LGA Link N Train

I saw this a few days ago, and the rationale for each idea is pretty clear. Vanshnook and A320Lga said they're working on a full report so I'm interested to see how that'll look like once its finished. Also, I wonder how many people are aware that there are provisions for X-overs north of 45th Street/4th Avenue. Also, it's pretty obvious that while some of these ideas are very beneficial, they would also be a very hard sell. For the and Trains in this proposal, you could argue that, but then again, the current day Train is leterally a Local Train and the is a local Train, especially when the Manhattan Bridge Reconstruction from 2001-2004 was occuring. I do agree with you on the line though, though I think Vanshnook chose to keep the designation because its been around longer. As for the and via Fulton, the fact that Bed-Stuy and East New York are Gentrifying in addition to 8th Avenue and Queens Blvd CBTC being Implemented/built soon does justify the change since you'd be connecting 3 very busy markets together.

I remember seeing the 1968 plan showing the SAS Bronx Extension overlapping with the near Brook Avenue and 138th Street. Could that have been a potential example of a Cross Platform Transfer between the A and B Divisions?

Well this thread I made in 2017 didn’t age too well. (Even though we’ve only just entered the 2nd month of 2021)

This may seem like an odd speculation but given that the R211’s are CBTC equipped, and QBL is set to get CBTC upgrades within this year (or the next) what if the sent all 460 R211’s to Jamaica, which should boot a majority of 160’s to 207th/Pitkin given that 8th Avenue CBTC is slated to be after QBL (and Culver since that’s a Work In Progress). Basically: Jamaica Yard - R211’s. Most likely, some 160s would be left over. Wouldn’t surprise me if they operated solely on the . 207th/Pitkin - Gets the 160‘s left over from Jamaica in addition to keeping its 179’s. This should be enough to boot whatever 8 car trains are at these 2 yards over to East New York. Coming to think of it, it would’ve been nice if the 179’s came CBTC equipped, but alas that’s not the case. IF we get to the option orders: - Whatever CBTC equipped R211’s that happen to be 4 car sets should go to the Line. I would also say to put them on the but given that the Canarsie Line’s CBTC equipment is different (and outdated?) I don’t think R211’s could run there, at least not yet. - The rest of the 5 car R211’s should (obviously) replace the remaining number of 46’s, that would fill up the and fleets. But then there’s the argument that they could go to the and lines first in anticipation of 8th Avenue, Crosstown and Culver CBTC. But given how well Concourse takes care of their R68 fleet, I doubt that they‘ll touch the line, (with the its a bit more debatable given that its based out of Coney and a part time line). So here’s what I got: - Mix of leftover 46’s, 160’s and 179’s (211 base order only) - R68’s and R68A’s - Mix of 160’s (if any space is left) and the entirety of the R211 base order. - R68’s. (Assuming that the Option orders of the 211’s are supposed to create a fleet expansion, I wouldn’t be surprised if it got any 4 car sets or if it gets anything out of East New York) - R143’s, R60’s and R179’s. (If it gets a piece of the R211 option order, I wouldn’t be surprised if a few 160’s and 179’s got booted to CIY or some other Yard) - R46’, R68’s and R68A’s (The option orders for the R211’s to replace the remainder of the R46’s) MInd you, I did not account for the Shuttles.

440 “normal” cars, correct? Cause I lumped in the 211A and 211T’s together, but given QBL’s service levels, I’d guess it’d make more sense to put them on QBL. Finally, (hopefully) another thing worth fanning on my home line.

This is what I’ve been thinking of the entire time. Like you said, from a practical sense, it makes sense to end the entire base order of R211’s (apart from the ones going to Staten Island Of Course) leaving about 460 cars going to 207th. In my opinion, this might be enough cars to displace all of the 8 car R179’s to either East New York or Coney Island for the , permanently making the Train full length. (Now the 8 car debate is a whole debate in of itself). That should retire all of the R46’s from 207th/Pitkin, and assuming that the could ever get 8 car trains, that’d leave about enough 68’s to run on the and . I’m not going to account for the Option orders and the possibility of the 211T’s being successful as that’s all up in the air at this current moment.

