8 train coming back?!

[BreeddekalbL]

Supposedly someone did a foil request and this gave us a surprise 

https://twitter.com/ndhapple/status/1579214749023490048?t=P_vWYEQgOFFZsirw96iQ0w&s=19

[LGA Link N Train]

15 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Supposedly someone did a foil request and this gave us a surprise 

https://twitter.com/ndhapple/status/1579214749023490048?t=P_vWYEQgOFFZsirw96iQ0w&s=19

I shared this in the random thoughts thread…

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Well we don’t know for sure. I mean we all thought in late 2019 that the MTA was actually planning to move the weekday  to 53rd St and the  to 63rd in Spring 2020 and looked what happened there.

[zacster]

It was just a proposal.  It has two big flaws.  First, it reduces service to Kingston and Nostrand, in the middle of the Lubavitch district.  I don't know how much that matters, but whenever you reduce service people will complain.  Second, it makes Flatbush entirely 7th Ave and creates a transfer bottleneck at Franklin.  That will slow down the trains as much as the junction currently does.  The one compensating factor is that President St station is so close to Nostrand, and people will choose to go there instead if there is more service.  And if people are like me now, people will check the next train coming on their device and leave accordingly. 

I would also guess that instead of the 5 going to New Lots it will be the 4, with half terminating at Utica.  The 4 is full time and goes to New Lots now in off hours.  And then the new 8 train would have to run 6tph all day long as it is the only train at the 2 stations.

It would be years before they could implement this too because of public hearing requirements.

[vanshnookenraggen]

2 hours ago, zacster said:

It was just a proposal.  It has two big flaws.  First, it reduces service to Kingston and Nostrand, in the middle of the Lubavitch district.  I don't know how much that matters, but whenever you reduce service people will complain.  Second, it makes Flatbush entirely 7th Ave and creates a transfer bottleneck at Franklin.  That will slow down the trains as much as the junction currently does.  The one compensating factor is that President St station is so close to Nostrand, and people will choose to go there instead if there is more service.  And if people are like me now, people will check the next train coming on their device and leave accordingly. 

I would also guess that instead of the 5 going to New Lots it will be the 4, with half terminating at Utica.  The 4 is full time and goes to New Lots now in off hours.  And then the new 8 train would have to run 6tph all day long as it is the only train at the 2 stations.

It would be years before they could implement this too because of public hearing requirements.

I think you are probably over blowing the second "flaw", which is that with more service, the transfer time at Franklin goes down. With trains running every 2 min or less, and so close to the starting point of their runs, transfers can be "timed" so that a local and express enter the station at the same time and can allow for the extra time for transferring passengers. The junction delays trains by minutes, not seconds, so the transfer won't be as bad as you claim.

I also don't think this requires "years" of "public hearings". The MTA has made changes like this before and just told folks that was what they were doing. This isn't like a huge capital project that needs to shut down the city for a while. All the recommended proposals are relatively cheap, usually involving fixing/adding switches.

The only true issue is that Kingston Ave would be reduced to, at best, 6tph. While it doesn't have the highest ridership, it is nowhere near the bottom of the list, so you're going to piss a few folks off.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

3 hours ago, zacster said:

It was just a proposal.  It has two big flaws.  First, it reduces service to Kingston and Nostrand, in the middle of the Lubavitch district.  I don't know how much that matters, but whenever you reduce service people will complain.  Second, it makes Flatbush entirely 7th Ave and creates a transfer bottleneck at Franklin.  That will slow down the trains as much as the junction currently does.  The one compensating factor is that President St station is so close to Nostrand, and people will choose to go there instead if there is more service.  And if people are like me now, people will check the next train coming on their device and leave accordingly. 

I would also guess that instead of the 5 going to New Lots it will be the 4, with half terminating at Utica.  The 4 is full time and goes to New Lots now in off hours.  And then the new 8 train would have to run 6tph all day long as it is the only train at the 2 stations.

