Wallyhorse

Adding: The only way I can see the M15 being deleted (or cut back at all) is if we ever have BOTH a full SAS AND a fully rebuilt 3rd Avenue EL that would between them take enough traffic off the M15 to warrant cutting the M15 back. THAT is how busy the M15 is.

Would there be a way to make 36th an express station (even if you had to be an entirely new level under the existing station)? I would think that would solve a lot of these issues.

This is about the regular riders mainly. As this became the norm, they would know outside of overnights, the would have two distinct services: Via the Bridge, it would be express as it is now (skipping DeKalb and so forth). Via the Tunnel, it would be local with the and also run via the tunnel and 4th Avenue Local in Brooklyn to 9th Avenue on the and short-turn there. You could for the " via Tunnel" use another letter if necessary to avoid any potential confusion, The replaces the from Whitehall to 71st-Continental (with during peak hours some trains ending and beginning on the tunnel level of Canal Street using the lower level City Hall tracks to turn around) and becomes a 19/7 line. This is about simplifying Broadway as much as possible otherwise while moving the to Nassau and giving Bay Ridge-area politicians what they seem to want, and that is effectively a split that shows up on 4th Avenue without nearly the delays it often has now. The route on Nassau I would have would basically have the and / split from 95th-Bay Ridge to Archer Avenue with southbound Canal (the terminal) being the main transfer point between the lines southbound while northbound Chambers (the / terminal) being the transfer point between the two (plus a limited number of / trains operating from and to Broad during rush hours and some trains doing in-service yard runs from and to Broadway Junction on the /).

Exactly, EVEN WITH THE SAS, the M15 is one of the most heavily used bus routes in the entire city (and I grew up often riding the M15 up and down 1st and 2nd Avenue). The M31 on York Avenue I believe was finally extended all the way across 57th Street in the 90s to help take some ridership off the M15 as I remember especially on 57th many people transferring from the M28 (the actual 57th Street crosstown) to the M15 in particular (previously, the M31 went across 61st Street to Lexington and ended at 59th and Lex). The M15 isn't going anywhere.

Actually, as I was writing this, I came up with an easier solution: Since obviously the needs more service to Astoria, what can be done is this: trains beyond capacity at Whitehall would end on the tunnel level of Canal Street and turn there to go back to 71-Continental (as that would be the terminal on the north end in Queens, the would also become a 19/7 line with the switch to 71-Continental and be based out of Jamaica as the currently is). The in this format would have all trains go to Astoria going north while going south: There would be trains running via the Bridge from and to Stillwell as has always been the case. There would also be additional service that would run via the tunnel, short-turn to 9th Avenue on the and terminate and begin there. The main purpose of this is getting the off of Broadway which would make it easier for the other lines and also placate politicians in Bay Ridge who wanted the split to help with the issues at Bay Ridge (shortening the to where it would run via Nassau to Canal on the / (with in-service yard runs from and to Broadway Junction on the /) would placate such pols and such an can also be simply extended to Metropolitan nights and weekends and absorb the current night and weekend shuttles. This would likely have to share service with select trains from 36th to the split in the tunnel at Montague, but it would be far fewer trains in such an interline than now (and on Nassau, this would only interline with a handful of trains that would be extended from and to Broad Street during rush hours as otherwise, it would be set up where going north at Chambers, the would be waiting for the to come in where those going north of Canal can make a simple, cross-platform transfer there with the then departing and after that the crosses over to where most of the time, it terminates on what currently is the northbound track of what used to be the "southbound terminal/express" track at Canal (though such goes first if it is continuing past Canal on a yard run to Broadway Junction or nights and weekends or in an emergency to Metropolitan if the for some reason is out outside of nights and weekends). Southbound, the would be waiting for the to come in to do the cross-platform transfer for those going south of Chambers or continuing to Brooklyn with that leaving and then the following (including any such that are doing a rush-hour run to and from Broad Street).

While not necessarily related to this, this is one reason why I would put in the work to get the abandoned portions of Canal Street and Bowery up to snuff and set up Canal Street to be the terminal it once was for trains coming off the Willy B (back when the "express" tracks actually ended at Canal and there was a crossover at the south end of the station). In this case, it would be where the becomes brown and moves permanently to Nassau, running 19/5 between 95th-Bay Ridge and Canal Street (with scheduled in-service yard runs from and to Broadway Junction on the as this would be based out of East New York yard) and nights and weekends extended to Metropolitan Avenue, absorbing the current night and weekend shuttles. The would in this be shortened to Chambers Street (though during peak hours there would be runs from and to Broad Street to supplement this version of the that would be a max of 8-10 TPH). That to me would go a long way to straighten out the mess on Broadway as the can become full-time between Whitehall and 71-Continental (possibly with half of the trains starting at 9th Avenue on the and yard runs from and to Stillwell via the ) while enough trains are added to properly cover Astoria.