Bringing the topic of Coney Island Capacity over here from the 2nd Avenue Subway thread, I know that signal upgrades (spefically for the and would bring terminal capacity up a little bit), but how feasible (or practical) would it be to do the following? * Expand Coney Island Station by having the EL Structure (the and ) curve immediately after 12th Street. The curve will be widened (going over the W 12 Car Spa) and the easternmost platforms and tracks would be adjusted to have them curve in the eastward direction, doing so would allow for the relocation of X-over interlockings so that they’re located right before trains enter the station. During this time, the train would use the platforms to terminate which Segway’s into my next point. * On the North end of Coney Island, the interlockings would be adjusted to allow for more and Trains to terminate. In addition to that, the possibility of adding 2-4 extra tracks leading straight to Coney Island Yard should be looked at so that and or Trains headed to the yard doesn’t interfere with and service.

Alright then. I was revisiting the RPA’s “Save Our Subways” and looked at their proposed expansions, and I’m over here trying to figure out the rationale behind their Bronx “Extension” of the 2nd Avenue Subway or how such a connection would be feasible in the 1st Place. Only conclusion I can reach is that they want to provide a relief line for the . I think many (if not, all) of us on here agree that RPA’s proposals are rather questionable. https://s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/rpa-org/pdfs/RPA-Save-Our-Subways.pdf - Page 62 is where I can find the most detail on an SAS-Grand Concourse Connection.

@Deucey would anything that was proposed by the Regional Plan Association be counted as an “official” expansion plan or no?

No problem

Concourse and Coney Island Yards AFAIK, take pretty good care of the R68/R68A fleet. Also, sorry to hear that you don’t like the 68’s on the but it is what it is. You also have to remember that while many people may or may not like the SMEE’s (46’s and 68’s) on the , all they care about at the end of the day is that they get from point A to Point B without any issues. And while changing the rollsigns does increase dwell times at Ditmars, it wouldn’t matter that much in the grand scheme of things because the rollsigns are right next to each other. Now don’t even get me started on the layout of the interlockings between Astoria Blvd and Ditmars, that’s a different discussion for a different day. Now for the part I listed in Bold, 8th Avenue is scheduled to receive CBTC Upgrades between 59th Street-Columbus Circle and Jay Street-MetroTech right after Queens Blvd which you can read here: https://www.mta.info/press-release/nyc-transit/mta-moves-forward-signal-modernization-eighth-avenue-ace-line However, because of the pandemic and the budget deficit that the faces (which I personally find to be BS given that they manage to find money for other things) CBTC along 8th Avenue seems to be delayed at the moment. Now personally, I think that Pitkin and 207th should replace every last 46 sitting in those yards, and if there happen to be any surplus sets from the base order, then I’d say send the rest to CIY. I’m not going to mention the Option orders because it’s currently unclear if the will go through with them.

You see the thing is, there are a handful of factors that you need to take into consideration 1. Politics - there are a handful of political factors behind this. Also, given there there are regulations (such as the Environmental Studies and whatnot) that dictate how the line can be constructed, which also inflates the cost of the project. To add insult to the injury, Governor Cuomo would like for the stations to be fancy and have full mezzanines. 2. Given that you seem to be new here, allow me to surprise you with the fact that the is more of a business and real estate corporation who just so happen to manage and operate the Subway, Bus and Commuter Rail network. I’m pretty sure that others here on the forums can elaborate on this point that I just made, so let that sink in. 3. Contractors - The has a history of (how do I put this?) ...hiring contractors who aren’t the most reliable. Can’t name any off the top. Of my head but if you need any examples of what I mean, look at 23rd Street on the and . The amount of time it took (or is taking) to build SAS, the extension and East Side Access. Under an ideal world, $4.5 Billion should’ve given us all 4 Phases of SAS with a 4 track section between 72nd Street and 42nd Street Stations, potential branches from 23rd Street (for alphabet City) and to the Bronx and a cross platform transfer from Grand Street. But alas, I’m only describing a fantasy here. And one last note, I notice that you seem to be repeating a bias that you have as to which equipment should go where. That bias in question being that the and should get the 160’s back from Jamaica once the 211’s arrive. On behalf of everyone here, we understood you the first time, no need to repeat your statement 7-10 times.

https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2021/01/ind-second-system-track-map/ This is the map that @Lawrence St is referring to. The Train proposal that they’re referencing here is listed at the “9th Avenue EL Replacement”

