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Bklyn Bound 2 Local

Unused lines and bullets thread

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I've always thought about how the (NX) became the only line that went through one side of Coney Island and out the other, and how the (TT) had probably the most useless route.

I've also wondered why we no longer show Bedford Park bound (B) trains like this:<B>. And I've thought about why the middle track of the Jerome Av line is unused, when it could be a great rush hour service. Is there anything like that you have ever wondered about, or want to talk about?

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9 hours ago, Bklyn Bound 2 Local said:

I've always thought about how the (NX) became the only line that went through one side of Coney Island and out the other, and how the (TT) had probably the most useless route.

I've also wondered why we no longer show Bedford Park bound (B) trains like this:<B>. And I've thought about why the middle track of the Jerome Av line is unused, when it could be a great rush hour service. Is there anything like that you have ever wondered about, or want to talk about?

Okay, here is the thing with this (it would have ended up in the random thoughts thread, but I'mma let you off the hook with this):

The (NX) as a service label went as a BMT Loop through Coney Island, but it began from Brighton Beach via the Brighton Line and likely used the direct connection to the Sea Beach tracks from the Brighton Line at Coney Island to stop there. From there, it ran express via Sea Beach before following the Fourth Avenue Express from 59 to Pacific Streets and then used the south side of the Manhattan Bridge to run from Canal Street to Midtown - 57 Street - 7 Avenue. It later became part of the (N) train in 1968 because of low ridership.

The (TT) as a service label was considered as the short line service that ran from Chambers Street via Nassau to 62 Street or Bensonhurst - Bay Parkway. This mainly ran during weekday rush hours, but as a full fledged service it initially ran to Coney Island using the West End platform. As a result of a recapture that the (NYCT) engineered beginning from November 25, 1957 to November 26, 1967 with the building of the Chrystie Street Connection, the (TT) became redundant and folded into the :B: train, taking on all of the service patterns into Manhattan including the West End shuttle except for the original Nassau service which during the beginning of the Manhattan Bridge renovation era became part of the (brownM) on April 26, 1986 due to a renovation project along Brighton also beginning that same day as the other renovation project. Even after the south side of the Manhattan Bridge began to see renovations on December 11, 1988, it stayed there for the next few years until June 25, 2010. Prior to that time, the (brownM) during middays was truncated from Ninth Avenue to Chambers Street when the (orangeQ) also went via Whitehall middays as a result of both parts of the bridge being rebuilt at about the same time. It stayed there as a result of service cuts beginning November 12, 1995 as a result of service cuts that happened, one of which involved closing down Dean Street on the Franklin (S). It later came back to Ninth Avenue middays as a result of the final phase of the renovation, but kept its rush hour run to Bay Parkway that stayed through. Most of the short line including the main line has now been folded into the (D) train from Pacific Street to Coney Island as of June 26, 2010, the other has been served solely by the (R) at all times from Court Street to Dekalb Avenue also as of that date.

The use of rush hour labels to indicate anything else (like the <C> via Concourse or the <4> bypassing 138 Street) was discontinued on May 27, 2005 since the meaning now applied to weekday services running express alongside the same line (like the Pelham Bay Park <6> Express). The Mosholu middle track was once used during tests for Mosholu <4> Express service from Mosholu Parkway to 149 Street - Grand Concourse. That was deemed a failure after the second test that saw it begin from Bedford Park Boulevard because there were busier stops that existed along the (4) train, like Fordham Road that did not include just Burnside Avenue.

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On 5/29/2020 at 11:58 PM, 4 via Mosholu said:

The use of rush hour labels to indicate anything else (like the <C> via Concourse or the <4> bypassing 138 Street) was discontinued on May 27, 2005 since the meaning now applied to weekday services running express alongside the same line (like the Pelham Bay Park <6> Express). The Mosholu middle track was once used during tests for Mosholu <4> Express service from Mosholu Parkway to 149 Street - Grand Concourse. That was deemed a failure after the second test that saw it begin from Bedford Park Boulevard because there were busier stops that existed along the (4) train, like Fordham Road that did not include just Burnside Avenue.

This usage of the diamond was a great simplification for the reading of the map and utilization of the services.  Currently the only services utilizing the diamond are <6> and <7> .  They both are peak directional expresses as they run on three track lines (on <7> they take the long view of peak).  As one utilizes the system and one rides outbound trains toward the outermost stations one has to be careful for regularly scheduled variances. Some trains short turn and don't go all the way to the normal terminal, so listen for the train's destination.  There could be any number of emergency reroutes, but then there are some unusual things that also happen regularly.  Some (5) trains go  to Nereid and not Dyre.  Some (E) trains are Hillside expresses to 179 and do not serve Parsons/Archer.  Some 6th Avenue or Broadway trains, other than (Q) end up at 96th and 2 Ave (usually the weekend (M)).  Some (2) trains get sent to New Lots.  And, of course, (A) trains can end up at Far Rockway, Lefferts, or Rockaway Park. The last one bothered me the most since the (A) variant was basically all day (as opposed to just rush hours or just weekends), so I have felt that the Lefferts (A) should be renamed with a different letter, like (H) or (K), to distinguish it from the JFK/Rockaway services but this was never adopted.

