Wallyhorse

Couldn't the have been extended to Borough Hall? At least there, you could transfer to the at Court Street. Also, I'd have had some and trains end at Brooklyn Bridge if possible and used City Hall loop to turn.

That little thing called Astoria NIMBYs.

Adding: I didn't realize in the Vanhookraggan proposal there would be new switches south of 36th Street. With that in mind, here's how I would do it: The current is moved to Nassau as originally proposed as the "Brown "/"Bankers Special" /, running from 95th-Canal Street (Canal on the / rebuilt as previously noted with scheduled yard runs in-service extended from and to Broadway Junction on the / and late nights and weekends extended from and to Metropolitan Avenue, absorbing the late-night and weekend shuttles) as I would expect some pols to still want those south of 36th Street to be able to reach the local stations north of there on 4th Avenue as a one-seat ride, especially those looking to transfer at 9th Street-4th Avenue for the and specifically. The also starts at 95th Street and runs to Bedford Park Boulevard (rush hours) or 145th Street (all other times except late nights), 4th Avenue local to 36th Street, then express via 4th Avenue (skips DeKalb) and then its current route except for also being express on Central Park West (with the and both running local on CPW). Late nights, the would terminate at West 4th with the running local on 6th Avenue. The remains where it is as the West End Local The remains as is and runs Coney Island via Sea Beach to Astoria at all times, however, signal boxes are put in southbound at 5th Avenue-59th Street and 57th Street-7th Avenue so the can run switch to the express track southbound/stay on the express track northbound to 57th Street instead of switching north of 34th is local via Montegue as it is now late nights. The remains where it is as the Brighton Local. The goes to 71st-Continental, running as follows: All Times except late nights: Brighton Express, running from Brighton Beach to Ditmars Boulevard via Brighton Express, the Montague Tunnel, lower Manhattan and Broadway local. Late Nights: 34th Street, Times Square or 57th Street to 71st-Continental. This allows the to go back to being a QBL express at all times. This to me can also work.

If it makes more sense to have the and on the opposite terminals, so be it. You could keep the express in Brooklyn, but the idea is the except for the very southern portion in Brooklyn would be what was the until 1987, running 4th Avenue and Broadway local to Astoria if the goes there while the runs Whitehall-71st with overflow trains running as noted. That said, if you can put in a switch at 59th Street (something that is badly needed there) which allows whatever is running to 95th Street to go to the express or local track south of 59th Street, then putting a 6th Avenue train makes more sense and in fact, I have in the past suggested running the to 95th-Bay Ridge in place of the (traditionalists be dammed and some of them were quite upset when I brought this part up before), with the becoming the Brighton local to Astoria and the going back to being to 71-Continental as an express north of 59th (and the not moving to the local track on Broadway and installing what is necessary to allow the to come in from 60th on the express track at 57/7 with the and switching yards). In this scenario, the would return to being the West End local as it was in the past and return to being 24/7 while the becomes the full-time Brighton Express from 96th-2nd to Brighton Beach at all times.

That may be true, but Cuomo is no longer the Governor and Cuomo's "yes men" now have to answer to Kathy Hochul and by 2023 may be answering to someone else as Governor (assuming Cuomo doesn't try to get the Governorship back and is successful doing so). Perhaps with Cuomo gone and a new Governor in place they would be more open to doing something like re-activating the northbound platforms at Canal and Bowery, which would allow the with the way Canal is now set up and with both platforms at Canal back in operation able to terminate at Canal free and clear of the and , eliminating the need to use Essex as a terminal for a brought-back "Bankers Special" /"Brown "/ As I would do it, the as the full Broadway and 4th Avenue Local (59th in Brooklyn to Lexington and 60th in Manhattan) would become the full-time train to Forest Hills (including overnights, allowing the to return to operating as an express on QBL at all times) while the operates 24/7 from (mainly) Whitehall to Astoria (late nights, the can operate as a shuttle from 34th Street-Astoria if necessary since the and both would be local in the overnights in Manhattan with overflow trains ending and beginning at Bay Parkway or 9th Avenue on the if necessary). This would have it: "Brown "//: 95th Street-Canal Street / station via Montague and Nassau with scheduled yard runs that end and begin at Broadway Junction on the and and are extended there. Late nights and weekends, extended via Nassau, Broadway-Brooklyn and Myrtle EL to Metropolitan Avenue station, absorbing and eliminating the current shuttles that operate during those times. : Broadway/4th Avenue local Coney Island to 71st-Continental via Montague and QBL : Same as now : Ditmars Boulevard to Whitehall Street at all times (possibly except late nights when trains would end and begin at 34th Street), overflow trains would end and begin either at 9th Avenue or Bay Parkway on the . This to me would fix a lot of the problems with the moved to a much shorter route (at peak hours in particular) on the Nassau line.