I actually think eventually if everything gets built up as was proposed pre-pandemic and things are close otherwise to where they were pre-pandemic, I suspect we would eventually need BOTH an SAS AND rebuilt 3rd Avenue EL to handle the additional traffic in Manhattan, especially with congestion pricing coming in. I doubt even with the SAS if the 3rd Avenue EL had stayed it would have been eventually torn down. What likely WOULD have happened IMO is the line would have undergone two full rebuilds: One in the 1960's to bring the line up to the then-standards weight-wise (with stations consolidated considerably and most likely as I noted with the exception of 60th-63rd being 59th-60th initially and the other after 9/11 to strengthen the line further to allow for NTT trains (and likely CBTC). Today, that likely also would likely be a major tourist attraction because many would also use the line for sightseeing.

2nd Avenue EL is no longer needed as the SAS (even just half) is enough for now. The 3rd Avenue EL is something I have discussed at length in other threads. I have always said if that had been kept, I suspect the South Ferry branch would have been kept intact but what was the Park Row branch would first have moved to Chambers Street and then with the opening of the World Trade Center become the WTC branch, likely terminating around Cortlandt and Church Street with transfers there to the and there. Then in the '80s I suspect as Battery Park City was being built up that branch would have been extended further to likely include an underground yard built as that was being built up and where such going railroad south actually after going on Church Street/Trinity Place and Battery Place turns north briefly to a terminal at West Thames Street. The main line becomes the Battery Park City branch as route and besides those stops at also stop at Battery Place/Greenwich Street\ and Chambers/Centre/Lafayette (Transfer to / before going on Worth Street to Bowery/Chatham Square. The South Ferry Branch that would be route stops would be mainly Fulton Street/Pearl Street and Dover Street/Pearl Street before it joined the Battery Park City branch at Chatham Square with the serving as the peak direction express (or express if four tracks, and if four tracks most likely on two levels). Stops after that would be Grand Street (MetroCard/OMNY Transfer to ), Kenmare Street (Transfer to ), Houston Street (local only, MetroCard/OMNY transfer to ), St. Mark's Place (local only), 14th Street (Transfer to ) , 23rd Street (local only), 34th Street (local only), 42nd Street (Transfer to ), 53rd Street (Transfer to ) , 60th-63rd Street (Transfer at 60th to and 63rd to that I see being the busiest station on the line), 72nd Street (local only), 79th Street (local only), 86th Street (MetroCard/OMNY transfers to at Lexington Avenue and at 2nd Avenue), 96th Street (local only), 106th Street (local only), 116th Street (local only) and 125th Street (MetroCard/OMNY transfers to at Lexington Avenue). The Bronx stops on such would be 138th Street (Transfer to ), 149th Street (Transfer to ) , 161st Street, Claremont Parkway (local only), Tremont Avenue, 181st Street (local only), Fordham Road, Bedford Park Boulevard, 210th Street and Gun Hill Road (Transfer to ). Myrtle Avenue EL as I noted above I would do with the stops considerably consolidated from the old line and going underground and joining the Montague Line after Navy Street going railroad north, joining the line at Jay-Metrotech and this become the to Astoria. The Culver Line I would reconnect going where necessary with two levels of single track (Manhattan Bound upper level, Coney Island bound lower level) that would include connecting to the current Culver line at Ditmas, rebuilding what was the shuttle track going southbound (and connecting to the main line south of the station) while northbound at Ditmas being on a new upper level before crossing above the existing tracks continuing railroad north to the 4th Avenue Line at 9th Avenue lower level and then re-joining the Broadway line. This could serve as a new Broadway line on Culver. Obviously, it's unlikely any of this ever happens, but it is how if I had the chance to would do it.

Maybe it's time the MTA considered having the 's PM rush hour run from 2:00-5:30 PM or so to reflect ridership?

As SHOULD be the case. Some people fail to realize the is not responsible for every action that happens, especially those who as you said seem to have a death wish.

This is similar to what I would do for a rebuilt Bronx 3rd Avenue EL (or subway) IF such were connected to the SAS. You have the stops more spread out as I would do it for the most part, including key transfers at 138 (for the ) and 149 (for the /).