Some people on this forum have proposed a service variant of <F> which would be a Culver line express (and meets the criteria of the above), but would also provides for a unique variant.  If (F) were moved from 63rd to 53rd, and (M) were run on 63rd, there needs to be a variant of service to allow for a QBL local - 63rd - 6 Ave service that continues onto Culver [and not to the Williamsburg Bridge] so that there won't be a service cut to 63rd and that the number of trains to Culver is maintained.  Some have termed this as an <F> but given that it's local, the designation would be confusing.  So perhaps a new orange letter like K or (V) would make more sense.

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On 5/29/2020 at 11:58 PM, 4 via Mosholu said:

The use of rush hour labels to indicate anything else (like the <C> via Concourse or the <4> bypassing 138 Street) was discontinued on May 27, 2005 since the meaning now applied to weekday services running express alongside the same line (like the Pelham Bay Park <6> Express). The Mosholu middle track was once used during tests for Mosholu <4> Express service from Mosholu Parkway to 149 Street - Grand Concourse. That was deemed a failure after the second test that saw it begin from Bedford Park Boulevard because there were busier stops that existed along the (4) train, like Fordham Road that did not include just Burnside Avenue.

Personally, I liked having diamond bullets to indicate rush hour extensions, such as the <C> or <B> to Concourse (or going further back, the <B> to 168th, though having the (B) to 57th and the <B> to 168th probably was the original reason for coming up with the (V) bullet). I get why they used the <Q> for the all-day Brighton express from 2001-04. It didn’t deviate from the regular (Q) except to be express in Brooklyn and short-turn at Brighton Beach (yet for some reason, it was always shown alongside its parent service, even at stations in Manhattan where the (Q) and <Q> made exactly the same stops).

4 hours ago, mrsman said:

This usage of the diamond was a great simplification for the reading of the map and utilization of the services.  Currently the only services utilizing the diamond are <6> and <7> .  They both are peak directional expresses as they run on three track lines (on <7> they take the long view of peak).  As one utilizes the system and one rides outbound trains toward the outermost stations one has to be careful for regularly scheduled variances. Some trains short turn and don't go all the way to the normal terminal, so listen for the train's destination.  There could be any number of emergency reroutes, but then there are some unusual things that also happen regularly.  Some (5) trains go  to Nereid and not Dyre.  Some (E) trains are Hillside expresses to 179 and do not serve Parsons/Archer.  Some 6th Avenue or Broadway trains, other than (Q) end up at 96th and 2 Ave (usually the weekend (M)).  Some (2) trains get sent to New Lots.  And, of course, (A) trains can end up at Far Rockway, Lefferts, or Rockaway Park. The last one bothered me the most since the (A) variant was basically all day (as opposed to just rush hours or just weekends), so I have felt that the Lefferts (A) should be renamed with a different letter, like (H) or (K), to distinguish it from the JFK/Rockaway services but this was never adopted.

Some people on this forum have proposed a service variant of <F> which would be a Culver line express (and meets the criteria of the above), but would also provides for a unique variant.  If (F) were moved from 63rd to 53rd, and (M) were run on 63rd, there needs to be a variant of service to allow for a QBL local - 63rd - 6 Ave service that continues onto Culver [and not to the Williamsburg Bridge] so that there won't be a service cut to 63rd and that the number of trains to Culver is maintained.  Some have termed this as an <F> but given that it's local, the designation would be confusing.  So perhaps a new orange letter like K or (V) would make more sense.

But the (E) and (2) services run so infrequently that they really don’t need to be shown on the map. Same for the first few and last few (W) trains that ran into/out of Brooklyn via the 4th Avenue local and Sea Beach line. 

The <F> is an interesting case. Pre-Covid, it didn’t run frequently enough to warrant being shown on the map and certainly didn’t need a different letter. Even if it graduates to a more-frequent rush hour or all-day weekday service, if it doesn’t deviate from the parent (F) service other than to run express, then it probably should stay <F>. But I’ve seen proposals calling for the (F) in 53rd and the <F> in 63rd. Now that is confusing and then the <F> should be redesigned (V) or another letter like K. Because you really don’t want to have two services with the same letter running at the same time between two boroughs through two different tunnels making different stops along the way.

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On 6/1/2020 at 12:57 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

The <F> is an interesting case. Pre-Covid, it didn’t run frequently enough to warrant being shown on the map and certainly didn’t need a different letter.

It wasn’t even distinct enough in service. Plenty of (F)s went express also due to frequent bunching in PM rush.

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