Not surprising. It has to be remembered the reason the WTC was built in the first place was to revitalize The Financial District, which was looked at as dying in the early 1960's as it was virtually a ghost town after 3:00 PM (stock market used to only be open from 10:00 AM-3:00 PM back then). Hardly anyone lived there back then and the area was nothing like it is now.

Yep: Those Astoria NIMBYs, who IMO know they have children/grandchildren looking to sell those houses as soon as they die and such are already counting on big bucks from that they fear might not be there if an EL extension is built out of fear those "not their kind" will show up in droves and drive property values down and their not being able to "cash in" and be able to get tons of "bling." BTW, that design you showed is very similar to what I would be using for a rebuilt 3rd Avenue EL in Manhattan, except that would likely be as I would do it as four-tracked, two-level line (except at Chatam Square for instance and with a few spots where it is three tracks across on one level to allow for switches and so forth). Such a line would be very quiet in part because I would be building such to withstand a storm twice the strength of Sandy.

Obviously I meant Randalls, not Roosevelt Island on this.

Obviously I meant Randalls Island on this.

Posted what I would now do in SAS discussion since it would in this case involve having a branch of the SAS run to LGA.

Now that Gov. Hochul has ditched the LGA Air Train: I suspect what should be done is instead of the AirTrain would be a portion of what perhaps would be "Phase 2A" of the SAS that can be the LGA branch, turning off from the main route at 116th Street (116th Street Station on 2nd Avenue can be just north of 116th to 119th Street to allow for this) and making a stop on 116th Street either from 1st-2nd Avenue (possibly with a transfer point between the two stations) or if it's deep enough between 1st and Pleasant Avenue (there actually is a major shopping center next to the FDR Drive from 116th-117th Streets whose patrons in many cases would use such a stop if it had an entrance at Pleasant Avenue), then continuing underground to Roosevelt Island with a stop at Ichan Stadium and a second stop on Roosevelt Island before going elevated to Queens and through mostly non-residential areas of northern Queens to LGA, stopping first at the long-term parking facility and then at the various terminals.

One major difference though: In a rebuild of the area that un-abandons the northern platforms at Canal Street and Bowery, you can have the come in from Chambers and use the inner tracks at Canal to terminate, something you could NOT do in the old setup. In the old setup, there was a crossover at the south end of the Canal Street Station that only allowed for trains coming off the Willy B to terminate at Canal, something that would not be there in this version. Generally, in this setup except for some trains during peak periods, the would terminate on what currently is the northbound track that would go back to being the southbound "express" track (the would go back to being on the old northbound track with both the east and west platforms being used at Canal and Bowery) and would start back on that track. And this would be the only train as it would no longer serve Broadway at all (moving full-time to Nassau running the old "Bankers Special" route from 95th but to Canal Street 24/7). would be moved to the tunnel and serve lower Manhattan on the Broadway line as the full-time Broadway local (and actually double service to/from Jay-Metrotech and Court Street). In this format, the on Nassau would return to being a 24/7 line, actually extended to Metropolitan Avenue in the overnights and on weekends, absorbing the late night and weekend shuttles in that scenario (unless it happens to be a weekend the is running to 96th/2nd, then the would terminate at Canal Street). This would originate out of East New York with trains on yard runs beginning and ending at Broadway Junction, extended there in both directions and would be scheduled that way. While I agree, the current would disagree with you IMO. That's why I propose having the run the old "Bankers Special" except it would be a 24/7 line that would begin and end on the northern part at a rebuilt Canal Street Station (the east/northbound platforms at Canal Street and Bowery being re-activated) with this ending at Canal Street (except nights and weekends when it would be extended to Metropolitan) and the / ending at Chambers 24/7. The as I would do it would mainly be Whitehall-Astoria as it is now with the replacing the as the Broadway local from Brooklyn, but with overflow trains running to Bay Parkway or 9th Avenue on the with Coney Island Yard as its base.