Its sad how the 1968 Program for Action didn't happened as envisoned, given how intriuging it was. Under an ideal world, $4.5 Billion should've accounted for all 4 Phases of the current SAS with a 4 track section between at least 72nd Street and 42nd Street Stations. Not to mention a Bronx extension. But things changed between 1968 and 2021. An LIE Subway would be pretty nice not gonna lie. I think that this proposal shows how we really need to rethink our road networks. It would've actually have been the other way around. to Lareulton (with a new layup Yard where Railroad Park now sits) and the to Hollis. The QBL bypass is a proposal that would be nice. It'd be easier in the to create some rapid transit hybrid service with inner LIRR services. THough interestingly enough, this proposal was brought up briefly in the Sunnyside Yards Redevelopment Plan. https://api.sunnysideyard.nyc/sites/default/files/2020-03/200302_SSY_MPH_Executive Summary_0.pdf. Although with certain rules put forth by the FRA, I don't think this proposal would look the same as originally concevied.

For a minute, I thought the master control was set on the left side (given that I’m a lefty IRL, this would’ve been nice if I ever chose to be a T/O). But keeping it in the middle makes more sense. Now on the overall cab itself, it looks really nice, with the 2 screens (CBTC monitor). Also heard there’s a security camera in the cab but IDRK for sure. It’d be nice to catch foamers who like breaking the law, but I’m not sure how T/O’s would feel about it. Now on the overall design on the rest of the train, the FIND is a huge visual upgrade over that of the 160’s. The LED screen on the side of the Exterior looks a bit weird IMO given the large size of the text. I wonder how/if it’ll be used to describe reroutes/G.O.’s. The face of the train is kinda interesting as well. Reminds me of the facial designs of the Tube and that other train running on the Orange Line? over at the MBTA.

So you mean, like going into the history and logistics and whatnot behind proposals like the IND Program For Action, 1968 Program For Action, One off proposals put forth by government officials, etc.?

Wouldn't this basically be the proposals thread? Or would that discussion be limited to Official Plans put forth by the , NYCTA, the City, State, etc.?

I’ll respond to all parts of your post in the order that you listed them: List of Stations - I understand what you mean by reducing the number of stops. I guess 181st would be a better connection since the Bx36 runs along East 180th Street. Pretty sure another bus runs along that corridor. Don’t remember cause I haven’t been to the Bronx in 5 months. The reason I chose the as opposed to some SAS route was because I have something else in mind for SAS. Happened to make a visualized map of the 1968 Program for Action (which you can see in the previous page or 2 of this thread) and drew the as the Park Avenue line given that SAS was planned to replace the IRT along Dyre and Pelham (north of Hunts Point Avenue). Thus I wanted to leave room for an SAS Bronx extension that could potentially serve an underserved area like Throggs Neck. TBH I’d prefer that over some B Division Pelham replacement. As for branching off 138th, I am proposing tunnels that would bypass 149/Grand Concourse so that would put the current (S-Curve) tunnels out of service. These new tunnels would obviously be wider than the current ones. For the part in bold here - No. For one, if we were to abandon 145th and 148th, that section of Harlem would only be left with bus service and I don’t think that’ll bode well with Harlem Riders. Secondly, while I did support the idea of sending all 7th Avenue Trains to WPR (which still happens in this proposal) and all Lexington Trains up Jerome, that would require a massive expansion of the 149th/Grand Concourse Station to deal with that potential transfer load. Also, while Jerome Avenue could use better service, I don’t think duplicating services would be a good idea. Especially when you have the and under Grand Concourse a few blocks away. With White Plains Road, its different because trains Branch out after East 180th Street whereas Jerome doesn’t have that Luxury. With a (cross platform) Transfer under 3rd Avenue-149th Street, it at least WPR Riders will still have access to Lexington if they choose not to transfer at 149th-Grand Concourse. A Fordham Subway would provide very nice crosstown service for the Bronx, however the problem lMO lies in the geography between Crane Concourse and the University Heights Bridge. For starters, individual transfer stations with the under Jerome and the at Grand Concourse would be too close to each other, and even if you were to build a mega transfer station in that area, it wouldn’t be a desirable place to transfer given that Fordham Road makes a sharp turn between Jerome Avenue and Grand Concourse, and a few sharp turns between Jerome and the University Heights Bridge. You also have to take into account that the area I listed is somewhat of a mountainous region so taking that into account along with the sharp curves, wouldn’t make building a subway desirable. Finally, I have to mention 207th Street. 207th Street is on the opposite end of the University Heights Bridge facing west. And As far as I know, the tunnels that connect the and with 207th Street yard are under 207th. Meaning that a Fordham Subway would have to run beneath those tracks to terminate at Inwood with the , and that would be DEEP. While not impossible, I don’t find building a subway across Fordham Road to be a desirable choice due to geographical reasons. A streetcar or LRT is more plausible for Fordham Road IMO.

