R to 179th Street-Jamaica?

[Q67 via Borden]

The was cut back to Forest Hills because people wanted the train since it was express. The was way too slow. What would happen is that people would take the to the next station where they can access the train. If people are going to do that, you might as well not have the go to 179 Street since it is easier to just have the make those stops (there was only one local station in between the express stations east of Forest Hills so it didn't add a considerable amount of time anyways). It's basically that same logic with that dead horse known as extending the to Lefferts for the sake of getting rid of one of the train's branches. Thing is although it increases service to Lefferts, the riders want express, not local service. So what they would do is they would take that to Rockaway Boulevard and immediately get off at that station for the . The would be basically be carrying air until Euclid Avenue. So for the same reason the doesn't go to Lefferts, the was cut back to Forest Hills.

[RollOver]

That would overload the N and Q, which are already close to guideline. It probably wouldn't overload the R, but it would make the local a less attractive alternative to the E/F, so cutting R service might overload the E.

 

I'm not sure what the problem is with today's service that you want it to be less frequent.

 

During the AM Rush in the southbound direction (and reverse in the northbound direction during the PM Rush), I really think that the , , and trains should be running at 10 minute headways so that way it relives the 60th Street tube and also at 34th Street-Herald Square. Both the and already run every 4-6 minutes in both directions at rush hour anyway (and 6-8 minutes on middays and evenings).

 

How would it overload said trains you mention? You're seriously implying that Astoria would get crushloaded trains even if the and  run every 10 minutes in the reverse peak direction at rush hour (and in both directions on middays and evenings)? Combined the headway and its 5 minutes or even 4-6 minutes. How can you honestly refute me with what you just said? We will always see an , and within 10 minutes, between Times Square-42nd Street and Lexington Avenue-59th Street every Monday through Friday.

 

For the Brooklyn portion of all three Broadway lines in the reverse peak direction at rush hour with their 6-8 minute headway, I can sort of understand (selected and trains already terminate at 57th Street and get stored between Times Square-42nd Street and Lexington Avenue-63rd Street so I think selected trains should terminate at either Whitehall or City Hall to avoid the mess at Herald Square and also lay up on the center tracks between Canal Street Upper Level and City Hall Lower level).

[Guest Lance]

During the AM Rush in the southbound direction (and reverse in the northbound direction during the PM Rush), I really think that the , , and trains should be running at 10 minute headways so that way it relives the 60th Street tube and also at 34th Street-Herald Square. Both the and already run every 4-6 minutes in both directions at rush hour anyway (and 6-8 minutes on middays and evenings).

 

How would it overload said trains you mention? You're seriously implying that Astoria would get crushloaded trains even if the and  run every 10 minutes in the reverse peak direction at rush hour (and in both directions on middays and evenings)? Combined the headway and its 5 minutes or even 4-6 minutes. How can you honestly refute me with what you just said? We will always see an , and within 10 minutes, between Times Square-42nd Street and Lexington Avenue-59th Street every Monday through Friday.

 

For the Brooklyn portion of all three Broadway lines in the reverse peak direction at rush hour with their 6-8 minute headway, I can sort of understand (selected and trains already terminate at 57th Street and get stored between Times Square-42nd Street and Lexington Avenue-63rd Street so I think selected trains should terminate at either Whitehall or City Hall to avoid the mess at Herald Square and also lay up on the center tracks between Canal Street Upper Level and City Hall Lower level).

Running those lines, especially the N and Q, at ten minute intervals would be a service reduction as both of those lines run every six to eight minutes each during the rush hours. Yeah, there is a bottleneck at Herald Sq and the 60th Street tubes, but cutting service is not the answer. It won't save any time since passengers will just hold the trains at the stations trying to get on-board. Part of the problem is that more Q trains used to terminate at 57 St-7 Av, but with ongoing work at Lexington Av-63 St, the former layup tracks on 63rd Street are out of service, forcing more trains to Astoria.

[itmaybeokay]

That would overload the N and Q, which are already close to guideline. It probably wouldn't overload the R, but it would make the local a less attractive alternative to the E/F, so cutting R service might overload the E.

