GreeneggsnPelham Posted October 8, 2011 Share #1 Posted October 8, 2011 Hey All, Finally completed my chaining distances project after two years, with the help of friends from NYCTA, BVE, Trainz and a whole host of others. All of these lengths have been visually verified using signal plates at all of the stations; the IND sections (minus the to the Rockaways and to Far Rockaway) were found thanks to a post from Joe O'Neill on these forums a few years ago. The IRT & BMT sections were done with the help of all the photos on nycsubway.org, BStyles, BVE developers, and a very dedicated friend from the Bronx who took it upon himself to fan the , , , , and in three days just to help me complete the project. Thanks Angel! Seriously, without that dedication, this project would be floundering. I hope this helps those Trainz/BVE developers with their station spacing (it does for me), and I'm glad that I can give something back to the RF community. Zach thinks I'm crazy for being so focused on signals and their distances--- Consider this another little nugget of gold for those of us who cannot get enough of the subway! Link: NYCTA Chaining FULL 2011 Thanks and Enjoy! -A :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubwayGuy Posted October 8, 2011 Share #2 Posted October 8, 2011 Good - I haven't used bve in several years but i remember that the station distances seemed to be real screwed up and the running times as a result were very lacking in realism. Hopefully once the distances are properly sorted out (and timetables too), then hopefully someone can work on the train because the vast majority of them are too fast and missing a good deal of realism as to how they handle and the appearance of their cabs. The best one, IMO is the R-1 but the brakes react WAY quicker than any arnine in real life, and the train lacks the electric hold position (although I doubt there's a way to code that in). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokkemon Posted October 9, 2011 Share #3 Posted October 9, 2011 Cool stuff. Why did the IND choose such an illogical chaining system? Why not just make zero at W4 St? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Vandelay Posted October 9, 2011 Share #4 Posted October 9, 2011 The IND chaining system only holds true for IND A(the 8th Ave line) IND B(6th Ave) is tied to IND A at Jay, and is (as is seen in this link) notably offset from IND A by W4. I do have three chaining related questions though. For the parts of IND D (Queens Blvd) and IND B (Culver) where the expresses separate from the locals to follow a more direct path, which end is the chaining tied to? Also, which side is the Hammels Wye track tied to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamaica Line Posted October 9, 2011 Share #5 Posted October 9, 2011 Wow dude. That's some dedication. :tup: Good - I haven't used bve in several years but i remember that the station distances seemed to be real screwed up and the running times as a result were very lacking in realism. Hopefully once the distances are properly sorted out (and timetables too), then hopefully someone can work on the train because the vast majority of them are too fast and missing a good deal of realism as to how they handle and the appearance of their cabs. The best one, IMO is the R-1 but the brakes react WAY quicker than any arnine in real life, and the train lacks the electric hold position (although I doubt there's a way to code that in). True. There's no way a m/m can start braking one hundred ft before the marker at forty-five mph with a 68 and stop right on the marker (except for TwoTimer ). As for the R1s, there are only two braking positions? Full Service and EMG Service? What is the purpose of the LAP position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubwayGuy Posted October 9, 2011 Share #6 Posted October 9, 2011 As for the R1s, there are only two braking positions? Full Service and EMG Service? What is the purpose of the LAP position? Hahaha...well as someone who hasn't played BVE in years, I can answer that based on actual train operation. Disclaimer: it's more complicated than you might think. You've been warned... R1-9's (and much of prewar subway equipment) had braking schedule AMUE - Automatic, Motorcar, and UE referring to the Universal valve underneath the car (in the case of an R1, it's a UE-5 universal valve). In terms of practical operation, that left several detents in the brake stand for a motorman to use (in order from "left" to "right"): -Release -Electric Hold -Lap -Apply (Service) -Emergency I will explain them in the order that makes the most sense, which is different than the order they are actually in. -Emergency - puts the train's brakes in emergency (BIE). -Release - releases the brakes gradually. Also charges the brake system with air (puts air in the brake pipe). -Apply - applies the service brake. Allows air gradually to flow into the brake cylinder, which causes the train brakes to actually apply. The longer the brake handle is held in this position, the more air is allowed to flow into the brake cylinder - meaning that the longer the brake handle is held in this position, the greater the stopping force applied to the train will be. In addition, the "apply" position causes the air in the brake pipe to be reduced. This is counter intuitive. Straight air systems like SMEE, for example, increase trainline pipe pressure when the brakes are applied. However, automatic systems like AMUE on an R1, trainline pipe air pressure reduces to cause application of the brakes. Hence why an R1 motorman who applies brake and witnesses the needle on the air gauge dip from 70 to 60 pounds, is said to have taken a 10 pound reduction (70-60=10 pounds). -Lap - holds air pressure into the brake cylinder constant. This is most useful after using the "apply" position to prevent over application of the brakes, and thus avoid a very hard stop. IE, a motorman in the example from above who wishes to stop his train can move the brake handle from the "release" position to the "apply" position, causing air to flow out of the brake pipe, and air to flow into the brake cylinder, slowing the train down. Since he wants to take a 10 pound reduction in the example above (and nothing more), once he has seen the needle on the air gauge dip from 70 to 60 pounds, he would then move his brake handle to the "lap" position to prevent any further application of the brakes. This "lap" position holds the brake cylinder pressure constant, meaning the friction brake force being applied to the wheels holds constant. This position does NOT allow the brakes to release - it simply leaves things "as is". Thus an example service (non-emergency) braking effort by a motorman on an AMUE train simply goes something like this: (From release) apply.....