Union Tpke

On 3/29/2020 at 7:32 PM, Jova42R said:

Yes, it'd be a tunnel under the LIE, a viaduct would recieve mass opposition

I fully agree! Maybe also extend it to 26th St (at the end of the tail tracks)?

If you extend it to 26th Street you will need to extend the tail tracks futher. This is what I call the 179th Street dilemma, which thankfully I have not had to explain in many a year.

On 3/30/2020 at 1:13 PM, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

I'm still under the notion that Phase 3 of the Second Avenue subway should not be built, Or else we're stuck with this:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YOMBdOm6Y_U4S047evR--fEtzjeiWte6

 

Don't build phase 3. Extend the Harlem Line downtown with stops at Union Square and Fulton Street, and in a later phase extend it to SI.

23 hours ago, RR503 said:

WTC  honestly...isn't that bad. It's a stub, but you could (esp. post-CBTC) probably get >>20tph out of it, if we use 8 Av  and SF as our reference points. 

The issue with interlining 36 St is twofold. The first problem is that it eliminates any incentive to stay on the express beyond Roosevelt --  riders can use the  and  riders can use the . The  worked largely by giving ridership beyond Roosevelt a one seat ride across the peak load points into the CBD (thus relieving the ) and picking up nontrivial LIC-6th Ave ridership that used to use the . Very, very few people through rode beyond Roosevelt when the express was an alt for their destination. 

Second problem is, of course, ops. I don't think I need to explain just how garbage 59 St is. Its peak throughput is about 43tph across two tracks. Imagine running it at 50-60tph. It's simply an operational non-starter. 

@RR503 Do you know if NYCT's advertising campaign to encourage people to use the  (I have brochures for this) in about 2002 had any tangible effect?

17 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

But then you’d be forcing anyone who wants the 6th Avenue Line to backtrack to the already overcrowded Roosevelt Ave stop. Even if Woodhaven is converted into an express station, which would relieve Roosevelt, those riders transferring at Woodhaven will be replaced by local riders who have to backtrack. Maybe not quite as many as those who currently transfer cross-platform from local to express at Roosevelt, but do we really need to force folks to backtrack? Now, if 36th St was designed to easily be converted into an express station (like Woodhaven), then this wouldn’t be an issue, but it wasn’t designed that way.

Can’t the 6th Avenue trains run local and the 8th Avenue trains express? But even then, if you want the 8th Avenue Line, you’d have to backtrack to Roosevelt to get it. Is that really worth doing? 

As for locals past Forest Hills, it seems like any time a local was extended past Forest Hills, it was met with low ridership and protests from the community. That’s why the  to 179 didn’t last long. And JC can only turn 12 tph, so you can’t even run every  train to JC, let alone running both the  and  there.

There is the transfer at 7th Avenue to the  which would become even more attractive with increased frequencies. there goes your backtracking problem.

Having the 6th Avenue run local would increase demand on 53rd Street even more as it would eliminate all incentives for riders to stay on the Queens Boulevard local (the ).

The only time the locals were extended past Forest Hills were the original EE from December 31, 1936 to December 15, 1940 during off-peak hours, the  from December 11, 1988 to September 30, 1990 at all times and then during rush hours to October 26, 1992, and the late night  from September 30, 1990 to August 30, 1997. There were only complaints with the . Remember that 77% of passengers benefitted from  express/  local to 179th. The change that cut back  service increased travel time along the  by 3.5 minutes.

With deinterlining, like on @RR503's second deinterlining map, you can have some Queens Boulevard express trains go to Jamaica Center (12 TPH), and have the rest go to 179th Street, with local stops covered by the .

37 minutes ago, Theli11 said:

Either that or a OOS transfer. Either or works

An OOS through Queens Plaza would not be heavily used, other than for tourists who get confused, as it is not a safe area to walk through, though it was much worse a decade ago.

47 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

But how feasible is a Queens Plaza/Queensboro Plaza Transfer?

 

Very feasible. They are close to each other and this has been studied a few times. They really need to get on it considering that land in the area is being developed like hot cakes.

51 minutes ago, Collin said:

The  is limited to about 18 tph even with CBTC because it has to share with the  on QB, so running the  express does nothing for it.

CBTC won't really increase capacity beyond actually getting the line to run 30 TPH. To get above that you need to deal with dwell times at Roosevelt, eliminate merges through deinterlining, have better terminal dispatching and more precise timetables with five second resolution vs. 30 seconds (If they try to run 31 or 32 TPH, there will be weird 90 second gaps in the schedule, etc.).