Wanted to add: As I would do it, only overflow trains would terminate at Bay Parkway or 9th Avenue (all yard runs would end and begin at Bay Parkway), and that would ONLY be where there more trains than Whitehall can handle termimating. That could be alievated, however by setting up where at Whitehall, the southbound T/O of a train ASAP after terminating and so forth walks up to the north end of the station while the T/O of the prior S/B train, gets ready to go AQAP and as soon as both the T/O who brought the train into Whitehall is out and walking on the platform to the north end while the T/O who is operating that train northbound is ready to go, that train departs and the cycle is repeated for all subsequent trains, limiting the number of trains that have to go to 9th Avenue or Bay Parkway to terminate. The bulk of the s would terminate at Whitehall.

Yeah, but we are talking about an emergency weekend night situation.

Sorry, have not been on for a bit: As I would do it, the would be unchanged except it would go local after coming in off the Manhattan Bridge at Canal Street. If need be, the can return to being the QBL local while the becomes the full-time Astoria local (with at certain times, a limited number of trains running express in Manhattan and running via 63rd Street to/from 36th Street in Queens and running QBL local otherwise). The in this scenario can run to 71-Continental 24/7, allowing the to return to being an express train or running as a second local late-nights.

The way I now would do it would have the split like this: The current Canal Street and Bowery / stations would go back to having both platforms open as it was prior to 2004 or so (the old northbound platforms worked on and rehabbed for this). This would allow the coming from Chambers to terminate at Canal Street on the northbound "express" track, then relay to what would become the southbound "express" track to begin the other way, esentially running the old "bankers special" / route in this case between 95th Street and Canal (which used to actually be a terminal for some trains back in the day), eliminating the issue of using Essex Street for a terminal (late nights, the would be extended to Metropolitan Avenue to replace the while there would also be in-service yard runs on this from and to Broadway Junction). These tracks at Canal and Bowery could also be used by the / in an emergency situation as well this way. The becomes the full-time Broadway Local to Astoria, running from either the 9th Avenue or Bay Parkway station with some trains terminating at Whitehall as they do now. There would be a same platform transfer anywhere between 36th Street and Court Street for those on the looking for the Broadway line stations in lower Manhattan.

What they should do there is a full rebuild where the line goes back to two tracks and 600' stations. This would allow as I would it for a future connection that I would want to do with the existing portion of the old Myrtle Avenue EL (including rebuilding the upper level of Myrtle-Broadway with all platforms becoming 600') for what would be a Myrtle-Brighton line that would run from Metropolitan Avenue to Coney Island with the as locals on Brighton full-time while the becomes a full-time express to/from Brighton Beach (extended nights/weekends to CI), for this new line I would call a "Black " train including rebuilding a small portion of the old Myrtle El with likely Tompkins Avenue the one stop from the old line included in this rebuild and then the line meeting up with the current Franklin Avenue Shuttle and absorbing that line as part of this.

Which is exactly how I would do the via the SAS via a new Schermerhorn Street tunnel that would either come into the Transit Museum at Fulton or if that is not possible go into the unused platform/track at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and be the Fulton local to Euclid (extended late nights to Lefferts when the is not running as the would go to Lefferts) while the exclusively serves the Rockaways.

Though they could build a new 14th street station in the express tunnel (there are provisions for this) to accomodate that. As for an SAS/Williamsburg connection, you could have the turn teal and run on the SAS with the return of the from 2nd Avenue-71st and Continental. Another option is to rebuild Essex Street into five tracks, including two terminal tracks and set it up so the runs on the SAS (with the becoming a bi-direction rush hour train running its current route but non-skip stop), the runs as it does now and the turns brown and runs from 95th-Essex (with yard runs to Broadway Junction that are in service) at all times and late nights replaces the between Essex and Metropolitan Avenue. As part of such, all stations along Nassau and Broadway-Brooklyn to Metropolitan and at least Broadway Junction are extended to 600 feet.

