Q43 Floral Park

1. More people driving luxury cars as opposed to where? Even if its a symbol of status, "showing off" most certainly isn't the primary reason for purchase. The fact remains that historically you had to be able to afford to live over there because of bad public transportation regardless of your country of origin/racial demographic that = having a car. If you ever have time check out the Routes Not Taken, there's a whole chapter that discusses this. I'd be interested in reading that thesis because I largely disagree, it's a lot easier to run general errands/commute in the NW Bronx vs. NE Bronx. I'm sure people are driving to Boston/Eastchester but there's nothing stopping the BxM10 from the going north to say Laconia/233 or Boston/Dyre. You could probably add SX runs that cut to the Bruckner either at Pelham Pkwy or Gun Hill/ start runs at those points so the Morris Park riders have a better chance at a seat and the northern riders get a faster ride. 2/3. Or they take the Bx9 which runs way too frequently up there. Like I said if you're at CB meetings and there's probably someone there you could encourage to use the BxM3 if you're actually concerned about it being in danger. It might require putting aside your personal opinions but it would be worth it. Going back to proposals: Is there a way to rectify Morris Park being a 3 seat ride to Bay Plaza without a new route? Prior to them creating the Bx24 I would have said send the Bx21 to Pelham Bay instead of the Square but I know that'd be way too much service on Westchester now.

1. I'd say that's an odd conclusion to draw... It implies a narrative of "keeping up with the Joneses" while largely ignoring how stagnant public transportation reform has been in the area historically... The fact is even after annexation, the to Dyre had an extra fare like the to the Rockaways for no reason. Unlike the Rockaways, most people needed a bus to get to the train and there were no transfers. That reasonably stifled growth in the area/decreased reliance on public transportation. You can look at the old maps in this thread and see how disjointed bus service was pre-90s http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/41993-bronx-bus-maps-1970s-late-1989/. Even more recently, look at how long it took them get around to combining the Bx16 and sending the Bx31 to Woodlawn. They still don't even have an express bus to Eastchester despite the being an asterisk most of the time. 2. I know, it was laughable at best because the has been out most nights/weekends. I always find it funny that they took the time to carve out Van Cortlandt Village and no one uses the name. Tell MTA that... the BxM3 schedule implies it serves Riverdale and Kingsbridge proper. The 2 map also shows Kingsbridge whereas the 1/18 say Marble Hill. It's debatable which of the three is really right. 3. When I say your neighbors, I mean in the sense of people you might know in Riverdale that live closer to Broadway (either from CB/local meetings or just from passing conversations). I don't think the Yonkers stops outpace the Riverdale ones by much in regards to ridership. You're entitled to that preference but lol I love the "feel", it's not as stuffy as other routes but has it's moments.

Pretty much but I think it would have to use Hammersley-Grace-Givan-Baychester (N/B? E/B? idk) because Baychester's one way for 2 blocks IIRC. You loop it via Bronx Blvd/BPE on both ends to avoid having buses have their first stop on WPR blocking up traffic like the Bx8 does. The only thing the Bx8 is good at up there, is getting me to my favorite West Indian restaurant at the terminal. Other than that it's route and service levels don't encourage people to wait to take it to the train. From my experiences the bulk of ridership is mid route which really screws with adding more service. It not serving 222 St in both directions just highlights that street as an untapped W/E corridor. You must have missed the article where they said Kingsbridge is the new "IT" neighborhood in the city . I slightly disagree, it running to Getty Sq cuts down on it's deadhead time and I've spoken with people who use it up there and then x-fer to go further north. The Sedgwick ridership has always been the primary market (because it's more isolated than Broadway) and cutting it back to 261 would force them to redo the entire AM service pattern. I wouldn't say it's in serious danger but I agree it's being ignored and I'm working on that. Tell your neighbors to try the AM SX runs, they make good time and aren't crowded.

Let me start off by saying that I don't see the need for anything else to terminate in Bay Plaza/ Co-op City at this point.... There isn't a portion of the N/E Bronx that can't access it either with a direct route or 1 transfer besides Morris Park Av. I mentioned this a while back in the thread but E 222 St and Burke are the only N/E Bronx main streets with no service and you can run a route that serves both and encourages ridership at Baychester without entering Co-op or Mount Vernon (especially not via WPR crawling behind Bx39s/BxM11s). I actually agree with VG8 here, let Bee Line extend one of their routes. So... you want to a) completely cut Nereid off from the Shopping Plaza on Pelham Line and the connection Dyre for when WPR fouls up b) duplicate Bx31 service along E 233 Street c) cut service levels on Nereid (Bx16 is more frequent than the Bx34) d) cut service off Webster Av (because your rerouted 34 can't serve Katonah, Webster and Nereid) e) add a Baychester Av route (thats really just siphoning Bx30 riders from Sec4/Bay Plaza) just because the Bx16 "meanders" around Mundy? Sorry, the decision to combine the 16 branches was the best thing to happen up there. It actually helps prevent bus bunching. Yes because it did that when it was a Liberty Lines route and I cant think of a single good reason for cutting it back to 261/Bway.

I'm not going to say that Yonkers couldn't use the service but I'm kind of against this because the Bx9 doesn't even properly serve the areas its supposed to post-PM rush hours. I also think it would require an extra bus and change in headways to compensate for the extra run time. The pattern BM5 gave of having a PM Sec 3-2-1 SX BxM7 and a PM Sec 5-4 BxM7 is a lot less confusing than the current AM setup plus the lines would be less brutal. I'd probably go with the SX serving Sec 3-2-1 and the other serving Sec 5-4-3. Any bus serving Sec 4-5 is going to have to pass Sec 3 to get back to ECH. I'm pretty sure if you told someone in Dreiser they wouldn't have to take a scenic tour of the whole complex to get home they'd be more enticed to take it. The Bruckner can be a mess but the BxM10 is the only route not near a highway/bypass road. It hits local streets well before the BxM7 and Morris Park Av is just light after light (Eastchester Rd isn't as bad). Even still, I've thought it should be extended to 233 St though ...

I know the was running on the but this doesn't really confirm if its suspended along with the . Also is there a reason the couldn't run express on the between W 4-34 St?

I can't really speak for other boroughs but that's a Bronx wide issue. I never understood why the local bus schedules generally aren't set to connect with trains after 9 pm/why they don't wait at stations (similar to what MBTA does). As much as I'd love it if the last run on my express bus was later than 12:05/12:15, when you live in an isolated area and make a conscious decision to stay out later it means less commuting options. In the interest being open-minded, how many people would need to be on a late night express run for it to be cost-effective? I could be wrong but I feel like that section of the Bronx (sans Co-op) relies more on public transportation peak, and more on cars off peak versus it being a safety issue. I can see the point in having a 4:30 BxM7 run to offset the DH, but if you want to snag as many as riders as possible just switch the designation at PBP and have it run the full BxM8 route (its only going to add 2-3 minutes tops via Crosby). I thought the QM23 made all the QM15 stops until Woodhaven/Jamaica then just turned and went to 102 St (which seemed like the most random terminal ever). I always assumed the BM5 didn't stop in Queens prior to MTA because it would have been a conflict of interests between Command and Green Lines.

IIRC the BxM10 hasn't served Parkchester on Sundays in years... I've used all the Bronx express routes and as much as I love taking the bus, I don't see the need for 24/7 on any of them in any form. With the BxM7, I don't know if you have been in Co-op City after 12am but its dead (like North Riverdale dead). Northbound you might have some ridership but S/B I just don't see it. The late night Bx28 actually does a decent job of getting people around up there (I'd honestly extend it to PBP via the Bx29 because the is actually the most reliable train connection for them). I'm going to disagree and say that's exactly why a combo BxM7/8 wouldn't work. You have bus service to the at the main BxM8 stops. Anyone using Huntington Av or Baisley Av is walking distance to the Bx40 to the @ the Square. Buhre Av is walking distance for the Jarvis Av stops. The Bx40 also serves most of the BxM9 stops and the reason the other side of the Bruckner (Throggs Neck/Edgewater Park/CC/ Locust Point) has no late night local service is because they really aren't traveling at that time. I've been the only person on that last Bx8 out of LP until Crosby a few times. Idk if any of those routes you mentioned were actually SXs besides the BxM4B one and that failed because there isn't a single decent ridership along 233 or Katonah. BxM7A=Bxm8; the BxM7B went to CI.

Weekends only IIRC Agreed

20 mins on a good day to 96/Bway which isn't anywhere near the East Side CBD.... I think I've said this before but if the M98 could serve Inwood and Ft Washington Ave it would. a M98 variant (M99?) to B'way-220 could be a way of getting the BxM1 out of Inwood but if said M99 stayed on the HRD to Dyckman, I'm not sure if it would generate enough ridership in Inwood to warrant it. If it branched off @ 179/Bway, it would have to be LTD up B'way and that'd still be a slow-indirect ride during rush hours. The BxM1 via Inwood is easier, it just sucks they have to pay that much to stay in the same borough. I imagine you're right but I wonder where they park and ride from? Not much parking around the first 2 stops It wouldn't serve Lehman College directly and that block is long. Taking it off 205/Paul > Taking it off BPB.

I have a friend who takes the Bxm8 daily and our conversations have led me to believe the opposite. That being said I agree that no stops should be skipped. On the City Island end, its a given there isn't/wasn't enough ridership to sustain a standalone express route but something about the BxM8 runs seems off.... it's the only express route with an extension and it's just 2 runs (even the QM3 has 3 runs). Did they make the assumption CI residents prefer to work earlier hours because of the distance to the CBD (similar to SI) ? IMO, 5:18PM is kinda early for a last PM run to depart and be expected to net the max amount of workers/riders. A 4th BxM6 stop could be added at Castle Hill/Metro but not sure how turning it around would work.

I think MTA needs to look at extending the Bx12 SBS Westbound hours until 11pm... Caught a local run at PBP around 1030 and it had to leave people at every stop through University Av. Also more short turns on the Bx3/36 at Washington Bridge... there was a 25 minute gap in service on both routes early. I always wondered if a stop on 14 St would be doable... I enjoy walking a great deal but if I hypothetically lived east of Fieldston and north of 242, starting my morning with a 10-15 min walk up hilly terrain to HHE is the last thing I'd be doing. If I wanted Lex or 7th Av sure I'd see a reason to go up there but we were comparing the Bxm3 Sx vs. Bxm18 to 5 Av. So I'd come out the house and go to Bway knowing the BxM3 SX, will be on time and empty to the point where I can take up 2 seats rather than walk/drive, wait in line and probably have to share a seat on the BxM18.

In regards to the period before the service was implemented. We can't really say for sure if it did shift ridership. That being said I don't see how the time spent commuting to the BxM18 would be better than an empty SX run right in front of your door. To get from 230 St to 5av or to get from 26 St - Lower Manhattan? In the former case probably would be better off in the AM. The latter case the Downtown ridership isn't distributed where it can run the Loop like the BM1-5/QM7/8/11/25.

One of my biggest issues with having the BxM18 make stops in Midtown was that it would potentially cut into the BxM3 market. I'm not blaming them, just saying it might not be the wisest decision... The BxM3 SX run has a straight shot onto the Deegan before the Bxm18 (now that it skips Bailey Av) and has less riders (I've seen a few drop-off at 96 st but most start dropping off at 79 or below). Also if either BxM3 is in front of the BxM18 (~10 blocks) before hitting 96 St, it's going to stay in front all the down or close to it especially with traffic . So I would imagine having to leave earlier and take the time to drive, park, and wait for a crowded Bxm18 would negate any benefits. Yes to the service cut on Jerome but I'm reading: Bx3: Riverdale/231- GW Bridge via Marble Hill & University Bx32N: VCP/242-University/174 via Sedgwick & University Bx32S: River Park Towers- Mott Haven If that's the case I'll say surprisingly a decent amount of people (elderly especially) ride the Bx3 from the Heights through Sedgwick and VA riders want Jerome over University for some reason. But the last one would be viable if it was an extension of the Bx18 S/E.

I'm interested in hearing them. The U-turn at 238 St continues to suck even with the recent changes in the intersection. Recently, they've started leaving 2 at time with 1 skipping the first stop, forcing all the riders to crawl home from the . I'd rather cut the service down going to 238 so the B/os are forced to maintain it, ending other runs at Sedgwick/VA and maybe add LTD service. I can't think of another way to serve Sedgwick/Ft Independence besides the Bx3 though (once I thought of sending the Bx2 south but there's no place to turnaound). It also needs to run S/B a little later. the Bx8.. yeah I'm not sure who thought it was a good idea to put the first S/B stop on WPR but it's bad. Also never got why it went to 225 over 233 St leaving Bronxwood with no service. The people on Bway really don't have to care or advocate because the Bx9s extremely frequent and quick on that section. With the BxM3, I don't think they take full advantage of those SX runs... It's a given that the bulk of ridership is on Sedgwick but it surprised me to see how packed the Sedgwick bus was vs. the Bway bus when they both hit 96 st at the same time.

They had to start doing the short turns to 242 again because otherwise 4-5 buses end up in a conga line to 262. As is, there's too much service on that end and the buses are never packed so adding shuttles would be a waste. Off topic, As for the "element on Broadway after a certain hour"... I literally went to the bank at 2am this morning and it was completely safe. It's dead quiet and 50th drives around frequently. Funny you mention organic options, because I tried looking for kombucha in Riverdale when the B'way stores ran out and had no such luck. All the points you made are valid but tbh, no Bx9 rider wants a 262-242 or a 262-225 run... for some reason both are pretty useless. The people heading southeast generally don't want any of the x-fers along Bway except for the Bx3 but that service on 238 is so spotty post 6pm. So you end up benefitting all of 10-15 people and everyone else has to wait God knows how long for the next WF run. They really need to make the Bx9 run every 60 mins at night though.

I think you can turn right from the service road but putting a stop there would cause a loss of parking and they already had that issue come up when the Pkwy was redone on the other side of WPR. Thanks, I always thought that designation meant it terminated where the Q44 does for some reason. But yeah I'm seeing all sorts of short-turns these days, which is telling me the service needs to be revamped. They should just bite the bullet and have some of the w/b Bway-225 runs end, DHD via bway-228-KB-230-Bway-225, layover in front of Chase and send them back east. Also stop sending a conga line up to 262. I use the Southern/E180 portion the least (so I don't really care about it) and cutting it back would ideally make the Bx9 more reliable. will a rush hour service/route cut combo help or hinder my chances of actually being able to get on the bus? As is, I have to walk to the most mornings; (gave up on the because I'm not walking 15 mins and standing for an hour+). Not to beat a dead horse but re: Bx12/22 synergy, were/are we discussing just the SBS, just the local or both? IMO there are 2 separate issues: the synergy between the local/Bx22 is the real problem but its mainly due to the former. Going W/B the locals bunch miserably (I have to wonder if its done purposely) and when you add the fact that the W/B Bx12 terminal+layover is the most isolated terminal on this side of the Bronx it only gets worse. I frequently see buses just departing E/B whenever (rarely holding at Fordham Hill if early). For that reason when its should be meeting an E/B Bx22 coming off Valentine or Kingsbridge (which for the most part are on-time), the Bx12 is in between both. if your going to Pelham Pkwy or the near side of Morris Park it's not worth getting off and waiting @ Southern when you can either walk or get the Bx39. if you're going south of there you have to wait at Southern because it's not easy to x-fer past there which sucks when the weather is bad because theres no shelter at the 22 stop. The synergy issue with the SBS is easy to fix because it's a problem with all the Fordham Rd routes. For the most part the SBS stops are ahead of the other stops. Having the E/B 22 stop in front of the SBS at Southern means 22 just peals off as people are running for it. Tell the ops on all the routes to hold 20-30 seconds if they see another bus pull up. Moving on, is there a reason why the Bx19 doesn't have LTD service?

Those blocks are long and I'm not sure it even has the headways for it. While it does take some time to get from BPE to Parkchester, it's not necessarily a bad thing. the Bx22 is forced to make every stop even if the Bx39 is right there, so I think it shows the ridership is decent and spread out. It's not even about making it quicker to go south, running the Bx22 via Pelham Pkwy-WPR instead of via Boston would be next to impossible. I see a decent amount of people riding from 225/Kingsbridge through to Southern in the PM, so I'm slightly inclined to think the opposite could be true in the AM. 2 questions: how do you turn the Bx9 at 187 St? (I've been trying to figure out how those Fordham Plz/Crotona Av/Bronx Zoo runs turn around for a while) wouldn't you also have to cut Bx9 service?

The ridership along the current route to Parkchester seems to be enough to necessitate Artics for a good part of the day but post PM peak, it can absolutely run 40 footers (I'm not sure how theyve justified artics on the Bx22 late night runs but not on the Bx28). The Bedford Park runs could be a rush hour only service but an all out cutback would be fought. Can you explain where the boost in usage would be coming from? As is, I'm not trying to take the Bx9/40 to Parkchester so I see the Bx22 via WF being more time consuming and all local, encouraging more people to take the Bx12/39 combo I'm not confident the Bx39 can handle Morris Park/Van Nest by itself. This takes riders off the Bx9 (not sure if this would equal the ridership lost on WPR/BPE) but that stretch Tremont doesn't have much on it and it doesn't gain any new connections at WFS. With the Bx40/42 I feel like allowing people to pay before boarding might be the only option in terms of alleviating everything thats wrong with that route.

Well the West/East divider is Jerome which runs solely in the West Bronx... half of KB Heights is in the same CB as Norwood its the NW Bronx. The lack of synergy is why I'm not sure removing it from Fordham is the best move as trying to x-fer to/from the Bx12 & 22 (pretty much any of the Fordham routes) is challenging. The Bx22 has saved me quite a few times coming from Morris Park at night if I wasn't going to make it to Pelham in time for the 12. the fact that it somewhat overlaps with the Bx9 weekdays helps when it bunches or has a massive service gaps but the stint up Goulden really is dead outside school hours (not sure where else it can go). Ridership between Parkchester and Fordham seems pretty good as is (I was actually surprised at it needing to make every stop from Southern to Met Oval) and I imagine going via WF would take longer.

Sending it the way you described and then to Woodlawn would serve Montefiore but I just realized this misses the train. So I'm going to have just go with via Sedgwick-Goulden-BPB-Bainbridge-Woodlawn There are people who travel from the NE Bronx to Riverdale daily for work but you're right the Bx16/28/30/34/38 have them covered. Anyone along the Bx41 can take something else to the Bx7/9/10/20 to get to Riverdale. Same goes for the Bx39 unless you're in Clasons Point (Can't see many people stomaching a local bus ride to Riverdale from there). City Island is really the only place in the N/E Bronx you can't get to from the NW Bronx with a 2-seat ride and that's why theres the extra x-fer

This. You had me until you threw Gun Hill Rd into the mix. That routing to Woodlawn as B35 said would be fine, just take it off 205 St west of Jerome. 3. The AM Riverdale-231 runs start towards the end of rush hour (after 8:21) and it seems to be more so to cut service down to midday levels, I'd argue that all 10 buses are needed along the whole route for at least for the 7-8am hour. 6. My concern is connectivity over reliability. So the Bx26 extension isn't just unreliable, it gains less connections than the Bx10 is losing and MTA isn't going to offer up 2 xfers. Bx26 was the main bus from Co-op City-Fordham through the 90s not the Bx28 but one had to be cut. cutting the other now doesn't help any riders in that area. I don't see any issues with the Bx28 south of Norwood other than having wait 30 mins at times esp on weekends which is why the Bx38 helps. It isn't the turns or traffic, it's the fact the buses were bunched going to in Norwood and there's no way to make up time after that outside of Paul Av. Leave the artics on the Bx22, take them off the Bx4/5.

