B35 via Church

I didn't forget your edit here :tup: Commenting on the idea.... By itself, your B64 idea is plausible. Thing is, Bath av doesn't need two bus routes though.... Reverting the B64 is basically what's being (and what's been) suggested in the transit community.... but I'm not so sure the B64 even needs to go down to shore road.... Not saying you're suggesting this, but I have heard some folks on the forums bring up truncating the B16 to 86th/4th & extending the B64 to shore (in place of the 16)...... That pretty much comes down to demand; do those folks (shore rd) want the areas (served by the) 16 or the 64...

What you put an end to, was the sanity in this thread..... 1st paragraph is a strawman argument; no one's arguing that the B64 "saved" 86th st... It's silly to have brought that up, to then point out the obvious of it previously having served the 86th/4th area, as a counter-argument..... As for 95th st, that won't fly... those patrons (Bath Beach) were defiant in stating that they want 86th st. iono, I don't see the advantage of doing that.... may as well leave the B9 alone in Midwood... Which was the main artery the route served..... What is the problem? It aint have to have spent "a significant amount of time" on 86th st, for it to have served the main artery that is 86th st (which resulted from the good ridership it used to have)... There was nothing wrong with that portion of his statement.... This aint makin no sense...... Lay it out on the line, fam.... What are you arguing against in this particular discussion, regarding the B64?? I can't figure out what he's debating either.....

Don't be so hard on yourself !!

For starters, there's no real major ridership generator....

yeah... um, I'm gonna have to disagree with the notion that the MTA would keep a route around simply because it is long..... The longer the route, the more money the MTA saves in discarding it if it's underperforming.... Now if it's a long route that brings in 4,5,6+ million riders a year, then they'll keep it around & build on it (see M5)...

I should hope so.... 1) lol... yeh... besides, I don't like quoting images.... my posts are long enough... 2 & 3) Right, but wouldn't the simplest option be to have the B64 kept around (as far as ideas are concerned), and then try to build/enhance that route from there.... instead of thinking up a new route to serve bath av b/c of what the MTA plans on doing with it (the 64).... That's like having your house imploded & building it back up from scratch because you saw a couple mice there.... 4) I can live with that..... Curious though.... what part are you disagreeing with?

yup, that's true... I'll add another one (scenario). Instead of taking the N to the R & backtracking to 86th st, the B64 was right there to take you to 86th st.... I used to hate taking 3 trains (Q to the N to the R) to get to the S79..... I mean, yeah I could have taken the B35 to the 16, or take the 2 to atlantic for the R, but both of those options are very time consuming..... Taking the 3 trains was just a hassle..... Taking the Q to the B64 though :tup: you can't be serious.... have you taken the prior B64 routing & saw the stable riderbase (which consisted of crowds I might add)... have you taken the current B64 & saw ridership wane like nobody's business... lol.... There's nothing wrong with the B1. But I will say the B64 was used as a sacrificial lamb to boost the prevalence of that route.... There is history involved here.... for the longest, there'd been talks about creating a "B86" (an 86th st route).... The current B1 is an embodiment of that.... Thank you. Which isn't acceptable..... Which is why we're speaking out against what the MTA isn't "big on"....

I find it humorous that you are extending full-fledged routes to places to "help a few people", but that's neither here nor there..... Anyway, it aint about what I'm "so worried" about, these are your ideas dude..... You sat up there & said you wouldn't mind my opinion, so I'm giving my commentary.... as far as prospect park being the best terminal or whatever.... there has to be a rhyme or reason as to where you terminate a bus route..... The B16 ends over there @ Prospect Park subway large in part b/c it's the only route in SW Brooklyn that pans to that general part of the borough.... You got the B43 coming from north brooklyn.... would've had the 48 too, but that's a separate issue..... as far as where to send a 13th/14th av route.... I've gotten into a few debates w/ others about that over the years.... I've argued against VA hospital, against coney island (via cropsey), against stopping right dead on 86th st, and yes, even against staten island.... Now I can add coney island (via bath av) to the list.... finally, you say you can detach the 64 from the 10, but that'd make the 64 redundant w/ the 10 & the 33 there..... My retort to that, simply is... why do/did you have the 10 covering bath av in the first place..... I mean, I'm assuming you knew that bath beach riders wanted 86th st.... What the MTA did to the 64 was detrimental...... I'm trying to see what your thought process is in all this, or if you're simply thinking up these routes w/o no real thought or requisite to it.....