And I would have the do it where it would run via a new tunnel that would connect to what currently is the Transit Museum at Court Street and from there come in on the currently-unused local track/platform at Hoyt-Schermerhorm and go from there to Euclid. That would allow the to become the full-time Lefferts line (except late nights when the would be extended there) while the becomes the full-time Rockaway line split likely 4/3 between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park (at peak probably 8 TPH to Far Rockaway and 6 TPH to Rockaway Park).

It's not a legit source: The Buffalo Chronicle as I remember was outed to being a very right-wing source. Someone last year on Twitter linked to an article from it about a mobster who was going to make it so Trump won easily by talking about things allegedly done but turned out as I remember to be a fake article. That said, Phase 2 does need to be extended across 125 if possible to a terminal at Broadway that would allow transfers to ALL of the other lines on 125 and should also include a connection to the 8th Avenue and Concourse lines just west of what would be 125/St. Nicholas, likely where such a connection would involve connection to the tracks between the express and local north of 125. Such would mainly be for G.O.'s but also could be used for some special event trains to Yankee Stadium or in the future could allow for a Concourse/8th Avenue train to 168 or 207 in Manhattan or 205 in the Bronx via Broadway and the SAS for example (or THAT be a future SAS to The Bronx).

The World Trade Center one could have been done in 1966 when constuction on the complex started (and especially when the Singer Tower was torn down in 1967) by redoing the area north of Cortlandt Street to where the WTC tracks from the continued onto the Cortlandt Street portion of the Montague Street line and severed the Broadway connection, with City Hall becoming the terminal it was originally intended to be and the lower level of City Hall on the being finished and used full-time (or found a way to keep that connect AND allow trains from Chambers-WTC to connect to the Montague/4th Avenue line). Then, and especially if you also rebuilt what became the Culver shuttle into full-time use (in necessary using a flyover and building an upper level of Ditmas Avenue for northbound trains), you could have an alternate way for the to reach the Culver Line when G.O.s where necessary and also resume having a full-time line on Culver from 4th Avenue. Maybe in that scenario, you could have had the run from 95th-Bay Ridge to Jamaica Center as it does now as the main 4th Avenue local and moved the elsewhere.

Any use of Court Street for the SAS would have to be in all likelihood to connect the SAS to the Fulton Street line, with such coming in on the unused track and platform at Hoyt-Schermerhorn with the going to Euclid Avenue (and as I would do it, extended late nights to Lefferts). This would allow the and to both operate express on Fulton with the becoming the Lefferts Line (replaced late nights by the and the being split full-time between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park, replacing the Rockaway Park except possibly late nights. I had previously proposed moving the SAS south of 23rd to 1st Avenue the way the 2nd Avenue EL was, which among other things would allow for a Culver line on SAS to join the line after Houston Street (transfer there to the to the 1st Avenue side of the 2nd Avenue station) and go with the to at least Church Avenue and more likely Kings Highway, with one line becoming the express line between Bergen and Church and the lower level of Bergen re-opened for this purpose.

Two weeks must be the record for not having a new post in this thread.

Agree on upgrading the Eastern Division, with the big one lengthening all platforms to at least 600 feet, and also in some cases consolidating stations and if necessary moving the Marcy Avenue station to where it can allow for three tracks past there going towards Manhattan with a merge after that, allowing express trains to skip Marcy going express. I would also rebuild the upper level of Myrtle Avenue as part of a much bigger rebuild there that would be done to allow for a short stretch of the old Myrtle Avenue EL to be rebuilt (with a stop at Tompkins Avenue on the old line) before going to Bedford-Nostrand for a transfer to the and then running along a Franklin Avenue line rebuilt all the way to two tracks and 600' stations that would then serve as one of two Brighton locals to Coney Island as the Myrtle-Brighton line that I would do as a "Black " between Coney Island and Metropolitan Avenue (this would absorb the existing Franklin shuttle). I suspect it would be cost-prohibitive to do the kind of subway you would want to replace the Broadway-Brooklyn-Jamaica El. What I would do there is build an SAS connection to the Willamsburg Bridge and as part of that perhaps if possible rebuild Essex Street to four and even five tracks that would allow for a new line between Essex and south Brooklyn (maybe a 24/7 version of the old "Bankers Special" (later "Brown " that ran until 1987) .