It would be years before they could implement this too because of public hearing requirements.

It can be the  that continues to New Lots alongside the ( 8 ) , while the  turns at Utica. I suppose that would make things a bit more consistent, because the plan as proposed would likely require the  to continue to New Lots overnight, unless the ( 8 ) runs 24/7, which I don't think they'd need to do.

1 hour ago, vanshnookenraggen said:

I think you are probably over blowing the second "flaw", which is that with more service, the transfer time at Franklin goes down. With trains running every 2 min or less, and so close to the starting point of their runs, transfers can be "timed" so that a local and express enter the station at the same time and can allow for the extra time for transferring passengers. The junction delays trains by minutes, not seconds, so the transfer won't be as bad as you claim.

I also don't think this requires "years" of "public hearings". The MTA has made changes like this before and just told folks that was what they were doing. This isn't like a huge capital project that needs to shut down the city for a while. All the recommended proposals are relatively cheap, usually involving fixing/adding switches.

The only true issue is that Kingston Ave would be reduced to, at best, 6tph. While it doesn't have the highest ridership, it is nowhere near the bottom of the list, so you're going to piss a few folks off.

I just wonder how things will work on the Bronx end of the lines. If the  is going to run 10 tph, how are they still going to run both Dyre and White Plains Road  services at acceptable headways. A 50/50 split would mean 12-minute headways on both Dyre and WPR. I can't see that happening. It would most likely have to be the  to Dyre only and the  and ( 8 ) to WPR. Maybe run the ( 8 ) peak express to placate WPR riders who would otherwise lose their Bronx Thru Express.

Edited October 11, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[mrsman]

There is definitely a lot of possibilities with running 8 train service.  

To reiterate from the report:

 12 TPH

 12 TPH

 20 TPH

 10 TPH

[8]      6 TPH

The baseline basically separates Flatbush and New Lots trains as much as possible.  Run as many 7th Ave trains that can be turned at Flatbush, and any excess will continue to New Lots.  At the same time, run all of the Lexington trains to Brooklyn regularly with  to Utica and  to New Lots.  The overall impact of the proposed change means far fewer conflicting movements in Brooklyn.  The only trains "reverse merging" are 8 and 5.

I imagine that the 8 train is basically a  train in every way, other than its Brooklyn terminal, heading to New Lots instead of Flatbush.  In the Bronx,  and 8 are both run from as local with   serving as the rush hour expresses of the Bronx line.  With only 10 TPH, there seems to be no more room for  trains, so perhaps those are also to be replaced with 8 trains.

 

[zacster]

Or maybe the trains will turn at Bowling Green?  That would make some sense as they aren't needed running through to Brooklyn in the AM.  How many TPH is the / now from the Bronx in the AM?  I know there were a few that turned at BG as I'd get on at 14th to an empty train after letting a few packed ones go by.  And as in the proposal, the reverse could be true in the evening. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I mean, they could do that, if they don’t already. But then you’ve still got the remaining  trains crossing in front of the  in both directions between Nostrand and Franklin. 

I’ve taken BG-bound rush hour ‘s in the past. They always seem to have at least some seats available. Whereas, the Flatbush-bound ‘s I’ve taken are almost always standing room only. 

[zacster]

Right now the and run a combined 14tph at rush hour from E180, half from each branch.  If they turned 4 of those at BG that would solve for the missing trains.  I just checked again after writing that first statement, and they indeed turn 4 trains at BG in the peak hour.  This in the AM.   In the PM, there are 10 trains per hour leaving GC towards Brooklyn.  There are 3 trains that start at BG in the PM rush northbound.  The bottom line though is that 10 trains per hour go to/from Brooklyn max, with extras from BG to serve the peak direction to/from the Bronx.

What I don't get is the 20tph on the .  If that is the case, 14tph on the won't work as that'll exceed the 30tph total on the line.

Edited October 21, 2022 by zacster

[mrsman]

On 10/21/2022 at 4:44 PM, zacster said:

Right now the and run a combined 14tph at rush hour from E180, half from each branch.  If they turned 4 of those at BG that would solve for the missing trains.  I just checked again after writing that first statement, and they indeed turn 4 trains at BG in the peak hour.  This in the AM.   In the PM, there are 10 trains per hour leaving GC towards Brooklyn.  There are 3 trains that start at BG in the PM rush northbound.  The bottom line though is that 10 trains per hour go to/from Brooklyn max, with extras from BG to serve the peak direction to/from the Bronx.

What I don't get is the 20tph on the .  If that is the case, 14tph on the won't work as that'll exceed the 30tph total on the line.

I think that speaks to the heart of the problem.  The report will reduce  service from 14 tph to 10 tph, which would not be adequate to service both Nereid and Dyre during rush.

So what to do?   Some adjustments are in order.

 10 tph,  12 tph, [8] 8 tph.  This means This means 30 tph along the 7th Ave express.  22 tph to Flatbush and 8 tph to New Lots. 

 18 tph,  6 tph,  6 tph.  This means 30 tph along the Lexington express.  4 tph  trains will terminate at Bowling Green, allowing 14 pth   to Utica and 12 tph   /    proceeding to New Lots.

The total to New Lots would be 20 tph.  This also means 30 tph for the Bronx line at its busiest point (between Grand Concourse and 3rd Ave).  

The crux for all of this is improving the termination at Flatbush to allow for more trains there.  But it would save construction costs at Rogers Jct.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I really think it makes more sense just to have a single  service with 12 tph running to/from Dyre Avenue. I assume the  mentioned in the previous two posts is the Dyre 5 and the  is the WPR 5. As someone who rode the White Plains Road line most of my life, I don’t really think the line needs 24 tph made up of the ,  and 8. It can certainly use more than it currently has, but not that much more. I think it would be sufficient to run the  and 8 services for a total of 18 tph. The 8 can run peak express alongside the  so that there can still be a Bronx Thru Express from WPR. And it would be a much more consistent service than the current  service is.

[mrsman]

On 10/25/2022 at 8:36 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I really think it makes more sense just to have a single  service with 12 tph running to/from Dyre Avenue. I assume the  mentioned in the previous two posts is the Dyre 5 and the  is the WPR 5. As someone who rode the White Plains Road line most of my life, I don’t really think the line needs 24 tph made up of the ,  and 8. It can certainly use more than it currently has, but not that much more. I think it would be sufficient to run the  and 8 services for a total of 18 tph. The 8 can run peak express alongside the  so that there can still be a Bronx Thru Express from WPR. And it would be a much more consistent service than the current  service is.

Yes.  That could also work.

Conceptually, I believe the goal is to run as many trains on the Manhattan trunks of the IRT express lines and relieve the intermingling at Rogers by having all Flatbush trains running local along Eastern Parkway (and heading to the 7th Ave express), and having New Lots primarily served by Lexington express trains.  Lexington trains have the ability to short-turn at Bowling Green (by traveling along the South Ferry outer loop).  So most 7th Ave trains (2 and 3) will go to Flatbush and the excess 7th Ave trains [8] will continue to New Lots.  The provision of [8] trains heading for New Lots would mean that there would not be as great of a need to send as many Lexington trains there, so some Lexington trains will short-turn, either at Utica or at Bowling Green.

What does this mean for the north end of the lines?  Well, of course, some 7th Ave trains will go to 148th and some Lexington trains will go to Woodlawn and the remaining terminals (Dyre, Nereid, 241) could have some combination of 7th or Lex trains that serve them.  Nothing in the track geomerty along the 149th/Westchester/Southern/Boston Rd portion of the 2/5 line would dictate whether Lex trains or 7th Ave trains go express, and while there is a track preference for Dyre Ave going local, the long-standing practice is Dyre Ave express and WPR local.

With all that being said, one can envision a network that GENERALLY would go as follows, but still allowing some trains to go to alternate terminals on a semi-regular basis if there is some congestion.

 241 - Flatbush

 148 - Flatbush

Nereid - Flatbush

[8]  148 - New Lots

 Woodlawn - Utica (or New Lots)

 Dyre - New Lots (or Bowling Green)

 

[zacster]

I think the main problem with having the 7th Ave trains be the Bronx Express is that the line is much slower in general and would defeat the gain made by the express run.  I very rarely use the subway in the Bronx but the last time I did I aged 2 years on a trip from Pelham Parkway to Times Square on the 2.  I had my bike with me after the Tour de Bronx ride and my friend lived up there and convinced me to ride with her to PP instead of going down to Fordham on the D as I'd planned from the New York Botanical Garden where the ride ended. Big mistake. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

19 hours ago, zacster said:

I think the main problem with having the 7th Ave trains be the Bronx Express is that the line is much slower in general and would defeat the gain made by the express run.  I very rarely use the subway in the Bronx but the last time I did I aged 2 years on a trip from Pelham Parkway to Times Square on the 2.  I had my bike with me after the Tour de Bronx ride and my friend lived up there and convinced me to ride with her to PP instead of going down to Fordham on the D as I'd planned from the New York Botanical Garden where the ride ended. Big mistake. 

I rode the  from Pelham Pkwy to Times Square many times, so I can’t even start to tell you how many years it took off my life. With that said, I do think skipping the seven stops in between East 180th and 3rd Ave, might make some difference, though maybe not as much as taking a  thru express between PP and Grand Central. At least it seemed to whenever the  expresses I rode got sent down 7th Ave. For me, the biggest problem with the WPR  was that its headways were somewhat inconsistent, especially during pm rush. At least an 8 thru express service via 7th Ave would be able to run on more consistent headways. And it would run in addition to the Dyre  express.

 

On 10/27/2022 at 10:31 AM, mrsman said:

What does this mean for the north end of the lines?  Well, of course, some 7th Ave trains will go to 148th and some Lexington trains will go to Woodlawn and the remaining terminals (Dyre, Nereid, 241) could have some combination of 7th or Lex trains that serve them.  Nothing in the track geomerty along the 149th/Westchester/Southern/Boston Rd portion of the 2/5 line would dictate whether Lex trains or 7th Ave trains go express, and while there is a track preference for Dyre Ave going local, the long-standing practice is Dyre Ave express and WPR local.

With all that being said, one can envision a network that GENERALLY would go as follows, but still allowing some trains to go to alternate terminals on a semi-regular basis if there is some congestion.

 241 - Flatbush

 148 - Flatbush

Nereid - Flatbush

[8]  148 - New Lots

 Woodlawn - Utica (or New Lots)

 Dyre - New Lots (or Bowling Green)

 

Sounds like your proposal is to split the 8 service off of the  instead of the  like in the MTA’s proposal. If 148th St can handle 20 tph of the  and 8 services, then yes, you can still have WPR  express service. But I’m not sure 148 can handle more than the current  service because the station is located past a sharp curve and the crossovers are located on the other side of that curve. And there are no tail tracks within the station. So you currently have a similar situation with the  at 148 like how the  and  trains enter and leave Stillwell Ave from their respective platforms. Adding eight more trains per hour at peak might not be feasible.

[mrsman]

7 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I rode the  from Pelham Pkwy to Times Square many times, so I can’t even start to tell you how many years it took off my life. With that said, I do think skipping the seven stops in between East 180th and 3rd Ave, might make some difference, though maybe not as much as taking a  thru express between PP and Grand Central. At least it seemed to whenever the  expresses I rode got sent down 7th Ave. For me, the biggest problem with the WPR  was that its headways were somewhat inconsistent, especially during pm rush. At least an 8 thru express service via 7th Ave would be able to run on more consistent headways. And it would run in addition to the Dyre  express.