Running the  express eliminates merges at 50th and Canal, reducing opportunities for delays, and allows you to run anywhere from 20 to 30 TPH on Queens Boulevard local.

3 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

@Collin if you’re concerned about 50th Street losing upper level Local service, then what do you think of the idea of extending its platforms, giving it a layout similar to Nostrand Avenue?

No need to spend capital $ on that. 42nd and 59th are close by. As is 7/53.

Just now, Trainmaster5 said:

Work train in Corona yard was cancelled so I was used until the person assigned by the crew office arrived from the Grand Central Shuttle dispatcher’s office. In my whole RTO career I have made 5 round trips total on the  up front and in the middle and even less on the  and the  lines. I was a Lenox guy,  ,  or  line while the  and  were under the Eastern section, pick wise and the  was Queens. Work train, Transfers, and Utility titles meant that I could traverse all that territory as well as the other divisions. I knew  BMT Southern people who were in East New York yard fewer times than I was. Back then it all depended on “ the needs of the service “ and the Desk Trainmasters who decided that myself and a few others in my position were qualified in the other division without ever having been broken in on those lines. Sorry for the long reply but you brought back some memories of a different era in RTO. Carry on.

I appreciate your long reply, which is why I asked you. Which line did you like the most?

11 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

It depended on location IIRC. VC, New Lots, Dyre Shuttle ( SMEE) , were cut 5+5 in the station. I went to Main St once in the 80’s and they were running 5 and 6 car trains late night with temporary wooden platforms. The conductor was an old timer and didn’t mind where I stopped because I didn’t know where the stop marker signs were anyway. I made one round trip and never went back to the  again. I’m guessing that the B division had their own routine. Just my memories. Carry on.

Why were you on the  that one time?

5 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

The local running past Forest Hills is a non-starter; that was already tried in the '90s and was massively unpopular because of how slow it was. All those riders ended up changing for express trains anyways.

More riders benefitted from the change than were hurt by it, but the squeaky wheel gets the oil. Also, if it gets rid of the Forest Hills conga line, it would help even more people.

14 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

Oh there definitely was a time with different length consists based on the time of day, but--and others will know this better than I do--I think that was mainly a practice that lasted into the 70s or so. I know the  was running half-length overnight through the 70s, probably the same on a number of other lines. And even more extreme would have been the BMT running different length consists for midday, rush hour, and overnight way back in the early days. The yellow signs from the 80s though are mainly about boarding, in terms of safety on the platform.

Correct. The folks at subchat, like Randyo, would know better, and there have been many discussions on train lengths over the years.

Look at the car lengths in this old   employee timetable from 1970:

Division "B" - File No. RR-1001 Daily/Sunday Time Table In Effect "RR" Fourth Avenue Line by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

14 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

By the way, those Astor signs have been covered up completely, and a lot of stations are having those signs removed. I forget the exact article, but there's a clipping about the year those signs first showed up. I believe they were installed from 1982-1987. Technically, the distinction is partly in the phrasing. A lot of those signs, like the one at Astor, said "Off Hours Boarding Area," since by the time they were installed it wasn't always about shorter trains, but more about keeping a well-lit section of the station within view of the token clerk. Then you had a separate variety (which, by the font, are probably newer, from 1988 or so) that said "During off-hours trains stop here." That was for shorter overnight consists, but I think that was a lot less common. Good question on which part of the train lined up.

I heard about the 52nd St. hit. I'd be curious to see, except I'm not getting on a train for no good reason. I do think that a version of this is gonna happen – there's nobody out there.

The Off-Hours Waiting Area signs were part of a safety program in the mid-1980s. In many stations, these are in the mezzanines, but in others they are near the conductor's position. I can share more on that later. 

The During off-hours train stop here signs got put in c. 1990-1991 as train lengths were reduced during off-hours due to budget cuts.

17 hours ago, Deucey said:

So occasionally - like at Astor Place, you see yellow signs saying something like “Off-Peak trains stop here”.

After platform lengthening finished, were train lengths not always 10 cars (or 8 for 75 footers) - excluding shuttles and the 9 car  train? And at that sign, what stopped there - the operators cab, the conductor’s cab, or was that where the last car of the train platformed?

In 1991, to cut costs the MTA started bringing back short trains. I have a few brochures on this that I can post that a lot of you will find interesting. They took down the yellow signs at most stations, but some, like 75th Avenue, still have them.

17 hours ago, Deucey said:

So occasionally - like at Astor Place, you see yellow signs saying something like “Off-Peak trains stop here”.

