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R44 5278

M1/M3 Carbon Steel Strip?

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The M1s, M2s, and M3s have always been extremely interesting in that they are the only Budd-built trains that don't look Budd-built trains. Budd-built trains almost always have ripple shiny sides much like the Amfleets, R11s, and R32s. Even the Budd designed/GE-built Silverliners I-IVs and Arrow II-IIIs resemble Budd trains more than the M1s-M3s. Instead, the M1s-M3s look as if they were actually built by St Louis Car Co especially by the strips on the side. Nowdays, all the LIRR M1s' (now retired), and most of the M3s have that blue strip removed much like the R44s and R46s:

p7160026n.jpg

If you look closer, that strip looks more like carbon steel than stainless steel. Does the M1s-M3s have the same problem as the R44s in that the carbon strips are rusting? If so, is this also why all of MNRR M1As, M2s, and M3As as well as a few LIRR M3s still have their strips? This question had been bugging me to expose for a long time, but I've never gotten the chance. Any info would greatly be appreciated!

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They are like that so paint will stick to it, and i do believe it is carbon steel. The ribbed body shells are like that to add rigidity and have some positive aerodynamic effects as well. There are other non-ribbed budd cars, but i honestly can't recall any right now.

 

The main reason these are not ribbed is per order request from the TA at the time, they wanted sleek modern sexy electrics to replace all the old stuff.

 

To make up for my temporary lack of memory on the topic, here is a factory floor photo, from the Budd plant in philly.

 

ExplorePAHistory-a0b3d7-a_349.jpg

 

If i come up with any more answers/information i'll put it in this thread.

 

- A

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Thanks Andy! I've seriously never seen the pictures of the Silverliners in production before. Certainly, the current dark Silverliner IIIs are shadows of their former shining past.

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Ok, it looks like there are a few non-ribbed or minimally ribbed designs.

 

neworleans.jpg

 

WalthersBuddDomeCoach.gif

 

The MFL cars have some ribbing below the windows, but not above.

 

As stated before, the ribbing adds a significant amount of strength to the car shell without adding a lot of weight. For example, if a ribbed car was hit, the ribbing would absorb a lot of the impact before structurally damaging the shell. A flat side (non-ribbed) car would immediately sustain damage needing repair, deforming the frames of the doors and windows, whereas the ribbing could crumple before this happened.

 

- A

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Thanks Andy! I've seriously never seen the pictures of the Silverliners in production before. Certainly, the current dark Silverliner IIIs are shadows of their former shining past.

 

Actually, the car on the bottom right is an EMU, the rest are horizon type cars, leightweight unpowered passenger coaches. You can tell the EMU by its distinctive coupler (pin/cup) which is flat at the end vs curved. There is an end streamliner car next to the horizon car in the center of the photo. Behind it is a lounge/parlor car.

 

- A

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Ah, thanks for the correction. Budd would've been excellent today on the American Commuter RR industry and could've even surpassed GE and Bombardier. It's ashamed that their contracts were so expensive back then, which ultimately led to their downfall.

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The cars off into the distance are on different assembly lines for different customers, and divided by type.

 

- A

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Ah, thanks for the correction. Budd would've been excellent today on the American Commuter RR industry and could've even surpassed GE and Bombardier. It's ashamed that their contracts were so expensive back then, which ultimately led to their downfall.

 

They really were perfectionists. Them and Pullman really wrote the book on good railcar design. St Louis Car played a much smaller roll compared to Budd, and mostly focused on smaller self powered vehicles such as PCC and trolly and subway cars as well as main line gasoline and other cars, many for the IC.

 

- A

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The M2s are apart of the MNCRR's NH Line

 

M1/M3/M7= LIRR

M1A/M2/M3A/M4/M6/M7A= MNCRR

 

:)

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They really were perfectionists. Them and Pullman really wrote the book on good railcar design. St Louis Car played a much smaller roll compared to Budd, and mostly focused on smaller self powered vehicles such as PCC and trolly and subway cars as well as main line gasoline and other cars, many for the IC.

 

- A

 

Yes, the PCCs were definitely St Louis Car Co's most successful creation. Every company has their own specialties even to this day. To me, Bombardier and Alstom specializes in commuter/high speed rail/some rapid transit, Kawasaki in mostly commuter/high speed rail, and GE in only Freight Locomotives.

 

The M2s are apart of the MNCRR's NH Line

 

M1/M3/M7= LIRR

M1A/M2/M3A/M4/M6/M7A= MNCRR

 

:)

 

Yes I know, but my point is that they are also built by Budd.

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The stripe area on ALL cars with stripes EXCEPT the R44s has ALWAYS been STAINLESS STEEL.

 

The side ribbing is mostly superficial, although in some cars, it does provide some structural support.

 

The cars in the photo of the budd plant appear to be a mix of Silverliner 2s and other unpowered lightweight streamliner equipment of various designs. Horizon coaches are all from Bombardier, NOT Budd. The design originated from the Pullman Comet 1s.

 

Budd utilized many designs without any ribbing. the CTA 2600 series is an example of such.

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Also...

The PCC design was not by SLC. The PCC was designed by the PCC, hence its name. PCCs were built by a number of builders, Clark, SLC, ACF, and Brill off the top of my head, I am sure others built them as well.

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Art, most of the M1s and M3s have a whitish carbon steel-like strip while some others have a shining stainless steel strip like this one:

lynbrook13.jpg

You can clearly see that the stripes on this train blend in with the train, while the ones of my photo don't. Are you sure that the stainless steel strips weren't replacement strips like those on the SIRT R44s?

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The stripe area on ALL cars with stripes EXCEPT the R44s has ALWAYS been STAINLESS STEEL.

 

The side ribbing is mostly superficial, although in some cars, it does provide some structural support.

 

The cars in the photo of the budd plant appear to be a mix of Silverliner 2s and other unpowered lightweight streamliner equipment of various designs. Horizon coaches are all from Bombardier, NOT Budd. The design originated from the Pullman Comet 1s.

 

Budd utilized many designs without any ribbing. the CTA 2600 series is an example of such.

 

Also...

The PCC design was not by SLC. The PCC was designed by the PCC, hence its name. PCCs were built by a number of builders, Clark, SLC, ACF, and Brill off the top of my head, I am sure others built them as well.

 

Yea, they were just a major builder of them for the markets out west, the ones in philly and nyc were made by brill and budd for the most part, but it really varies by line capacity of the plants, if brill was maxed they went to slc.

 

As far as the horizon's, you are correct, i was thinking of the types used on the streamliners, i call them horizon because they are reminiscent of the stainless steel stuff pullman did. Technically they are modern streamline lightweight cars i guess. :cool:

 

The car to the left above the rolling frame of the EMU could easily be a trailer unit, but they all look so similar i can't really tell from that angle. There is certainly no provision for a pantograph, so it must be a trailer or B unit.

 

What can be said for sure about the photo, is it reveals how massive their operations were. A revised & revived Budd would be 10000% welcomed in philly, i just wish there was such a demand in the us for service requiring so many railcars! :eek::cool::)

 

- A

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I am entirely sure. Carbon steel looks nothing like stainless steel. Carbon steel doesn't shine. it is a dull reddish brown. The metal stripe on all M1-M6s are stainless steel. Any visible discolorations are due to residue from the stripe which was previously there.

 

Pullman Standard built a number of other fully stainless cars. A few streamliners, and probably most notably of all, the Superliner I order, were entirely stainless steel.

 

It should also be noted that two of the proposals for the R38 fleet were for fully stainless construction(Budd and SLC both made such proposals. SLC also made a proposal for what would have essentially been a B Division R36WF. SLC and Budd also both submitted bids for the composite design eventually used for the R38.)

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Thanks for the info! I just remembered that the T/A repainted those R44 strips gray. But somehow certain M1 and M3 stripes stil stand out to me in a white/grayish color.

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Thanks for the info! I just remembered that the T/A repainted those R44 strips gray. But somehow certain M1 and M3 stripes stil stand out to me in a white/grayish color.

 

I've gone to NYP and GCT many, many times, and i can tell you right now, the older cars have a different feeling metal strip there, if it's different metal, then it is, if it's not then it isn't, all i know is that the M7's and M3's do not at all look the same on the outside or inside aside from the general form factor.

 

Anyone who has seen them in person will agree. The M1/M3 is from an older tech group of self propelled cars, it has an air intake on the side in the middle, and the seats are either brown faux leather, or red and blue. The brown faux leather is reminiscent of pre-overhaul arrow 3, and pre-overhaul comet 1 and 2, while the red and blue is probably from the 80's. The M7 has the bucket style seats.

 

The M1/M3 also has the stripe down the side which used to be either red for CONNDOT, or blue for (MTA) for MNRR. Some still have these stripes. On the LIRR side, the M1/M3s are YELLOW on the front and some have a yellow stripe, but most have the strip in question.

 

After further review of my own memories, photos, and such, i can say with some certainty that they are indeed stainless steel, however with a different texture.

 

- (A)

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Thanks for the info! Swerving off topic, are you saying that the current seats on the M3/As, Comet I, and Arrow IIIs aren't original? Regarding the seats on the M1/A and M3/A, why are there no headrests for the red seats?

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Thanks for the info! Swerving off topic, are you saying that the current seats on the M3/As, Comet I, and Arrow IIIs aren't original? Regarding the seats on the M1/A and M3/A, why are there no headrests for the red seats?

 

I have not seen any comet 1 inside in years, no idea what they look like now.

 

NJT_Comet-1-5125-Interrior-coach-end.jpg

 

As for the older EMU, i can only say it was speced out by (MTA), and designed by committee. Not the best of designs for safety i must say. I'm guessing it made it easier for bags to be lifted over to go in the luggage racks. They are original as far as i know, but the older stuff currently in service with (NJT) have had their seats re-upholstered from the brown faux leather to the current offering(s).

 

 

- A

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When you say brown faux leather, doesn't the Comet I seats in the picture as well as the current Comet/Arrow III seats fit that description? The only NJT fleet that changed seating styles were the Comet II as they were rebuilt to resemble the Comet IVs except with gray seats instead of green seats. I can only imagine that the original Comet II seats were the same as the non flippable seats in the Comet I picture. And also, did you mean that the M1-M3 used to have the same seats as the Comet Is in your picture?

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