Okay 1. Reliability issues: traffic in Kingsbridge/Kingsbridge Heights can go from nothing to complete standstill gridlock in 2 minutes. I wouldn't want all of the Bx26 service at the mercy of Deegan traffic backups on Bailey in addition to Bronx River backups. 2. You'd prolly need to split it with KB or add short turns somewhere 3. AM rush The Bx10 has 10 buses per hour vs. 7.5 buses on the Bx26 which is a service cut between BPB-Paul 4. Bx26 isn't 24/7 5. No direct service from Montefiore/Norwood to the 6. Bx26 gains connections to the Bx3/7/9/20/(1); Bx10 loses connections to the Bx2/3/16/28/30/34/38/ / This is worse than cutting the Bx28 back [which is bad because a) they cut back the Bx26 years ago b) loss of connections c) the Bx38 runs down there on the weekends additionally showing the service is needed]. It kills the only "good" connection between the NW Bronx and NE Bronx north of Fordham. If BPB cut across the Reservoir it'd be a completely different thing to send the Bx26 west. Also Bx10 via Sedgwick-Mosholu-Jerome you'd be duplicating the Bx1/2 even more in an area where there's no ridership generators, assuming that Lehman College doesn't need the Bx10 and that school trippers would be enough for the high schools. I doubt the last part because back in HS I saw empty buses fill up at Paul/BPB alone. I never understood why there arent school trips on top of the regular runs. But the only way to straighten it is Sedgwick-Goulden-BPB. Bx3 needs artics over the Bx10 but KB needs more for the Bx1/2/9 in general tbh... as for chokepoints like B35 said the whole route is a drag. East of 231/Bailey it seems like the lights are set up where once you hit one, you hit all of them. N/B going from 239-254 is the only fast part of the route. On the Riverdale end, I honestly wonder if it would be better to swap the Bx7/10 s/o 239.

Yes to the Bx26 but I see it getting caught in traffic on Kingsbridge, messing up service on Allerton. Maybe, alternating runs or rush hour service? also not sure where the terminal could be placed without losing parking. The Bx9 uses up both stops at 225/Bway for layovers etc; there isn't enough space at the Bx7/20 stop N/B. The Bx28 south of Fordham has spotty service as is but cutting it pushes people onto the Bx34 which doesn't serve Lehman College or Kingsbridge Road. I'd do Local Fordham to Norwood; LTD Norwood to Section 5 via 1-2-3-4-5. The Bx38 runs local Norwood- Section 5 via Section 4-Bay Plaza- Section 5 The Bx16 needs the ridership along Nereid and putting the Bx34 up there prevents people along Nereid from getting to Dyre Av/Pelham The Bx37 sounds good and running the Bx10 via Sedgwick-Goulden-BPB is the best fix.

Bearing YON closing.... You forgot the Bxm3 (KB) and Bxm11 (ECH). KB would have to lose ~65 buses to gain the MCIs and 4 routes, which about a quarter of the local fleet. That'd be more than just the M100 leaving and my thing is that all of KB's current routes make sense. the Bx1/2/3/10/20/41 can't go anywhere else, the M100 could be run elsewhere but it basically ends at KB, the Bx7 could be split MHV but idk what happens to the runs that end at Isham/218 St and I can easily see Riverdale complaining, the Bx15 being split was the trade off of the Bx55 being canned and I don't think WF could handle the 15 solo or split the Bx9 as is. The only other route that can get tossed out is the Bx18 and thats all of ~6-8 buses. If YON has to close, I'd leave KB out of any Bx moves besides sending the Bx32 back over there