 

Sounds like your proposal is to split the 8 service off of the  instead of the  like in the MTA’s proposal. If 148th St can handle 20 tph of the  and 8 services, then yes, you can still have WPR  express service. But I’m not sure 148 can handle more than the current  service because the station is located past a sharp curve and the crossovers are located on the other side of that curve. And there are no tail tracks within the station. So you currently have a similar situation with the  at 148 like how the  and  trains enter and leave Stillwell Ave from their respective platforms. Adding eight more trains per hour at peak might not be feasible.

My proposal isn't to run additional trains to 148th, it is to vary the existing trains at 148th to allow for some to head to Flatbush and some to head to New Lots.  The 148th-New Lots trains will be called [8], and the 148th-Flatbush trains would be called  .   The proposed number of [8] trains plus the proposed number of  trains would be equal to the current number of  trains, at least with respect to the northern terminal.

I think the MTA rightfully recognizes that CBTC would make it easier to run 30 TPH along the 7th Ave express and the Lex express.  They also realize that some realignment of the northern terminals as well as operations around Rogers Jct are needed to accommodate the increased service pattern.  

Let's take another stab.  Northern terminals:

241 St  16 tph

Nereid  7 tph

Dyre  7 tph

Woodlawn  16 tph

148th  4 tph.

148th [8]  10 tph

If the above is planned, you can run  +  +   at 30 tph for the tracks approaching 3 Av/149th.  You can also run 30 TPH on the  +  +  Lex express and the  +  + [8] 7th Ave express.

Then when these trains head to Brooklyn, the track geometries allow for some of the Lexington trains to short turn by way of Bowling Green, so as not to overwhelm the Brooklyn terminals.*  The three existing terminals cannot turn back a combined total of 60 tph, even with improvements.  So we have the following for our southern terminals:

Flatbush  16 tph

Flatbush  4 tph

Utica Ave  16 tph

Bowling Green   4  tph

New Lots  3 tph

New Lots   7 tph

New Lots [8]  10 tph.

This amounts to service every 6 min for Nostrand and Kingston stations, while providing 20 tph to New Lots, 16 tph to Utica, and 20 tph to Flatbush with 4 tph short turning.

 

 

*(I also think that the center track just after Nevins should also be considered as a means to short-turn Lexington trains, so more trains can run to Brooklyn, even if those trains can't run all the way to the terminals.  The busiest segments of most Brooklyn-Manhattan subways are along the east river tunnels, so we want maximum throughput there.)

 

[Benny Kanner]

On 10/31/2022 at 6:42 PM, mrsman said:

My proposal isn't to run additional trains to 148th, it is to vary the existing trains at 148th to allow for some to head to Flatbush and some to head to New Lots.  The 148th-New Lots trains will be called [8], and the 148th-Flatbush trains would be called  .   The proposed number of [8] trains plus the proposed number of  trains would be equal to the current number of  trains, at least with respect to the northern terminal.

I think the MTA rightfully recognizes that CBTC would make it easier to run 30 TPH along the 7th Ave express and the Lex express.  They also realize that some realignment of the northern terminals as well as operations around Rogers Jct are needed to accommodate the increased service pattern.  

Let's take another stab.  Northern terminals:

241 St  16 tph

Nereid  7 tph

Dyre  7 tph

Woodlawn  16 tph

148th  4 tph.

148th [8]  10 tph

If the above is planned, you can run  +  +   at 30 tph for the tracks approaching 3 Av/149th.  You can also run 30 TPH on the  +  +  Lex express and the  +  + [8] 7th Ave express.

Then when these trains head to Brooklyn, the track geometries allow for some of the Lexington trains to short turn by way of Bowling Green, so as not to overwhelm the Brooklyn terminals.*  The three existing terminals cannot turn back a combined total of 60 tph, even with improvements.  So we have the following for our southern terminals:

Flatbush  16 tph

Flatbush  4 tph

Utica Ave  16 tph

Bowling Green   4  tph

New Lots  3 tph

New Lots   7 tph

New Lots [8]  10 tph.

