Amiri the subway guy

5 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

Nice english, almost had a stroke trying to read that no offense, but how do you not know what the additional tracks would go anyway? It would've been the express tracks for SAS, something that many people that have taken it complained about not having and even sued the  for it. I don't know what happened after that to be honest, but I can definitely say it would've been beneficial. I get that the line was meant to alleviate crowding from Lexington to SAS, but what about those wanting express service? I highly doubt people from Lexington that is taking the  and  would want to take the  or . It definitely would help alleviate passengers from the  and I could see it maybe running faster than it since it's not as many stops compared to it. 

I was thinking the express tracks can go underneath phase 1 and 2 while they rise up on 55th street 

11 hours ago, Vulturious said:

It's complicated because it would be very expensive to build a new tunnel from Hanover Square on Fulton. It is even more expensive when we got people in charge that want to spend extra money to make it look fancy, something that the first phase screwed up on. The infrastructure and design alone was a lot of money, the first phase was the most expensive subway line in the world last I checked. Just for 3 new stations and one station redesign. If they were smart about their approach, they might've been able to at least have one or maybe two more tracks with just as much money spent. I could be getting some of the details wrong or missing a few, but regardless my point is that it would be very expensive.

Having connections to other lines such as Nassau would be very beneficial. Sure a connection to Fulton is just as beneficial, but the connection to Nassau at least allows for more connection into Brooklyn, you could easily have another route from South Brooklyn be rerouted along SAS which the  can take advantage of. The connection to Fulton would have more perks for trains coming Fulton, if Grand St conversion does actually happen (which it would),  and  trains can easily be rerouted along it and  trains wouldn't get so screwed every time something happens south of West 4 St along 8 Av line.

When where the phase 1 and 2 additional two tracks would’ve gone anyway 

On 5/4/2019 at 12:12 AM, SubwayFan3000 said:

R62s is on the is mainly because of got R188s, many R142 converted to R188. might get R142s from the if CBTC on Lexington Avenue is Completed, then will get R62.

The R62s will be long gone by the time CBTC is completed

Here’s how the rolling stock might look like later 

 R262s

 R142s

 R142As R142s

 R262s R142As

 R142s

 R262s

 R188s

 42 street shuttle R262s

4 hours ago, mrsman said:

That seems like an interesting routing.  From Chatham Square follow Park Row and link into the Nassau line somewhere south of the Chambers station.  The digging on Park Row should be easier than on other portions of the route because much of the street is closed to regular traffic.

While it would be nice to connect SAS to Chambers (either by routing it into the station or by building a new station at Police Plaza and providing a transfer), it does not seem to be a critical need.  SAS trains can transfer to  at Fulton and presumably if SAS trains will run into the Grand Street station a transfer could (and should) be provided to Bowery  .  So the only train that SAS will miss without a Chambers connection would be  .  

So with the supposed routing, some SAS trains can continue into Brooklyn via the Montague tunnel and make all the transfers that the  can make in Brooklyn.   at Boro Hall,  at Jay, and of course DeKalb and Atlantic.  I imagine that half of the SAS trains will go in the tunnel and half will terminate at Broad.  Likewise, half of the Broadway locals will terminate at Whitehall and half will continue into the tunnel.  Both  and the SAS service can then continue south as some form of 4th Ave local, perhaps to Bay Ridge and/or the West End line.

Lengthening Fulton and Broad platforms is not necessarily cheap, but would it be cheaper than a brand new tunnel on Water Street in the lowest portions of Manhattan?  Would it be cheaper than a brand new tunnel to Brooklyn?  Would a transfer from Fulton/Water be as convenient to  trains as it would be if the platform were under Fulton/Nassau?

IMO, the connections at Fulton alone, even without an extension to Brooklyn, and even without any other tansfers south of Grand, would fully integrate SAS into the system.  And is the only remaining issue the feasibility of platform lengthening at two stations?  We all know that platform lengthening was done in the past on the original IRT subway.  Doing so here would be a good investment as well.

Just build phase 4 with provision for a new tunnel to Fulton st why it that so complicated

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

Well for starters, nothing is in the way of a ten car platform on Water St because nothing is there yet. The same cannot be said of the Nassau Line, which like the rest of the subway has a lot of columns supporting everything that would have to be dealt with, and Fulton St itself is ultra-constrained given the double stacking of the platforms that was deemed necessary when it was built. Also, you would then be removing Fulton access from Jamaica; Fulton has only two tracks. This is a huge negative.

There are other ways to skin the connections cat. One I've heard is to swap the Sixth and Second Avenue lines at Grand, so Second Avenue goes over the bridge (getting all the connections) and Sixth goes down Water St.

Just build phase 4 with provision for a new tunnel to Fulton st why it that so complicated

3 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

By the time Phase 3 opens. The system will probably have phased out all 75 footers from passenger service. (I personally think that whatever replaces the 68/68A’s is going to be a 60 footer train model similar to the 143, 160, 179 and 211) The issue with a Williamsburg Extension is the lack of Connections to other subway routes. The most you’d get is the  and  trains and a few SBS routes whereas an SAS-South Brooklyn Connection provides much more from Atlantic Alone. I’m personally on the fence about a  Williamsburg  West End/Brighton idea but the network benefits of such an idea are undeniably present. 
 