(10 pound reduction)....lap...(hold in lap, train slows down steadily)...(at slower speed brake force starts to get high so it's time to avoid a hard stop)...release (5 pound increase so still 5 pound reduction from a full release)...lap...(make final stop) Think of it as a "fill the bag" metaphor. When you fill the bag with air, the train stops faster. When you let air out of the bag, the train stops slower. With no air in the bag, the train doesn't stop at all. -Apply lets air into the bag -Release lets air out of the bag -Lap seals the bag so whatever air is inside stays inside, and whatever air is outside stays outside It's a very nice system, not only for its time, but in general because it allows the motorman to determine EXACTLY how much braking force to use at all times based on judgment and reaction time/skill with the brake valve. Now you may notice I've skipped the electric hold position so far. If your brain doesn't hurt as it is, continue: -Electric hold - laps the brakes (see lap) if and only if the electric brake is active (it's activated by an electric brake plug on an R1 which goes into a key switch to the left of the master controller. The biggest advantage of this: "Electric hold" also allows a train to recharge its brake pipe without releasing its brakes, provided it was previously charged in the first place (helpful for recharging a train if it goes BIE en route, ie on a downhill or uphill track). However, NOTE: If the electric brake plug is not active (therefore the train's brakes are operating pneumatically), this position acts exactly like the release position. Additionally, if the train does not have the electric brake active, the brakes will take longer to apply AND release (the longer the train, the longer it will take - brakes will seem "slow" to apply and release). This is because the electric brake, when active, causes all cars in the train to let air flow in or out of their respective cylinders and pipes simultaneously. With no electric brake, the train is said to be operating pneumatically, and only the motorman's car is allowing the flow of air - meaning that the setup time for any apply/release instruction is increased by approximately 1 second for each extra car on the train (ie 10 car train will feel like a 9 second delay before the fully desired braking effect is reached). Hence it is advantageous when running trains to maintain an active electric brake. Good motormen could handle shorter trains with ease, with no electric brake, and due to maintenance failures often had to make do with longer trains than that even. It takes skill to master a system like this, but once mastered it allows for the finest control of the brakes on a train. That said, the R1 in BVE the last time I played it got some things right, but I remember that the R1 in the game doesn't "handle" like an AMUE train at all...especially with the brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom909 Posted October 9, 2011 Share #7 Posted October 9, 2011 Good - I haven't used bve in several years but i remember that the station distances seemed to be real screwed up and the running times as a result were very lacking in realism. Hopefully once the distances are properly sorted out (and timetables too), then hopefully someone can work on the train because the vast majority of them are too fast and missing a good deal of realism as to how they handle and the appearance of their cabs. The best one, IMO is the R-1 but the brakes react WAY quicker than any arnine in real life, and the train lacks the electric hold position (although I doubt there's a way to code that in). Well all the routes that I built used the official chaining codes so the distances are as close to correct as it can be. In BVE you have some limits that everything has to be in blocks of 25 meters. The chaining codes are in 100 foot increments, so I had to convert each 100 feet to 30.48 meters. Which sometimes stations might be off by 10-20 feet at the most I also used the chaining codes for the grade changes and signal and sign placements. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom909 Posted October 9, 2011 Share #8 Posted October 9, 2011 Good - I haven't used bve in several years but i remember that the station distances seemed to be real screwed up and the running times as a result were very lacking in realism. Hopefully once the distances are properly sorted out (and timetables too), then hopefully someone can work on the train because the vast majority of them are too fast and missing a good deal of realism as to how they handle and the appearance of their cabs. The best one, IMO is the R-1 but the brakes react WAY quicker than any arnine in real life, and the train lacks the electric hold position (although I doubt there's a way to code that in). Well all the routes that I built used the official chaining codes so the distances are as close to correct as it can be. In BVE you have some limits that everything has to be in blocks of 25 meters. The chaining codes are in 100 foot increments, so I had to convert each 100 feet to 30.48 meters. Which sometimes stations might be off by 10-20 feet at the most I also used the chaining codes for the grade changes and signal and sign placements. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamaica Line Posted October 10, 2011 Share #9 Posted October 10, 2011 @ SubwayGuy: ...whoa! That was a lot to take in. That's an interesting braking system for sure. Thanks a lot! :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamaica Line Posted October 10, 2011 Share #10 Posted October 10, 2011 @ SubwayGuy: ...whoa! That was a lot to take in. That's an interesting braking system for sure. Thanks a lot! :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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