The explanation does no such thing.... You want to straighten the B16 along Ft. Hamilton pkwy. & you want the "B10" to take its place along 13th/14th avs.... got all that.... Not implicating they (borough park riders) should be left with nothing.... If you're gonna take on the "some might" ideology, then you may as well send every route everywhere... Back to this B10 thing.... What you are failing to realize is that Bath Beach patrons want 86th st (which was revoked by the MTA from those folks)... not Lefferts Gardens & not Borough Park... Your B10/64 combination doesn't address that.... To your credit, you are addressing bus service issues along 13th/14th av & the portion of the B64 that was revoked b/w UP depot & Mermaid bus loop..... Your B10 serving areas northeast of 13th/14th though (however you plan on sending it to prospect park from borough park, it really doesn't matter).... Why, because the B16 already serves prospect park... I'm still not understanding why you think two more routes from SW Brooklyn should head up to prospect park anyway.... You haven't made that clear. Your B10 routing north of 86th st does B64 riders no justice... hell, it's not much different than the current situation those riders have to face.... only difference is the MTA has the B64 turning west onto Bay Ridge av, and you have it continuing northward to prospect park....

(parts in red, taken from another post of yours) B10: I always felt the B64 should be its own route; I wouldn't combine it with anything.... BrooklynBus feels/felt it should be combined w/ the B70... Aside from the above, I'll say this - the riders that take the B16 in borough park (13th/14th av's), generally travel within borough park.... so you don't really need the B16 (and your B10) going to Prospect park; Borough Park patrons aren't heading to lefferts Gdns.... So having your B10 do that as a compromise is all for naught..... Furthermore, the (real) B64 panning up 13th like it does now, is the reason that route's less useful as it is.... How can I say this - It looks like you're extending the 64 northward because you moved the 16 off 13th/14th..... Problem with that is, the demand is higher for/towards Bay ridge than it is for/towards CI.... Connecting the aforementioned two areas (as terminals) should be done with the B64; either with reverting it back along 86th st or having it serve VA hosp/ft hamilton area, en route to 86th st subway..... So I'm basically questioning demand with your B10... B19: another prospect park route? Anyway, this route is simply too circuitous/indirect for no real reason.... Addressing a service gap is more than just sending some route anywhere... B33: Not a bad idea, but I would send such a route to CI Hospital (and have it do that exact same thing (that loop checkmate & via's talkin about) the current B4 does, instead of the B4 doing it) instead of sheepshead bay.... my thinking is: B4: parallels the B1 along 86th st, via av. z to sheepshead bay a B5: runs along bay ridge pkwy a B33: runs b/w bay ridge (up in the 60's, instead of 86th st) & CI hospital... hmm, not a bad idea at all..... 1) I don't try to get people to change their opinion.... 2) lol.... No problem.... It happens. I'm not sure if this is still the case, but the last dropoff stop is at CI avenue.... the actual terminal (and first pickup stop, although hardly anyone waits along the south side of the hosp.) is over there on the corner of voorhies/ocean pkwy (on voorhies)..... as far as terminating buses on that corner of CI/Av Z.... outside of terminal space, that school on that corner would throw a fit.... that's another reason why I think they didn't make that a terminal/layover spot....

um, that was checkmate's post, not mine.....

This whole shutting down bit.... I still don't know why you're instilling that point to me though; that is more via's argument.... I understand some mode of public transportation (buses, in this case) aren't sent to some destination to alleviate the possible shutting down of businesses.... it's simply to get them to that destination.... All I questioned/disputed/commented on, was your notion of the main purpose of running buses.... It had nothing to do with the B4..... That B4 side discussion is between you two; I been said all I had to about that whole emmons/neptune thing..... aight... no prollem bro :tup: will comment on those ideas of yours, in a few.

Neither. I asked you to post the terminals for those ideas, and you did just that.... that's the only reason why I said "cool"..... I was fin to map out those routings in my head & formulate an opinion, but since you came w/ that little 'tude in that last post (at least that's how it came off to me anyway), I didn't bother..... lol.... If you know about that, then why are you trying to rationalize a "false" argument The comment I replied to of yours about the main purpose being the riders, was a half-truth..... In this reply of yours now, the part in bold is reinforcing what I said regarding the purpose of public transportation.... That last segment of the reply (which I'm not sure why you even brought up), you might wanna re-think that.... In sayin that, you are assuming there aren't people from other areas in mass numbers that are trying to get to some big enough destination you speak of - that don't drive... It's almost like you're trying to undermine how important public (surface) transportation can be.....

just came from Queens myself.... rode the Q44 from jamaica to flushing.... during the ride, I was wondering which of the two routes (Q17, Q44) has the higher propensity to carry riders from jamaica to flushing.... I always tend to take the 44 over the 17.... even though the routing b/w the 2 points is longer, it (the 44) feels like the quicker ride (17 LTD, inclusive).... stopped at popeyes & in the process, a b/o was waitin for his food..... funny thing was, it was the same operator of the Q50 I boarded.... young middle eastern guy.... anyway, I took the 50 to co-op.... tried to catch the bx38, but after 15 mins.... nothing, so I just hopped on the bx30 and took that to the D.... along the ride on the bx30, we get to gun hill/white plains road.... a SWARM of ppl. waiting for the Bx41.... that bus left crushloaded (for those that don't know, the 41 is an artic. route).... (seems like more ppl. are waiting at that stop now, than there ever was, when the 39 terminated there) speaking of which, a NB bx39 passed in the process.... there was literally NOBODY on that bus ! I was not expecting that at all....

whoa whoa whoa..... B70: Yeah, and neither did anyone else, dude... I was just sayin that's what I did on it (albeit, not for the same reason).... regardless, wasn't accusing you of anything.... smh.... B4: Good for you.... B8: There is no justifiable reason to send the B8 to Shore Road..... None. How is it not necessary? For starters.... that area b/w shore road & 95th st , the 63 is more than sufficient.... The reason the (real) 70 serves that area in question was a bit of a compromise for the loss of the B37.... it comes up from shore road to continue serving VA Hospital.... so it just so happens to be a secondary measure for those folks down there by shore road, etc to get to the ..... Whereas you want to truncate the 70 for the purpose of extending the 8 (of all routes) to shore road..... Furthest it (the 8) should go, if anywhere, was back to it's prior terminal @ 95th st subway.... B10/19/33/64: cool....

don't know why I didn't see this post initially..... B1: yup... B4: yup, but that's not all that needs to be done... B8: redundant/not necessary... B16: I wouldn't exactly do it that way, but ok, for the most part.... B33: how would it get to av. X from bay ridge av ? B70: that's exactly what I did w/ it on my map ! * Your whole B10/B19/64 thing confuses me.... mind posting the terminals for both routes ? B16: Nothing... except there is a need for service along Ft. Hamilton Pkwy. where there is none.... I mean, the B16 basically avoids Maimonides..... Not just for the hospital - but regardless, the simplest solution is to "straighten" out the B16 along ft. hamilton pkwy..... B70: if you have a route coming up from VA hospital to Bay ridge, there's no need for another route going down to the hospital from bay ridge...... Furthermore, Sunset Park riders aren't the ones taking the 70 to the hospital (for the most part)... and the route would still serve the areas of Bay Ridge & Sunset Park w/ what he's suggesting.... Not entirely true, fam..... When it really boils down to it, it really is a chicken & egg argument.... which VG8 perfectly illustrated below: "Second of all, the main purpose of running the buses is to serve the riders, which is who??? THE COMMUNITY, which includes the businesses." ....But yeah, the basic purpose of public transportation is to serve the riding public between some two points (which is what transport is) - regardless of whatever mode.... If people had nowhere to go, you eliminate one half of the equation..... You're big on logic... What happens during a logical conjunction when either proposition is false.....

....which is where the demand is anyway (bensonhurst, included). Having the route go down that stretch of Neptune that it did, hardly did anyone justice..... b/w CI Hospital & shore blvd, sure you'd see ppl waiting for the sheepshead bound B4 - but these folks would be those coming off 68's.... Not having the route serve neptune anymore wasn't the problem, as much as it was the fact that it no longer served sheepshead bay (all times)..... Most the B4 usage b/w CI hosp. & shore blvd were of students - not grady or lincoln kids, but by that school over there across the street from the BM3 terminal, which is more sheepshead bay than it is brighton...... Had the route continued to serve sheepshead all times, I don't think you would have heard a peep out of brighton riders about some neptune avenue service.... I remember you sayin you used to live out there, so you know how minimal the demand for bus service was.... at the time I attended Grady, going & coming, I would notice the nuances of the B4 along neptune.... Never understood why the route was hardly utilized, until I came to some realizations.... It was all about the brighton (line), the WB B1 (heading towards CI hosp, etc), and the NB B68 (heading towards kings hwy, etc.)..... The B4 was an afterthought; large in part b/c the service was shit (for lack of a better term)..... I have to concur with you.... with the route having the service that it did, there was no reason to have continued service along neptune... It's a similar situation w/ the B7 up here - some routes simply don't serve people's needs - this is part of what's wrong w/ the network now; antiquated routings & the refusal of "modernizing" our routes....

1] for the most part, yup... it's basically the B4 route b/w narrows av & (stillwell/25th).... then 25th av from stillwell to cropsey.... then the (prior) B82 routing from cropsey/25th to surf/stillwell..... 2] I think I see what you're gettin at.... Thanks for the suggestion. at the time, I wadn't thinkin about the connectivity b/w my b23 & the SI routes.... my major concern was, where should I put that route down in bay ridge (b/c really, outside of the B16, I didn't want any other route panning west past 4th av)... having the 23 do what you suggest would be an alternative to what the B8 (used to) do down there along 92nd st, as far as xferring b/w the SI routes goes.... but on the flipside, I don't want the 23 & the 8 (and the 64) serving the hospital; I'm not sure if that little pickup/dropoff area inside the hospital can handle all those buses.... 1] Yup, my "B5" serves that stint you're asking about..... But it's not a renamed B64; I have both of those routes going to CI (B5 via cropsey, B64 via bath & stillwell [no harway av]) 2] Well the B6 ends by Ulmer park, but I still get your point.... ...as far as extending a "B50" to gateway, sure, that could work too bro.... but I don't think both the routes that serve starrett need to head out to gateway.... I feel the 83 is all is necessary for that purpose, while leaving the "50" to remain ending at penn/seaview.....

- To answer the question (bay ridge pkwy I'm assuming you mean), A "B5" I have going from narrows rd to surf/stillwell... bay ridge avenue, I have the B2 extension taking that, en route to xaverian.... - as far as the B2/31/100, I have the 100 going down to the shopping center (ceasars bay) via kings hwy.... the 82 discontinued.... and the old B50 revived w/ a slight modification.... I'd rather have the B2 run weekends (and extended elsewhere) than extending a route whose main purpose is to serve one set of riders.... That increase in ridership you're talking about, I'd rather give to the 2 instead of the 31.... let the 31 remain serving its current purpose.... - I thought about the whole B8 thing; I just left it as ending at the hospital.... but IRL, if they did extend it back to 95th, I'd have no problem w/ it whatsoever..... - Yeah, that's exactly why I didn't send it (the 23) to 86th/4th.... terminal space (same reason why the Q58 terminates where it does in flushing).... Anyway, I have the B1, 4, 64, along w/ the SI routes ending at 86th/4th....

You don't have to agree, but No one really rides it past that point.... They should have left B16's ending at Parkside.... Those residents of those apartments along ocean b/w parkside & lincoln walk to the closest subway anyway In all honesty, I wasn't even referencing your post... during the weekday: B4: peak headways, 10 mins.... off peak headways, remains the same B16: same headways as current service B23: peak headways, 15 mins... off peak headways, 15-20 mins....

since the site's been down, I've been working on my map.... all I basically gotta do is add text.... anyway, I have the: - B1 remaining the same - B4 running from knapp/voorhies to 86th/4th (via av z, via 86th) - B64 running from mermaid bus loop to 86th/4th (via bath av, via VA hospital) - B31 remaining the same - B2 extended to Xaverian HS (via av P) - B16 altered to serve ft. hamilton pkwy where it currently doesn't, also cut back to parkside - and the "B23" running from ft hamilton pkwy/86th st to Rockaway Pkwy (via 13th/14th av's, via church av , via cortelyou...) there's other ideas I have, but I'll just list the ones relevant/related to your reply here.... ----------------------------- - As for a B36 LTD, nah, no dice.... south BK needs all the local service it can get right now; that's one of the last routes that needs to be skipping stops anywhere along its route.... - As for B64 making trips to CI during rush hour.... Well, I think that route should be reverted to serving mermaid loop in its totality.... the route as is, is just about useless....

lol @ 2 old ladies gettin into a shoving match upon boarding the B68... happened at the mermaid bus loop/terminal... some homeless guy tried to intervene, but this one dude across the street (by the mcdonalds) yells out "you in my shot", as he started coming closer & closer.... of all the things to want to record (and most likely put up on the internet)..... I was waiting for the B82 at the time (JUST as I got there, one had pulled out)... after having came from nathan's, after having ridden the x28 & walking.... While waiting, I was staring at how crammed those B74's were (as I always tend to) - every last one of them (3 total) left packed to the gills.... guess ppl. are really gettin fed up w/ the wait for the B36 out there.....

That still goes on w/ the bergen beach 41's... smh...

Sure, no prollem :tup: I'll give you props as well for taking the criticism w/ such openness; a rarity in this community.....

I think anyone that would subject themselves to such a route should bring a pillow ! having anything run on bowery & across the manhattan bridge to flatbush/4th is torturous enough during rush hour..... then you wanna run it on 4th all the way to 86th st.... and then across the heart of commercial 86th st.... wow.... Seriously, that won't be much of an express route..... It almost looks like you chose the slowest routing possible on purpose....