Now to stray a little bit from SAS, what are your thoughts on upgrading the BMT Eastern Division to widen curves, remove bottlenecks and accommodate 10 Car Trains?

Well here’s how to improve BMT Eastern Division, let’s start with the L train since that route NEEDS THE TRAIN CAR EXPANSION THE MOST. So we should start off with the elevated stations since it would be easier. Then we can move on to underground sections. Now let’s move on to the myrte ave and Jamaica lines. The M train will be lengthen first Since the M train has a higher ridership runs via 6th ave and queens blvd it would be a MUCH HIGHER PRIORITY to lengthen it to 10 cars last but not least we would lengthen the J/Z trains to 10 cars.  We would finish off with the lower Manhattan part. Oh and Marcy ave would be covered into an island station and since Lorimer st and hewes st are way too close to each other I believe we should abandon them entirely and build one new station at Union ave with a connection to the G train. And Norwood ave and Cleveland st should also be close and replace by a new station at Shepherd ave. Next to eliminate the bottleneck problem at myrte ave building a new flying junction between the Flushing Av station and Myrtle Ave station. The current local tracks would be moved outward so that two new tracks can be added between. These two new tracks would connect to both the local and express tracks. As they approach Myrtle Ave the new tracks would rise up and a new upper level station would be built over the existing Myrtle Ave station, though slightly to the west. I propose having myrte ave converted into a duel level station. Oh and another proposal I have in mind is building a third track for peak way express service so the J train would make all stops and the Z train would be converted into a Peak way express service. I was going to eliminate the Z train entirely and replace it with <J> service but I figured Z would be even better since it would reduce confusion the express track would be build between 121 st and crescent st. And we must also expand the Train yards of each BMT eastern division lines. I don’t know how much people would benefit but by looking at vanshnookenraggen Twitter post here the estimate 
L train 8 cars: 46,656
L train 10 cars: 58,320
M train 8 cars: 17,496
M train 10 cars: 24,300
J/Z train 8 cars: 21,384
J/Z train 10 cars: 36,450

6 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

All you have to do is figure out a way to build that Nassau St connection without shutting off Willy B, Rutgers, and Manhattan Bridge service for 5-10 years. And also extend all the platforms on Nassau St to 10 cars, and make all the stations ADA accessible. 🙄

 

Just now, Amiri the subway guy said:

Yes but I said earlier removing the  from the Manhattan bridge would cause Coney Island riders to lose access to the 6th Avenue Central Park West and Grand Concourse and removing the  from Williamsburg Bridge would cause riders to lose access to Nassau st line AKA the only connecting to lower Manhattan. That plan would pisses off many riders. Why can’t we just connect the 2nd Avenue line to Williamburg bridge instead (but again not worth if it at the expense losing access to lower Manhattan) Williamburg is a much lower priority compared to the rest of 2nd Avenue line plan. My plan for Williamburg would either be to route a SAS K train to eastern parkway down via a new tunnel and subway line Bedford ave in Williamburg Brooklyn or via a new tunnel to Williamburg Brooklyn via south 3rd st Scholes st Morgan ave and Wilson Avenue 

PS And BMT eastern division cannot handle 75 foot long trains trains

6 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

All you have to do is figure out a way to build that Nassau St connection without shutting off Willy B, Rutgers, and Manhattan Bridge service for 5-10 years. And also extend all the platforms on Nassau St to 10 cars, and make all the stations ADA accessible. 🙄

Yes but I said earlier removing the  from the Manhattan bridge would cause Coney Island riders to lose access to the 6th Avenue Central Park West and Grand Concourse and removing the  from Williamsburg Bridge would cause riders to lose access to Nassau st line AKA the only connecting to lower Manhattan. That plan would pisses off many riders. Why can’t we just connect the 2nd Avenue line to Williamburg bridge instead (but again not worth if it at the expense losing access to lower Manhattan) Williamburg is a much lower priority compared to the rest of 2nd Avenue line plan. My plan for Williamburg would either be to route a SAS K train to eastern parkway down via a new tunnel and subway line Bedford ave in Williamburg Brooklyn or via a new tunnel to Williamburg Brooklyn via south 3rd st Scholes st Morgan ave and Wilson Avenue 

I wanna list a proposal for my 2nd Avenue line plan. 
 

Let’s start off with the Bronx

 

So remember how the 3rd ave line was demolished well while it was a reasonable decision it was a terrible mistake to leave 3rd ave without a replacement because it’s the largest population in the Bronx so trust me 3rd ave IS IN DIRE NEED OF A SUBWAY SYSTEM. So I propose having The T train start at White plains rd gun hill rd transfer to the 2 and 5 trains. Then it will go to Williams bridge Gun hill rd

meeting up with the V train. The T train will be the full time local the V train will be the weekday only express.

Local service only stops 

204 st

Bedford park blvd

187th st

180st st

171st st Claremont pkwy

168th st

163rd st

 

Local and Express service stops

Williams bridge Gun hill rd

Fordham plaza

 

Tremont Park 177th st

 

3 ave 149th st

 

3 ave 138th st

 

They both trains will run to Manhattan via the 3rd ave tunnel

 

Maybe we can build express train on the lower level 

 

Both train meet up with the Q train

 

The V train runs express the T train runs local with the Q train

 

Local service only stops

 

116th st

 

106th st

 

86th st

 

Local and Express service stops

 

125th st

 

96th st

 

72nd st

 

A new train line would be built via northern blvd line it would run up to Whitestone expressway then it will be connected to the 63rd st tunnel this train shall be known as the K train the station it will serve

 

&#x200B;

 

Whitestone Expressway 112 st

104 st

Junction blvd

85 st

74 st

Broadway northern blvd

Sunnyside 39 st

21st st Queensbridge

Roosevelt Island

 

Now back to Manhattan 

The K train meets up with the T and V trains at 57 st 

K V express and T local

Local service only stops

50th st

St Vartan Park 34rd st

23rd st

8th st St Marks Place 

Houston st

 

Local sand Express service stops

 

57th st 

42nd st Tudor City

14th st

Grand st

Chatham Sq

Then the K V will run to Brooklyn via a new tunnel underneath the Brooklyn bridge 

While the T train will run to lower Manhattan making these two stops 

Seaport 

Hanover Sq

It would also build with connections to the montage st tunnel to potentially be extended to Brooklyn via 4th ave

 

Back to Brooklyn the V would meet up with the F at East Broadway lower Bergen st would be rebuilt for express service the V would run express the F G would run local 

 

At church ave the V train would continue off to kings highway or maybe ave x running express while the F train remains local

 

culver el would be converted to 4 tracks

 

finally the K train would run down Williamburg Brooklyn via south 3rd st Scholes st Morgan ave and Wilson Avenue 

 

T train run between White Plains Rd Gun Hill Rd Bronx and Hanover Square Manhattan

 

 3rd Avenue Local 2nd Avenue Local 

 

V train run between Wiallimsbrigde 210th st Bronx and Kings Highway Brooklyn

 

3rd Avenue Express 2nd Avenue Express Culver

 

K train run between Whitestone Expressway 112 st Queens and Wilson Avenue Brooklyn

 

Northern Blvd Local 2nd Avenue Express Williamburg local local

 

thats my plan

22 hours ago, Vulturious said:

The , , , and  do not cover pretty fine actually. Have you ridden the  before? I haven't but I always here something bad happening with the . The  for the most part is a very isolated line with nothing to interfere with it at all. It's a good thing too because it allows for maximum service to run  trains. While that might be a good thing, it is also a bad thing at the same time. Because the  is an isolated line, that also means if something were to happen, the  is pretty much screwed entirely. Whether it would be something happening with a train, signal issues, or track maintenance, the whole line gets screwed. The  is a very packed line, I cannot stress that enough. There isn't any extra tracks like a middle express tracks to allow some trains to run express, the whole thing is all local and two tracks only. Then you also got the fact that it is 60 feet of 8 cars long.

The  is pretty much the alternative to the , but there is an issue with that line as well, not only is it all local, but it is also only 8 cars long as well. Williamsburg Bridge cannot handle that many trains running in and out of Brooklyn and Manhattan. Adding an SAS line while keeping the current  and  lines would be hell for everyone. You would have no choice but to get rid of one line, that might as well be the . But then now you got the issue as you said of no direct service into the heart of midtown. How many people want service into Lower Manhattan compared to people that want service into Midtown?

And speaking of direct service, there's always going to be an issue of running direct service. There are multiple threads talking that can relate to direct service one way or another, whether it's directly about direct service or indirectly. Unfortunately, having direct service can bring in a lot of drawbacks. Look at how service runs today or at least pre-COVID, there are a lot of delays. Of course, a good chunk of it can be blamed on other factors like signals, track defects, train issues, etc. However, if all of that was completely fine, you would still experience delays. Where exactly are those said delays then?

Let's take a look at the , currently the  would have to deal with 3 different lines, the , , and . Starting from Coney Island, only delays would be getting the lineup to depart, from there it's completely fine up until 36 St. If a  and  are about to arrive at the same time, one of them will have no choice and be delayed while another passes on by, lets say it's the  that pass through first. Of course that is just one delay, continue on down along 4 Av towards Dekalb Junction,  trains would then be delayed again waiting for the lineup onto the north side of the Manhattan Bridge because an  train is trying to pass through on the south side, but a  might also get in the way of the  which leads to further delays. Then the  finally passes, but the  reaches first and passes on by which is even further delay because both run together along the Manhattan Bridge all the way until 59 St-Columbus Circle where both splits off running on separate tracks. However, an  can get in the way of the  trying to get through because both runs along the same tracks along CPW until 145 St which forces  trains to wait until that passes by. Now it all depends on what the time of day it is of whether or not  trains are running to Bedford Park Blvd or terminating at 145 St.  trains wouldn't really be hurt if they're still continuing express along Concourse, but during the AM Rush, they would be running express towards Manhattan, which means both trains would merge again. You see what I'm talking about. Now you're wondering what does this have to do with anything, well having both  and  trains running into Williamsburg while replacing  and  trains actually work. For starters, the amount of merging the  would have would be reduced which allows for both trains to increase the amount of trains per hour.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is these are proposals and all these proposals will always have their cons. While do not mind sticking with our current service, SAS being brought in should bring in ideas that can help better our current service. Currently, bringing the SAS has brought on more problems than solutions, while it helps relieve service along the Lexington Av line, no express tracks and tons of money wasted upon design and infrastructure.