This amounts to service every 6 min for Nostrand and Kingston stations, while providing 20 tph to New Lots, 16 tph to Utica, and 20 tph to Flatbush with 4 tph short turning.

 

 

*(I also think that the center track just after Nevins should also be considered as a means to short-turn Lexington trains, so more trains can run to Brooklyn, even if those trains can't run all the way to the terminals.  The busiest segments of most Brooklyn-Manhattan subways are along the east river tunnels, so we want maximum throughput there.)

 

I propose these stations for the [8]: 

Ⓜ️ Parkchester <8>
Ⓜ️ Saint Lawrence Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Morrison Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Elder Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Whitlock Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Hunts Point Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Longwood Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ East 149th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ East 143rd Street-Saint Mary's Street <8>
Ⓜ️ Cypress Avenue-138th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ Brook Avenue-138th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ 3rd Avenue-138th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ 125th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ 116th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ 110th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ 103rd Street <8>
Ⓜ️ 96th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ 91st Street <8>
Ⓜ️ 86th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ 77th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ 68th Street-Hunter College <8>
Ⓜ️ 59th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ 51st Street <8>
Ⓜ️ Grand Central-42nd Street <8>
Ⓜ️ 33rd Street <8>
Ⓜ️ 28th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ 23rd Street-3rd Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Peter Cooper Village <8>
Ⓜ️ Manhattan Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Humboldt Street <8>
Ⓜ️ Norman Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Lombardy Street <8>
Ⓜ️ Maspeth Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Ten Eyck Street <8>
Ⓜ️ Johnson Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Flushing Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Evergreen Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Broadway-Pulaski Street <8>
Ⓜ️ Lexington Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Jefferson Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Bainbridge Street <8>
Ⓜ️ Bergen Street <8>
Ⓜ️ Lincoln Place <8>
Ⓜ️ Empire Boulevard <8>
Ⓜ️ Clarkson Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Snyder Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Clarendon Road <8>
Ⓜ️ Foster Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Kings Highway <8>
Ⓜ️ Flatlands Avenue <8>
Ⓜ️ Avenue N <8>
Ⓜ️ East 53rd Street <8>
Ⓜ️ Belt Parkway <8>
Ⓜ️ Floyd Bennett Field <8>
Ⓜ️ Riis Landing <8>
Ⓜ️ Beach 147th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ Beach 140th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ Beach 133rd Street <8>
Ⓜ️ Beach 125th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ Beach 116th Street <8>
Ⓜ️ Rockaway Park-Beach 105th Street <8>

[Yankees4life]

@Benny Kannerthere's gotta be a connection at the Junction if you're running the via Flatbush. And also at KP...

[Benny Kanner]

On 2/5/2023 at 1:35 AM, Yankees4life said:

@Benny Kannerthere's gotta be a connection at the Junction if you're running the via Flatbush. And also at KP...

The <8> &  should run via the IRT Utica Avenue Line. 

[Benny Kanner]

IRT Utica Avenue Line: 

The  & <8> should run local on the IRT Utica Avenue Line, while the should run express. The  should terminate at Crown Heights-Utica Avenue. The <8> should terminate at Rockaway Park-Beach 105th Street, while the  should terminate at Flatlands Avenue. 

IRT Nostrand Avenue Line: 

The , , , <15>, (15), <16>, & (16) should run local on the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line, while the  & <9> should run express. The  should terminate at Sheepshead Bay-Emmons Avenue, while the  should terminate at Flatbush Avenue-Brooklyn College. The  should terminate at Gerritsen Beach, while the  should terminate at Bowling Green. The <15> should terminate at Midland Avenue in Staten Island, while the (15) should terminate at Old Town in Staten Island. The <16> should terminate at Tottenville-Finlay Street, while the (16) should terminate at Cunningham Road. The  should terminate at Coney Island-Neptune Avenue, while the  should terminate at Prospect Park. The <9> should terminate at Seagate-Surf Avenue, while the  should terminate at Governors Island.