 

I'm not sure what the problem is with today's service that you want it to be less frequent.

 

 

During the AM Rush in the southbound direction (and reverse in the northbound direction during the PM Rush), I really think that the , , and trains should be running at 10 minute headways so that way it relives the 60th Street tube and also at 34th Street-Herald Square. Both the and already run every 4-6 minutes in both directions at rush hour anyway (and 6-8 minutes on middays and evenings).

 

How would it overload said trains you mention? You're seriously implying that Astoria would get crushloaded trains even if the and  run every 10 minutes in the reverse peak direction at rush hour (and in both directions on middays and evenings)? Combined the headway and its 5 minutes or even 4-6 minutes. How can you honestly refute me with what you just said? We will always see an , and within 10 minutes, between Times Square-42nd Street and Lexington Avenue-59th Street every Monday through Friday.

 

For the Brooklyn portion of all three Broadway lines in the reverse peak direction at rush hour with their 6-8 minute headway, I can sort of understand (selected and trains already terminate at 57th Street and get stored between Times Square-42nd Street and Lexington Avenue-63rd Street so I think selected trains should terminate at either Whitehall or City Hall to avoid the mess at Herald Square and also lay up on the center tracks between Canal Street Upper Level and City Hall Lower level).

 

AM Between 8-9 the is above guideline by the time it hits Steinway St. Depending on the timing of trains discharging at Lex, it can become Crushloaded at Lexington Av-59th st. 

 

The reason I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that cutting R service any further in the AM is a bad idea is because it is already at the point where minor delays snowball quickly. If an R train is 1 minute late getting to 46 st, overloading will cause station dwell times to rise dramatically, and it will be 4-5 minutes late getting to 57st. This is based on daily experience - and it's not even anecdotal, for a while I used to keep track of these things. (I made a science of finding the fastest route to work and the best time to leave, don't judge me)

[AndrewJC]

During the AM Rush in the southbound direction (and reverse in the northbound direction during the PM Rush), I really think that the , , and trains should be running at 10 minute headways so that way it relives the 60th Street tube and also at 34th Street-Herald Square. Both the and already run every 4-6 minutes in both directions at rush hour anyway (and 6-8 minutes on middays and evenings).

 

Let's check the numbers.

 

By your proposal, the combined N/Q would run every 5 minutes, and the R would run every 10 minutes. The rush hour loading guideline for 60 foot equipment running on a 5 minute headway is 135 people per car. That's 135 x 10 = 1,350 people per 10 car train, and 1,350 x 12 = 16,200 people per hour. The rush hour loading guideline for 75 foot equipment running on a 10 minute headway is 140 people per car. That's 140 x 8 = 1,120 people per 8 car train, and 6,720 people per hour. So the total carrying capacity of your proposed service is 16,200 + 6,720 = 22,920 people per hour.

 

Now let's turn to the Hub Bound Travel Data. Page 71 of the PDF gives the hourly ridership into the Manhattan CBD through each of the Queens crossings. Between 8 and 9, the N/Q/R combined carry 25,076 people.

 

That's 9% over guideline. Whoops.

 

Let's try it again for the E and M. You are proposing to run the M on a 10 minute headway; let's leave the E at its current 4 minute headway. The rush hour loading guideline for 60 foot equipment running on a 4 minute headway is 145 people per car. That 145 x 10 = 1,450 people per 10 car train, and 1,450 x 15 = 21,750 people per hour. The rush hour loading guideline for 60 foot equipment running on a 10 minute headway is 115 people per car. That's 115 x 8 = 920 people per 8 car train, and 5,520 people per hour. So the total carrying capacity of your proposed service is 21,720 + 5,520 = 27,270 people per hour.

 

According to the Hub Bound data, the 53rd Street tube sees "only" 26,907, so we're "merely" at 99% of guideline - not leaving much room for growth, are we?

 

And these numbers are probably low, for two reasons. First, the peak hour for ridership is probably not aligned with a clockface hour. The peak hour may be, say, 7:42 to 8:42, but this report only shows clockface hours. Second, the cordon location is not necessarily the peak load point. On the N and Q, the peak load point is certainly Queensboro Plaza (the N/Q picks up more people from the 7 than vice versa). But the peak load point on the M and R is probably Elmhurst Ave., and the peak load point on the E is probably Roosevelt Ave.

[RtrainBlues]

Don't forget the Brooklyn R portion.  10 minute rush-hour headways were disastrous during the post-Hurricane Sandy service and led to massive overcrowding (overflow crowds by the time you got to Union St in the mornings), so they wisely increased the current Brooklyn rush-hour shuttle service to 7.5 minute headways.  It makes all the difference in the world. 

[RollOver]

Don't forget the Brooklyn R portion.  10 minute rush-hour headways were disastrous during the post-Hurricane Sandy service and led to massive overcrowding (overflow crowds by the time you got to Union St in the mornings), so they wisely increased the current Brooklyn rush-hour shuttle service to 7.5 minute headways.  It makes all the difference in the world. 

 

Part of another reason why the weekday Brooklyn runs every 7-8 minutes in both directions at rush hour is because it doesn't have any access to the City Hall/Canal Street center "express" lay-up tracks to be stored since the Montague Street tube is closed. Otherwise of course, during the AM Rush in the southbound direction and reverse during the PM Rush in the northbound direction, you would only need 10 minute headways since those weekday Brooklyn trains would be almost empty or a few seats available for pretty obvious reasons.

 

Though I'm still not going to buy AndrewJC's wording about the and being overloaded out of Astoria (AM Rush) and back into Astoria (PM Rush) with the combined headway of 5 minutes or 4-6 minutes - not unless he tells me if 28th, 23rd, 8th and Prince Streets (and the Broadway express stops in general) really need a train every 2-3 minutes combined during the rush hour commuters in the reverse peak direction from Astoria residents who only have the at those four local stations in Manhattan (not referring to the and its Queens Boulevard commuters).

[bobtehpanda]

Part of another reason why the weekday Brooklyn runs every 7-8 minutes in both directions at rush hour is because it doesn't have any access to the City Hall/Canal Street center "express" lay-up tracks to be stored since the Montague Street tube is closed. Otherwise of course, during the AM Rush in the southbound direction and reverse during the PM Rush in the northbound direction, you would only need 10 minute headways since those weekday Brooklyn trains would be almost empty or a few seats available for pretty obvious reasons.

 

Though I'm still not going to buy AndrewJC's wording about the and being overloaded out of Astoria (AM Rush) and back into Astoria (PM Rush) with the combined headway of 5 minutes or 4-6 minutes - not unless he tells me if 28th, 23rd, 8th and Prince Streets (and the Broadway express stops in general) really need a train every 2-3 minutes combined during the rush hour commuters in the reverse peak direction from Astoria residents who only have the at those four local stations in Manhattan (not referring to the and its Queens Boulevard commuters).

 

You obviously have not seen the massive amounts of people who get off the for the and . At least three quarters of the gets off at that stop for an easier transfer to Lex (and less annoying transfers to get to Midtown)

[AndrewJC]

Though I'm still not going to buy AndrewJC's wording about the and being overloaded out of Astoria (AM Rush) and back into Astoria (PM Rush) with the combined headway of 5 minutes or 4-6 minutes - not unless he tells me if 28th, 23rd, 8th and Prince Streets (and the Broadway express stops in general) really need a train every 2-3 minutes combined during the rush hour commuters in the reverse peak direction from Astoria residents who only have the at those four local stations in Manhattan (not referring to the and its Queens Boulevard commuters).

 

How did we get to the stations in the middle of Manhattan? The peak load point is not in the middle of Manhattan.

 

Going from Queens to Manhattan, through the 60th Street tube, the N, Q, and R carry more people between 8 and 9 in the morning than 18 trains per hour can carry (according to NYCT loading guidelines). I posted the numbers. There is really nothing to dispute.

[RollOver]

Delete.