How many people want service into Lower Manhattan compared to people that want service into Midtown? A whole bunch (aka the same amount) of people who ride the  from Jamaica who ride the train straight to Canal, Chambers, Fulton and Broad St. It's funny how people talk about the (J)/(Z) but don't use it daily.I see videos of the J and Z crowded during rush hours lower Manhattan and seen the ridership grow with the WTC construction. 

1 hour ago, Vulturious said:

You do realize trains can easily swap equipment at any time if needed. Even if a train swap doesn't happen, you could have station lengths extended for that reason and reconstruct the entire line. Of course it's not the best approach, but it's not like the Eastern Division is in the best shape anyway. Many people avoid it because of many things, being too slow, no actual express service, and trains getting in the way of each other. Sooner or later, something is going to need to happen with the Eastern Division. There are a lot of benefits to having the  and  running along the Eastern Division. For starters, you got direct midtown service from Williamsburg, you got direct express service, and 24/7 service into midtown compared to just the Weekdays Only kind of service which is the . Even if they wanted to create a new tunnel into Williamsburg, they might as well have that replace the current Broadway-Brooklyn line. There was an idea creating the South 4 St Subway back in the 30s. 

As for SAS service in South Brooklyn, if the  decides to go with a different approach and go for what they originally had (not sure if it was the original idea, but it was one of them anyway), they can just go and convert Grand St station from being side platforms into island platforms with cross-platform transfers. If people along Concourse are trying to get to Coney Island, they can easily transfer to the  and  at 34 St-Herald Square or transfer to the  at Houston St. I would've included the , but honestly I find taking anything other than the  to Coney faster. 

I got a better plan
 

Phase 1 reroute the M train down to a new tunnel on Houston st stopping at cinton Pitt sts then build new 2nd Ave express K train to east Broadway and Montgomery st and build the new tunnel.

 

Phase 2 connect both to new elevated line at south 4th st and connect Williamburg brigade J/Z trains to the new elevated line the south 4th st would be 4 track line. Since majority wants to get to midtown the J/Z would be the express and K/M would be the local. All 4 trains would stop at Havemeyer st. The local only stops would be S 4th st Broadway with transfer to the G train. 

 

Phase 3 Flushing ave when the Z train would then split up to go to a new super express subway down flushing ave line at myrtle ave Broadway the M train go to the myrtle ave line at forest ave the m train would head off down fresh pond rd where while the Z train terminates at fresh pond rd flushing ave the M train continues 69 st queens blvd. 

 

Phase 4 rebuild the Jamaica Williamburg line from myrtle ave to Broadway junction as four track lines the J being express and K being local. Next the Alabama ave cypress hills part would be demolished and replaced by a new straight elevated line at Jamaica ave Airlington ave highland blvd would be local stops cypress hills would be express stops 75th st 85th st  would be local stops woodhaven blvd would then the terminal for the K train. The J train would then continue to Jamaica center and then extended phase 5 to Jamaica Hollis blvd. What do you think?

 

Alternative plan would be to sent the T train to Jamaica line reroute the Z train down to 2nd Avenue line and reroute the Z train to 2nd Avenue line and with the 2nd Avenue lines connections to midtown this frees up the M train to be rerouted back downtown. 

Phase 1 both the T and Z trains would be connected to a new train tunnel to Williamburg after running on the 2nd ave local. Phase 2 connect the tunnel to new elevated line at south 4th st and connect Williamburg brigade J/M trains to the new elevated line the south 4th st would be 4 track line. The J/M would be the local and T/Z would be the express. All 4 trains would stop at Havemeyer st. The local only stops would be S 4th st Broadway with transfer to the G train. 

Phase 3 Flushing ave when the T train would then split up to go to a new super express subway down flushing ave line at myrtle ave Broadway the M train go to the myrtle ave line at forest ave the M train would head off down fresh pond rd meeting up with the T train the M train terminates at fresh pond rd flushing ave the T train continues to CUNY queens college Kissena blvd. 

Phase 4 rebuild the Jamaica Williamburg line from myrtle ave to Broadway junction as four track lines the J being local and Z being express. Next the Alabama ave cypress hills part would be demolished and replaced by a new straight elevated line at Jamaica ave Airlington ave highland blvd would be local stops cypress hills would be express stops 75th st 85th st  would be local stops woodhaven blvd would then the terminal for the Z train. The J train would then continue to Jamaica center and then extended phase 5 to Jamaica Hollis blvd.

Which plan do you like better

1 hour ago, Vulturious said:

You do realize trains can easily swap equipment at any time if needed. Even if a train swap doesn't happen, you could have station lengths extended for that reason and reconstruct the entire line. Of course it's not the best approach, but it's not like the Eastern Division is in the best shape anyway. Many people avoid it because of many things, being too slow, no actual express service, and trains getting in the way of each other. Sooner or later, something is going to need to happen with the Eastern Division. There are a lot of benefits to having the  and  running along the Eastern Division. For starters, you got direct midtown service from Williamsburg, you got direct express service, and 24/7 service into midtown compared to just the Weekdays Only kind of service which is the . Even if they wanted to create a new tunnel into Williamsburg, they might as well have that replace the current Broadway-Brooklyn line. There was an idea creating the South 4 St Subway back in the 30s. 