After platform lengthening finished, were train lengths not always 10 cars (or 8 for 75 footers) - excluding shuttles and the 9 car  train? And at that sign, what stopped there - the operators cab, the conductor’s cab, or was that where the last car of the train platformed?

All  platforms except 145th Street, which could only fit 6.5 cars, were 10-cars long. There used to be 9-car signs in stations. Some still have them.

At that sign, I believe that is where the T/O stopped.

On 3/29/2020 at 2:49 AM, bobtehpanda said:

WTC is a two track platform with no tail tracks. It currently struggles with the but that's partially because of the nasty Canal St merge. You'd have to get the out of the way to even get close to 18.

To put this in perspective, New South Ferry is also a two-track station with no tail tracks, and IIRC it was stated to have a capacity of 24TPH.

Just swap the  and the , with the  running local via CPW, and the  running express via CPW and 8th Avenue and you get rid of the merges at (2x) Canal Street, 50th Street, and (2x) 59th Street. Problem solved. The  should be able to handle 8th Avenue local by itself, as frequency would increase on the express with the combined . This is one of the easiest deinterlining options, along with a  swap in Brooklyn, and an  swap for 53rd Street/63rd Street.

On 3/29/2020 at 3:04 AM, bobtehpanda said:

It's a nonstarter because the only transfer station is Roosevelt. Even today Roosevelt is already at peak standing capacity; you can't increase transfer volumes during the rush without having to start resorting to London Underground-style closing of exits and putting people in pens. Roosevelt's layout is particularly bad for wrong-direction platform changes.

The definitely needs to go. But honestly, if 8th Av local and expresses are separated, the interlining would be between two track pairs, and that is honestly not the end of the world.

While I would absolutely hate it considering I would lose my 50 MPH express run, converting Woodhaven Boulevard to an express station is the only real solution to reduce dwells at Roosevelt Avenue, which functions as the westernmost transfer point between express and local trains, as an important transfer to the , and as an important bus connection.

13 hours ago, Collin said:

I think the  should have infill stations added at 10th Avenue as was originally planned, and at 2nd Avenue as part of Phase 3.  That would eliminate the need build an extremely long underground passage to Grand Central that customers won't like anyways.  The proposed transfer would be longer than going between Times Square and Port Authority Bus Terminal.  This would also allow the  to function better as a crosstown line.

I agree with 10th Avenue. You do realize that there is an exit to 3rd Avenue at the Grand Central stop on the ? Also, the tunnel goes into a steep downgrade past Third Avenue, so you cannot build a station there.

On 3/27/2020 at 8:21 PM, bobtehpanda said:

On the contrary, I don't think it works very well at all. The is almost always delayed, the merges at 36th and 75th can cause issues as well. The important thing about evicting service, is that it allows you to dedicate 100% of 60th St to Astoria (either reconfigured, or built with an alternate extension path like LGA that could provide a second outlet to terminate trains) so the definitely needs to go.

I am of mixed opinion about the 53rd/63rd deinterlining with QBL. In my opinion, terminating local trains at Forest Hills is important because most eastern and SE Queens bus riders are also slogging it on the bus after, so slowing them down further is going to inconvenience many. And I don't really see why one couldn't run a local and an express each from both 53rd and 63rd; it'd certainly reduce transferring volumes at Roosevelt to do so. 

Again, having so many trains merge at 36th Street is a recipe for disaster. By having all expresses to 63rd and all locals to 53rd you will significantly increase capacity by balancing ridership loads. Riders who want the express get the less attractive 63rd Street corridor, while those who want the local get the more attractive 53rd Street corridor.

http://www.mta.info/status/subway/123/26424554

Quote

Multiple sources told THE CITY that authorities discovered a charred shopping cart with a possible accelerant inside the second car of a northbound No. 2 train that filled with smoke and flames as it pulled into the Central Park North-110th Street station at 3:14 a.m — around the same time as three other fires in and around the subway system.

https://thecity.nyc/2020/03/motormans-death-in-subway-fire-adds-to-transit-worker-fears.html

It seems like it has been confirmed to be a T/O.

1 minute ago, Enjineer said:

Was just talking about this with some friends. They may have not known anyone had died at that point, and also, they're firefighters. They're probably proud of their own work and this is how they're documenting it. I think assuming whoever posted the photo originally found out the T/O died, it would be best to take that photo down, though. 

Even so. If they didn't know that the T/O was dead, there was still work to be done, namely finding the man, who still could have been saved. That was disgusting.

This is atrocious.

2 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

The responses kinda remind me of this video...

 

 

The responses to this video are even scarier: