave customers may have to wait awhile at thier home stations, but once they do, they get the train they want. So, the only solution would have been more Dyre Ave trains, albeit locals, and fewer WPR trains which would all be express. Would that have been palatable?

IMO, this seems like so much duplication that it doesn't seem worth it. The only section that would seem to make sense to convert would be the elevated portion of the 7. Since it is busier than N, IMO it would have made sense to tie the Flushing line to the 60th St tunnel and the Astoria line to the Steinway Tunnels. Alternatively, once can tie both the Astoria and the Flushing lines into the 60th St tunnels, but that would be a bit of a service cut. The only other alternative would be to tie some of the other elevated lines as extensions of B division lines. I know that some plans out there convert Dyre Ave as an extension of the future SAS.

Politically, and probably operationally, it is preferable to tie the Bay ridge line to the Montague tunnel and retain other lines' access to the Bridge. So if is possible to construct improvements to the 38th St yard (including connections to the 4th Ave main that reduce interference with West End service), then a consistent Bay Ridge-Astoria service can be provided and that would go a long way to deinterlining Broadway and DeKalb. I just hope that it can be done in the short term, since so much of this interlining is causing tremendous delays along the Broadway lines.

T to Dyre Ave is correct. In order to provide service to 45th and 53rd, you need to have switches between the local and express tracks south of where West End branches off and north of 45th. Those switches are not currently present and would require some new constrution. Alternatively, the local tracks south of 36th can simply be closed and a platform extension created on 45th and 53rd to extend the platform to the current express tracks. All Bay Ridge and Sea Beach trains will then stop at those two stations before going express at 36th.* Not that certain smaller construction projects aren't justified, but given time and costs for the MTA to do anything, I believe one must first analyze what can be done without construction and then add in construction projects as justified to make the service even better. If those switches were present, then yes, you could route all 6 Ave trains to 4th Ave express to service Bay Ridge and Sea Beach. Route all Broadway expresses from 2nd Ave to Brighton local and express. Route all Broadway locals from Astoria to West End. Each line would have nearly full capacity of service on their Midtown segments, although Broadway expresses would be limited to the turning capacity of 2nd Ave / 96 St until that line gets extended and branches to two terminals. As I keep thinking about this, I am convinced that the only way to deinterline both DeKalb and 4 Av/36 St without a significant service cut would require one of the lines that currently has direct access to the Manhattan Bridge (Brighton, West End, Sea Beach) to lose such access and be forced into the Montague tunnel. And I believe part of the theory is that is OK to force all West End customers to the tunnel, because they will get more consistent service, more trains, less intermingling, and they can manage such transferring with a cross-platform at 4 Av/36 st. While this does add time to the trip of a West End customer, it can still be viewed as a positive given better service that would result. And I think that is the general "theory" of deinterlining. We may eliminate direct access for a lot of people, but the untangling can result in an overall better experience - more frequency and capacity. * Similar considerations are contemplated in some deinterlining plans that force all 8th Ave locals to Queens and all 8th Ave expresses to CPW. The upper level platforms at 50th St for the C train would no longer have any train service. Yet, it is a busy station and there should be a provision for trains from CPW to stop there. the addition of switches (or platform extensions) can provide that all of the 8th Ave expresses will also be able to stop at 50th Street.

Thank you for the kind words, T to Dyre. If I'm understanding you correctly, your preference is to Sea Beach, to West End, 2nd Ave to Brighton express, and 2nd Ave to Brighton local. A de-interlining of DeKalb, just in the reverse of my Option 2 suggestion with a 6th Ave - 4th Ave exp and Broadway exp - Brighton. That should be fine. As far as the local trains go, I believe you're suggesting from Astoria to Whitehall, from Forest HIlls to Bay Ridge, and from Jamaica to Bay Ridge. If that's the case, the qn is whether this is enough service for Astoria? Is it OK to still bring QB trains onto the Broadway BMT? Can Bay Ridge turn back two lines worth of trains, and ? Would the above work better with the elimination of , increasing service (limited to the turning capacity of Whitehall) and increasing service to better serve Bay Ridge? FIguring out what to do with the local trains is the hardest aspect of DeKalb deinterlining. Ideally, we'd just route all trains from Astoria to Bay RIdge and be done, but without a proper yard we have to think out of the box. I'm glad that you acknowledge the main problem of the N shifting from local to express. That should simply not be done. Broadway should have two locals and two expresses and the two should not intermingle. I had done a thorough analysis of the DeKalb problem at reddit:

I have toyed with two ideas on Broadway deinterlining. Both options keep Queens Blvd trains off the Broadway BMT and prevent interlining between express and local Broadway trains. Both are part of larger systemwide deinterlining plans, looking at what can be done without new construction. Option 1 - Broadway deinterlining, partial DeKalb deinterlining, 6 Ave service to Bay Ridge to Brighton local. to 4th Ave local to Bay Ridge. 2 Ave to Broadway express to 4th Ave express to Sea Beach. 2 Ave to Broadway express to 4th Ave express to West End. Astoria to Broadway local to Montague tunnel to Brighton express. Astoria to Broadway local to Whitehall. Basically, this isolates the Broadway express from all interference and provides a direct link to the 4th Ave express. 6th Ave express and Broadway locals do interline, as is necessary to provide Astoria with access to the CI yard and Bay Ridge with access to the Concourse Yard. Essentially, Gold Street is deinterlined as the 6th Ave express and Broadway express do not interfere with each other at all. THe trains that stop at Dekalb are not deinterlined, as trains are linked by switch to Brighton, trains are linked by switch to the 4th Ave local, and trains switch between the two sets of tracks from 6th Ave to Brighton. One side benefit of this routing is that every south Brooklyn BMT station has a direct link to the Manhattan Bridge on at least one train. Brighton express service to De Kalb, Downtown Brooklyn, and Lower Manhattan. West End/Sea Beach customers have direct access to the Broadway express, can cross-platform to the 6th Ave express at Barclay's, and can reach Lower Manhattan by double cross platform transfer (to at Barclay's and to at DeKalb). Bay Ridge customers have direct access to 6th Ave express, can transfer to the Broadway express at any 4th Ave express station, and can transfer to to Lower Manhattan at DeKalb. Brighton customers have direct access to 6th Ave express and can transfer to the at any Brighton express station for Lower Manhattan. Brighton customers do not have direct access to the Broadway express, but can reach the area from City Hall to Union Square by transferring to the at Broadway-Laffayette. As is always true, for most of Midtown (23rd - 57th) most 6th Ave stations are about an avenue away from a Broadway station and vice versa. Option 2 - Broadway deinterlining, full DeKalb deinterlining, J/Z service to Bay Ridge to Brighton express. to Brighton local. 2 Ave to Broadway express to 4th Ave express to Sea Beach. 2 Ave to Broadway express to 4th Ave express to West End. Astoria to Broadway local to 4th Ave local to West End. Astoria to Broadway local to Whitehall. Jamaica Center to Nassau Street to Montague tunnel to 4th Ave local to Bay Ridge. Here, are fully deinterlined through all the DeKalb area switches. connect the Montague tunnel to the 4th Ave local. Reminiscent of the old M service to Brooklyn that existed prior to to 6th Ave, one set of local 4th Ave trains i.e. will go to West End and one set of local 4th Ave trains will go to Bay Ridge.This necessarily means some level of interlining at the 4th Ave/36 St junction between the movements of , but similar to what existed when the brown M train ran. Some trains won't interfere with each other necessarily, like and , but it does require a careful merge. Of the two trains on the West End branch, I imagine the to be a real express, starting at Bay Pkwy and only making stops at 62nd, 9th Ave, 36 St, Barclay's, Canal, and Union Square before hitting Herald Square. (OBvisouly, south of 36th only in the rush hour direction.) The train will service all stations on the West End line, all the way to CI. All Brighton and Sea Beach stations have direct access to the Manhattan Bridge. 4th Ave local stations and West End local stations would require a transfer to an express for access to the Manhattan Bridge. West End /Sea Beach customers have direct access to the Broadway express, can cross-platform to at Barclay's for Lower Manhattan, and can reach the 6th Ave express by double cross platform transfer (to at Barclay's and to at DeKalb). Brighton customers have direct access to 6th Ave express and can transfer to the at DeKalb for Lower Manhattan. Brighton customers do not have direct access to the Broadway express, but can reach the area from City Hall to Union Square by transferring to the at Broadway-Laffayette. As is always true, for most of Midtown (23rd - 57th) most 6th Ave stations are about an avenue away from a Broadway station and vice versa. West End local customers on the will liklely transfer to the at earliest opportunity. For those that don't, they can directly access Lower Manhattan, transfer to the Broadway express at any West End and 4th Ave express station, and transfer to for 6th Ave service at DeKalb. Bay Ridge customers on the will liklely transfer to the at earliest opportunity. For those that don't, they can directly access Lower Manhattan, transfer to the Broadway express at any 4th Ave express station, and transfer to for 6th Ave service at DeKalb. Under this plan, there is access to BOTH sides of Lower Manhattan, Church Ave along or Nassau Street along , but admittedly the two lines are generally pretty close throughout the financial district.