As for SAS service in South Brooklyn, if the  decides to go with a different approach and go for what they originally had (not sure if it was the original idea, but it was one of them anyway), they can just go and convert Grand St station from being side platforms into island platforms with cross-platform transfers. If people along Concourse are trying to get to Coney Island, they can easily transfer to the  and  at 34 St-Herald Square or transfer to the  at Houston St. I would've included the , but honestly I find taking anything other than the  to Coney faster. 

But the N and Q trains  will be overcrowded basically screwing over 34 st and that plan basically cuts off Williamburg from lower Manhattan and the shut downs will be a total pain.  That’s why I’m staying better to leave the Manhattan branch unchanged. And wouldn’t be better to just route the T and additional 2nd Ave train on the Williamburg bridge 

Other reasons why I oppose this

1. coney island Riders would lose access to the 6th ave lines AKA the heart of midtown  making Broadway even more crowded then before. PS that plan completely CUTS OFF riders from Central Park West and Grand Concourse the transfer would be too complex. You stated If people along Concourse are trying to get to Coney Island, they can easily transfer to the  and  at 34 St-Herald Square or transfer to the  at Houston St. (Yeah…. Try telling that to the many riders that would be pissed off by these propose changes) you also said that There are a lot of benefits to having the  and  running along the Eastern Division. For starters, you got direct midtown service from Williamsburg, you got direct express service, and 24/7 service into midtown compared to just the Weekdays Only kind of service which is the . (It’s not justifiable or worth it if it’s at the expense of losing lower Manhattan access via the J/Z) 

2. Riders made oppose this serve change this is definitely Guarantee to receive Backlash

3. If major rerouted are needed on the 6th ave line like the rebuilding project the service would be SCREWED. For example the F train could be routed to west end and the D train could be routed to culver in case of emergencies. The Broadway wouldn’t be able to be rerouted to 6th Ave if the B/D gets rerouted. So that plan does FAR MORE HARM THAN GOOD. 

 

in conclusion just route 2nd Ave lines on the Williamsburg bridge instead if necessarily but Williamburg is a much lower priority compared to the rest of 2nd Avenue line 

The L M J/Z got it covered pretty fine

On 3/17/2021 at 12:32 PM, bobtehpanda said:

IIRC I think @RR503 has proposed the following Chrystie St Connection style reconfiguration before

• West End & Brighton Express to 2nd Av
• Jamaica and Myrtle Lines to 6th Av Express
• 6th Av Local to Culvers Local and Express

Personally I think there would be better connectivity to connect today's with the Fulton Local.

Well I disagree with rerouting the B and D to Williamburg I don’t think it a good idea because Brooklyn riders would lose access to the 6th ave line and if reroutings are needed on 6th ave service the entire service would be screwed since at least the current lay out for rerouting allow for trains to go to Coney Island either way. Further more many riders would piss because they don’t want to lose 6th Ave service to Coney Island or lose access to lower Manhattan Nassau in Williamsburg. Not to mention that Jamaica line can’t handle 75 foot long train cars If necessary we should extend a 2nd ave line via a new tunnel to Williamburg. That would require multiple shut downs. And you be pissing off a lot of grand Concourse riders trying to get to Coney Island. And Williamburg trying to get to lower Manhattan Williamburg is a low priority for the SAS. The L and M are crowded, but are not that overwhelmed therefore do not justify letting riders suffer. Just build a new Williamburg subway connected to a 2nd Ave line

On 6/26/2021 at 12:36 PM, pringle5095 said:

It has been quite some time since this thread has seen really any use, but allow me to share my own proposals, if somewhat impractical.

: Unchanged

: 241st-Flatbush via White Plains Road Local, Lenox Avenue Line, 7th Avenue Express, Eastern Parkway Local, Nostrand Avenue Line

: Dyre-Flatbush via Dyre Avenue Local, White Plains Road Express, Lenox Avenue Line, 7th Avenue Express, Eastern Parkway Local, Nostrand Avenue Line

<3>: Dyre-Flatbush via Dyre Avenue Express, White Plains Road Express, Lenox Avenue Line, 7th Avenue Express, Eastern Parkway Local, Nostrand Avenue Line

: Woodlawn-New Lots via Jerome Avenue Line, Lexington Avenue Express, Eastern Parkway Express, New Lots Line

: Pelham-Utica via Pelham Express, Lexington Avenue Express, Eastern Parkway Express, New Lots Line

: Unchanged

: Eliminated, replaced by 

: Unchanged

: Unchanged

: 207th-Far Rockaway via CPW Express, 8th Avenue Express, Fulton Street Express, Rockaway Line

: Bedford-Brighton via Concourse Local, CPW Local, 6th Avenue Express, Brighton Express

: 168th-Lefferts via CPW Express, 8th Avenue Local, Fulton Street Local

: 168th-Lefferts via CPW Express, 8th Avenue Local, Fulton Street Local (Express east of Rockaway Boulevard)

: 205th-Coney via Concourse Express, CPW Local, 6th Avenue Express, Brighton Local