So I thought of a proposal that gives 3rd Avenue a long awaited EL replacement (assuming that demand for 1 still exists) while simultaneously reducing the amount of reverse branching that occurs in the Bronx. How about sending the up via 3rd Avenue to Fordham Plaza. Stops (going south) are the following. Fordham Plaza - Transfer to MNRR, Bx12+, Bx15+ 183rd Street Tremont Avenue Clearmont Parkway 169th Street Melrose/Boston Road 156th Street (placed either under Saint Anns Avenue or Brook Avenue) Once the 3rd Avenue Subway (or in this case) reaches 3rd Avenue-149th Street, two options will be proposed: Option 1 - Shallow 3rd Avenue-149th Street. This option would expand 149th Street to 4 tracks and convert the side platforms to Island platforms to allow for a Cross transfer between the (which would replace the on Dyre in this proposal) and . West of the station, new X-Over switches will be built to allow for operational flexibility in case of a delay. This however, might make the S-Curve at 149th Street Junction obsolete. Having the 3rd Avenue EL swing under Brook Avenue after Melrose would be preferable for this option. Note that the will head straight to 138th under both options. Option 2 - Deep 3rd Avenue-149th Street Option. Just like the SAS proposal for Grand Street, the could have a new station and platform underneath the existing station before heading straight to 138th. This would reduce the amount of curves that are made with the running under Saint Anns Avenue after Melrose/Boston Road. In addition, a new Harlem shuttle can be added between 135th and 148th. Which would require expanding 135th. Benefits: 3rd Avenue Finally gets a long awaited Subway Replacement Reverse Branching is reduced on the Bronx End of the IRT Service along the East 180th Junction can be simplified since it’ll just be serving 7th Avenue Services (Shallow 3rd Av-149th) allows for Operational Flexibility. 149th Street-Grand Concourse gets some relief as there will be 2 7th/Lexington Transfer stations instead of 1. Downfalls: WPR and Dyre Avenue Loses direct Lexington Service. Construction could take a while given ’s recent track record. Which raises the question: Would it be cheaper or more effective if a 3rd Party Organization were to build this 3rd Avenue replacement?

Welp, that’s unfortunate.

Wow, I had to go back and reread that thread. Looking back, I see how much I have changed when it comes to posting ideas since I first posted that thread. As much as I’d love to see the RBB be reactivated for rail service (don’t even care if they choose Subway/LIRR anymore), I think I’m getting a better understanding of why its not simple to do so given the costs and politics behind it. If the city could at the very least clean up the Right of Way to allow for the provision of either a rail or trail line, I’d be content with that. But that’s unlikely to happen anytime soon. Also, Don’t know how I managed to get that thread to be 34 pages long, but somehow I did that... Now, I’m no expert when it comes to the Brooklyn Bus Network (that’s mainly cause I was live in Queens), and taken into consideration that everyone else has said further up the thread but 1. the B15 is already long enough as is, I’m not sure about the B83 and B6 since I don’t live in Brooklyn. 2. What is the rationale behind this route? Are you proposing the idea just for the fun of it?

Unless there was a news source attached in relation to the line, I don’t see why this deserved its own thread? I’d redirect this here:

1. Yes. The flying junction was a part of the plan, I just decided to display an express service using it. Whatever service would’ve ran up there would be anyone’s guess at this point. 2. Nope. The original plan was supposed to have a stop at 99th Street. Junction Blvd would be too close to Woodhaven Blvd and while I agree with having a stop on 108th Street, I don’t know why it wasn’t considered, maybe it would’ve been too close to 99th.

In the map, I have it displayed as running Express. But its anyones guess as to how that would've turned out had the LIE Proposal gotten to the construction stage

Not sure if I should put this here or in the random thoughts thread, but I made a map of what the 1968 Program for Action would've looked like had the fiascial crisis of 1975 never happened. Coming to think of it, most of these plans were only feasible for their time: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/1/edit?mid=17Skn9jKS7hkW5-T7-5KEu5sYHELi5__x&usp=sharing A little side note is that I used the current day nomenclature that the uses to avoid any confusion.