The one notable thing about that is the would likely have to late nights in this go to Penn Station-34th Street (skipping Spring and 23rd Street) because of the way the layouts are and where the tracks are. Canal Street could be done as a terminal as well more easily.

If 63rd is delayed, this other project that is supposed to knock out the between Church Avenue and Stillwell that is already drawing fury for not including shuttle buses may be why.

Interesting: They could have more simply split the into two, running from 34-205 AND as a "Yellow " from Stillwell-96th Street-2nd Avenue, much like the was back in the '80s and as I remember again late 1990's-early 2000s during Manhattan Bridge construction. The in this scenario could have been from Stillwell-Prospect Park only. And speaking of this G.O., this is another reason why I'd rebuild the Franklin shuttle back to two tracks and 600' platforms. That would allow in a scenario like this the to go to Franklin Avenue and allow connections to the (and late nights). You could then perhaps also have the Franklin operate full-time between Franklin Avenue and Stillwell.

Couldn't they have just had the run normal and have the go to 179 with if necessary some trains terminate at Parsons on the as Parsons-Archer on the and is a bit of a distance from Hillside Avenue?

It was a parking garage that collapsed: https://pix11.com/news/local-news/manhattan/parking-garage-collapses-in-lower-manhattan/

It is odd that at 125 the comes in in what would be the "express" spot otherwise. I suspect when the original setup was done, the thought was to have the express lines run straight through to Pelham (if you look, the express track north at 125 allows for that). One thing the setup does do is allow the and to access the Pelham line if necessary.

If you were to do a 1st Avenue infill station, you could maybe do it at 60th Street for the OR 63rd Street (which is already deep) for the . Such then could be done between 1st and York Avenues.

The two center tracks I believe are used to terminate trains at Chambers when either the or terminate there.

If anything, I would look to go to 12 cars on the and do the necessary work to allow for stations to have 12-car trains.

This to me is another argument to move the to Nassau and make it a "Brown ," running it from 95th Street to a rebuilt Canal Street (abandoned platforms at Canal and Bowery on Nassau would be re-activated) where the would terminate on weekdays (with scheduled in-service yard runs from and to Broadway Junction as this would be based out of East New York). Late nights and weekends, this would replace the shuttles and run Metropolitan-95th, making this a regular line. The can become full-time to replace the in Manhattan and Queens to 71st-Continental.

They could likely add employee restrooms and other such necessary facilities there for example. The main purpose is to be able to have a short-turn location for the that clearly has most of it's passengers north/west of that point. Obviously those issues you cite would have to be addressed as part of this and would be part of any rebuild obviously that would allow Atlantic to return to being a six-track station (with two of the tracks being terminal/storage tracks).

This is why I would rebuild Atlantic Avenue on the to the six-track station it once was (and there is enough structure from the old setup left to do that). In this case, the former Snediker Avenue platform would be rebuilt to serve as terminal/storage tracks, allowing for short-turn runs from there while the four-track structure would go back to actually being four tracks, also allowing for short-turn trains to terminate there OR have the start there with perhaps a "Brown " run from Canarsie on the old route to Chambers for example so the can serve the much busier portion of the line more efficiently.

I would take it much further and rebuild with 10-car platforms, including if necessary rebuilding Park Place to where they are on two levels. This would in an emergency or if there is a GO allow the and/or to run to Franklin Avenue and I would also be doing it as part of a longer-term project to create a new Myrtle-Brighton line that I would do as a "Black " train that connects the existing portion of the Myrtle El with the Brighton line via rebuilding a short stretch of the old EL south of Myrtle (and the upper level of Myrtle-Broadway with all existing Myrtle EL stations rebuilt to handle 600' trains) with most likely a stop at Tompkins Avenue) and then running additional track between where it would turn off the old Myrtle route and reaching the current Franklin shuttle line (including a stop with a transfer to the at Bedford-Nostrand). As part of this I would also build a connection to the Broadway-Brooklyn line at Myrtle coming from the newly built line that in an emergency the and could use to get to Manhattan (with as part of that lengthening Myrtle-Broadway and all stations on the Broadway-Brooklyn line between there and Essex to 600' platforms).

If anything, I'd be looking to do any / extension where both go to Howard Beach-JFK (running above the existing Rockaway Beach Branch tracks used the ) also stopping at Aqueduct-North Conduit and if possible Aqueduct Racetrack before that. This would potentially allow for both lines to go there at all times.