: 71st-Rockaway Park via QBL Local, 8th Avenue Local, Fulton Street Local, Rockaway Line

: Unchanged

: Court-Bergen via Crosstown Line

: Unchanged

<J>: Jamaica Center-Broad via Jamaica Express, Nassau Street Line

: Unchanged

: Metropolitan-Broad via Myrtle Avenue Line, Jamaica Local, Nassau Street Line

: Astoria-Coney via Astoria Express, Broadway Express, 4th Avenue Express, Sea Beach Local

: Astoria-Coney via Astoria Express, Broadway Express, 4th Avenue Express, Sea Beach Express

: 96th-Coney via SAS/Broadway Express, 4th Avenue Express, West End Local

: 96th-Coney via SAS/Broadway Express, 4th Avenue Express, West End Express

: Astoria-95th via Astoria Local, Broadway Local, 4th Avenue Local

: Rockaway Park Shuttle eliminated, with the possibility of one being introduced between 135th and 148th on the Lenox Avenue Line if we really cannot afford to eliminate those two stations entirely.

: Jamaica Center-2nd via Archer Avenue Line, QBL Express, 63rd Street Line, 6th Avenue Local

: Eliminated, replaced by 

: Eliminated, replaced by <J>

 

This would go along with a few station adjustments, namely converting a few stations to express stations.

59th Street-Columbus Circle  

50th Street  

Franklin Avenue  

Rockaway Boulevard  

I would said use Z train instead of <J> it reduces confusion. And I would said reroute the N train to 96 st and reroute the W train to forest hills. Best to leave IRT the way it is. I doubt that cranberry st tunnel could handle 3 SERVICES at once. I strongly disagree with rerouting the M train back to downtown Manhattan and Nassau st. Williamburg uses the M train to get to midtown so rerouting it down midtown is a bad idea.  Orange M train has proven to be a very popular alternative to the L train. And to be perfectly honest the Brown M train was very useless I mean it was basically J train running via Myrtle ave line. Back then The majority of riders often transfer to delanacy st Essex st for F train service to get to midtown. Well the only major downside of the M rerouting is that M train riders did lose one seat ride to lower Manhattan and during rush hours southern Brooklyn , and even that isn’t really a loss especially when you consider the fact that Williamsburg and Bushwick is demanding more midtown service and not many people go to lower Manhattan amd in southern Brooklyn basically no one went EVEN DURING rush hours the trains were nearly empty and if they really want to get to lower Manhattan they can just transfer to the J/Z train. But good proposal 

How would you build a 2nd Ave subway line. 
 

I like the concept, but I hate how it being build. I would love to see phase 3 and phase 4 rethought. The current plan only help people travel better in eastern Manhattan it does PRACTICALLY NOTHING for riders from the Bronx, Queens and/or Brooklyn. 

 

We cannot denied the fact the current 2nd ave plan It’s filled with wasted potential LEFT and RIGHT.  I mean the biggest flaw is that there no express tracks HECK they isn’t even a third track that could be used for emergencies.  

 

If something goes wrong on a 3-4 track line while it would cause delays as least the train can be rerouted to the local or express tracks Meanwhile if something goes wrong at one station on a 2 track line THE ENTIRE LINE is screwed up. They didn’t even try to make room for the express tracks to be added later. At the very least they could make a plan that don’t require express tracks to be build immediately but allows for them to be added later

 

The 2nd Ave subway is a subway line needed to not just relieve congestion along the east side of Manhattan Lexington Ave subway but also many other subways that service the entire city. My main concern about the 2nd ave proposal is that MTA will try and build the cheapest subway it can which the MTA will regret DEARLY when the population grows.

 

The 2nd ave line won’t add any new captivity to the system, as  matter of fact the current plan for 2nd Av LITERALLY REQUIRES riders to use multiple stairs long corridors and transfer to multiple train routes all because planners are either too scared or don’t want to even bother design their projects to full potential. If the 2nd Ave Subway is not designed properly then it will be one of if not the most expensive mistake the MTA makes. The NYC Subway has a long history of poor planning mistakes which have limited service ever since; 2nd ave subway is the PERFECT  opportunity to redeem ourselves.

 

Here’s how I rate it

Phase 1-2 is ok Phase 3 is Poorly designed Phase 4 is possible unnecessary and might not even need to exist

 

Let’s start off with the Bronx

 

So remember how the 3rd ave line was demolished well while it was a reasonable decision it was a terrible mistake to leave 3rd ave without a replacement because it’s the largest population in the Bronx so trust me 3rd ave IS IN DIRE NEED OF A SUBWAY SYSTEM. So I propose having The T train start at White plains rd gun hill rd transfer to the 2 and 5 trains. Then it will go to Williams bridge Gun hill rd

 

meeting up with the V train. The T train will be the full time local the V train will be the weekday only express. Local service only stops 

 

204 st

 

187th st

 

180st st

 

171st st Claremont pkwy

 

168th st

 

163rd st

 

156th st

 

Local and Express service stops

 

Bedford park blvd

 

Fordham plaza

 

Tremont Park 177th st

 

3 ave 149th st

 

3 ave 138th st

 

They both trains will run to Manhattan via the 3rd ave tunnel

 

Maybe we can build express train on the lower level 

 

Both train meet up with the Q train

 

The V train runs express the T train runs local with the Q train

 

Local service only stops

 

116th st

 

106th st

 

86th st

 

Local and Express service stops

 

125th st

 

96th st

 

72nd st

 

A new train line would be built via northern blvd line it would run up to Whitestone expressway then it will be connected to the 63rd st tunnel this train shall be known as the K train the station it will serve

 

&#x200B;

 

Whitestone Expressway 112 st

 

104 st

 

Junction blvd

 

85 st

 

74 st

 

Broadway northern blvd

 

Sunnyside 39 st

 

21st st Queensbridge

 

Roosevelt Island

 

&#x200B;

 

&#x200B;

 

Now back to Manhattan 

The K train meets up with the T and V trains at 57 st 

K V express and T local

Local service only stops

50th st

St Vartan Park 34rd st

23rd st

8th st St Marks Place 

Houston st

 

Local sand Express service stops

 

57th st 

42nd st Tudor City

14th st

Grand st

Chatham Sq

Then the K V will run to Brooklyn via a new tunnel underneath the Brooklyn bridge 

While the T train will run to lower Manhattan making these two stops 

Seaport 

Hanover Sq

It would also build with connections to the montage st tunnel to potentially be extended to Brooklyn via 4th ave

 

Back to Brooklyn the V would meet up with the F at East Broadway lower Bergen st would be rebuilt for express service the V would run express the F G would run local 

 

At church ave the V train would continue off to kings highway or maybe ave x running express while the F train remains local

culver el would be converted to 4 tracks

finally the K train would run to eastern parkway down Bedford ave in Williamburg Brooklyn 

 

T train run between White Plains Rd Gun Hill Rd Bronx and Hanover Square Manhattan

 3rd Avenue Local 2nd Avenue Local 

V train run between Wiallimsbrigde 210th st Bronx and Kings Highway Brooklyn

3rd Avenue Express 2nd Avenue Express Culver
 

K train run between Whitestone Expressway 112 st Queens and Eastern Parkway Bedford Avenue Brooklyn

Northern Blvd Local 2nd Avenue Express Bedford Avenue local 

 

and there  that my plan I just need to find somewhere to make a map

 

On 3/18/2021 at 9:56 PM, vanshnookenraggen said:

Once I get going I can't stop

I got to thinking if the last plan could be made better and I came up with this. Culver and Jamaica/Myrtle are the same as they are now and the  connects to the Montague Tunnel while the runs via a new tunnel to Fulton St. I have the :V: no longer branching in Brooklyn but instead has the option of terminating at Chambers St or continuing as the West End peak express. What I like about this plan is there are even fewer moving parts, less interlining AND now Brighton Beach Line riders have at least one place to now transfer to 2nd Ave where as before they couldn't. The trade off is that now Myrtle riders lose a 2nd Ave connection. However it might be possible to have a new mezzanine connection between Grand St and Bowery stations so that at least Jamaica Line riders could have a connection to 2nd Ave. Myrtle riders will have to have a 3 seat ride... or just take the L instead?

The reason for the switch, or the switch in the first place, is that the famous Atlantic Ave provisions south of Whitehall station in the Montague Tunnel are in a tricky location from a construction point of view.
 

This nifty schematic shows how the tunnels from Broadway and Broad St merge underwater. In the drawing to the right you can see the provisions in checked lines at the bottom left. The issue is that these provisions are sandwiched in between the two South Ferry Terminal buildings (old and new).

I bring this up because it creates expensive technical difficulties. Engineers today want to build tunnels as easy as possible. This is why the current "design" of Phase 4 of 2nd Ave has a tunnel up to 100' below lower Manhattan so to simply avoid all off this above. The issue is that these proposed DEEP stations end up costing $1b or so. The whole point of rerouting 2nd Ave down Nassau St is to avoid all of this cost. But doing this eats up all the space in the Montague Tunnel, space which will conflict with the . The nice thing is that you still don't immediately need a new tunnel. But when you do it gets tricky.

If you built the new tunnel off the Montague provisions you'd have to shut down Slip 3 at South Ferry and that miiiight be a problem. So the alternative is that a new tunnel connects to Broad St instead. As you can see there is nothing there so cordoning off the area for a cofferdam dam is simpler. But this forces all 2nd Ave trains to use Fulton St. Not the end of the world but having the  run down 4th Ave gives the borough better balance in terms of Manhattan service.  via 4th Ave allows transfers to every other downtown Brooklyn service ( - the  of course  ) where as the  via Fulton gives riders fewer options to transfer. An added bonus here is that you can build new switches at Grand St and give the B/D a redundant connection to Brooklyn, one which they lack now.

The reverse problem is true on the Brooklyn side: a tunnel off of Broad St then has to snake around the existing tunnels to reach Court St station on the Fulton Line where as a tunnel off of the Montague provisions has a more space to run straight into Court St. So, as I see it, the Montague provisions offer an overall better connection but have a tricky construction job at Whitehall.

But you know, this is so far off in the future maybe we will have a new South Ferry building at that point and the whole issue will be moot.

Hey van

 

On 3/18/2021 at 9:56 PM, vanshnookenraggen said:

Once I get going I can't stop

I got to thinking if the last plan could be made better and I came up with this. Culver and Jamaica/Myrtle are the same as they are now and the  connects to the Montague Tunnel while the runs via a new tunnel to Fulton St. I have the :V: no longer branching in Brooklyn but instead has the option of terminating at Chambers St or continuing as the West End peak express. What I like about this plan is there are even fewer moving parts, less interlining AND now Brighton Beach Line riders have at least one place to now transfer to 2nd Ave where as before they couldn't. The trade off is that now Myrtle riders lose a 2nd Ave connection. However it might be possible to have a new mezzanine connection between Grand St and Bowery stations so that at least Jamaica Line riders could have a connection to 2nd Ave. Myrtle riders will have to have a 3 seat ride... or just take the L instead?

The reason for the switch, or the switch in the first place, is that the famous Atlantic Ave provisions south of Whitehall station in the Montague Tunnel are in a tricky location from a construction point of view.
 

This nifty schematic shows how the tunnels from Broadway and Broad St merge underwater. In the drawing to the right you can see the provisions in checked lines at the bottom left. The issue is that these provisions are sandwiched in between the two South Ferry Terminal buildings (old and new).

I bring this up because it creates expensive technical difficulties. Engineers today want to build tunnels as easy as possible. This is why the current "design" of Phase 4 of 2nd Ave has a tunnel up to 100' below lower Manhattan so to simply avoid all off this above. The issue is that these proposed DEEP stations end up costing $1b or so. The whole point of rerouting 2nd Ave down Nassau St is to avoid all of this cost. But doing this eats up all the space in the Montague Tunnel, space which will conflict with the . The nice thing is that you still don't immediately need a new tunnel. But when you do it gets tricky.

If you built the new tunnel off the Montague provisions you'd have to shut down Slip 3 at South Ferry and that miiiight be a problem. So the alternative is that a new tunnel connects to Broad St instead. As you can see there is nothing there so cordoning off the area for a cofferdam dam is simpler. But this forces all 2nd Ave trains to use Fulton St. Not the end of the world but having the  run down 4th Ave gives the borough better balance in terms of Manhattan service.  via 4th Ave allows transfers to every other downtown Brooklyn service ( - the  of course  ) where as the  via Fulton gives riders fewer options to transfer. An added bonus here is that you can build new switches at Grand St and give the B/D a redundant connection to Brooklyn, one which they lack now.

The reverse problem is true on the Brooklyn side: a tunnel off of Broad St then has to snake around the existing tunnels to reach Court St station on the Fulton Line where as a tunnel off of the Montague provisions has a more space to run straight into Court St. So, as I see it, the Montague provisions offer an overall better connection but have a tricky construction job at Whitehall.

But you know, this is so far off in the future maybe we will have a new South Ferry building at that point and the whole issue will be moot.

Vanshnookeraggen I like what your doing but you won’t actually need to build a new tunnel to Brooklyn for Fulton st connection How to do this. First connect 2nd Ave phase 4 to the montague st tunnel than relocate the transit museum somewhere else with the 2nd ave line build with a connection to the Fulton st line have the  train would than take over local service for the  train and run to Euclid Avenue and this frees up the train to be moved to the express tracks along side the  train this which would also trains to be extended to Lefferts blvd without creating YET ANOTHER interlocking issue that way all  train would can be diverted to the Rockways. Alternatively the  could be routed to bay ridge 95th st via 4th Ave local while the  train get rerouted to Euclid Avenue via Fulton st local. This plan gives 4th Ave Coney Island and southern Brooklyn riders better access to the east side to Manhattan.  what do you think of this plan. Note this plan is for the interline system, I have more proposals to include the 2nd ave line into a deinterline system. What proposal would you prefer. I prefer the first one since it would be smoother to put into effect. As bay ridge and 4th Ave line rider might lose access to Broadway line if the  train get rerouted to the Fulton st line and the deinterling plan to comes to effect. But then again customers could still use the  and/or  trains instead but that just me. But anyways what do you think 

 

On 3/18/2021 at 1:01 PM, vanshnookenraggen said:

I mean  on the Jamaica Line is still a good idea. But even with the capacity improvements you get with deinterlining and CBTC the Jamaica Line isn't going to be able to handle  and  trains; I think turning the J into basically a shuttle isn't the best plan even with a redesigned Essex St station. And since this plan would cut off all of the Jamaica/Myrtle Lines from a 2nd Ave transfer you'd really have to prove that such a switch would have overwhelming benefits. With this newer plan at least you've got direct east side service and transfers to 6th Ave service. 

Well I disagree with rerouting the B and D to Williamburg I don’t think it a good idea because Brooklyn riders would lose access to the 6th ave line and if reroutings are needed on 6th ave service the entire service would be screwed since at least the current lay out for rerouting allow for trains to go to Coney Island either way. Further more many riders would piss because they don’t want to lose 6th Ave service to Coney Island or lose access to lower Manhattan Nassau in Williamsburg. Not to mention that Jamaica line can’t handle 75 foot long train cars If necessary we should extend a 2nd ave line via a new tunnel to Williamburg or the Williamburg bridge so I perform this newer plan. I like the new plan.  Think we could include express tracks for W train service