Redevelopment of the South Bronx without Metro-North Enhancements?

[RailRunRob]

Well yes in 15-20 it isn't but by then the way that station looks already, it will need another upgrade.  $92 million for shoddy work IMO.  Have been inside that station?  There appears to be NOWHERE within the station to wait without water coming in. I was shocked to see that.

Nothing of any quality is constructed in the US anymore you shouldn't be to shocked. A million or two 20 years from now for a upgrade is that ready so bad? All the money spent in the area? it'll pay for itself.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Nothing of any quality is constructed in the US anymore you shouldn't be to shocked. A million or two 20 years from now for a upgrade is that ready so bad? All the money spent in the area? it'll pay for itself.

I beg to differ. I'm a big proponent of "Made in USA" and purchase A LOT of American goods, so I think that blanket statement is a poor one.  Investing in the South Bronx and that Metro-North station are two different things.  Spending that kind of money for stadium goers that is of no benefit to the actual residents in the area makes no sense.  

[RailRunRob]

I beg to differ. I'm a big proponent of "Made in USA" and purchase A LOT of American goods, so I think that blanket statement is a poor one.  Investing in the South Bronx and that Metro-North station are two different things.  Spending that kind of money for stadium goers that is of no benefit to the actual residents in the area makes no sense.  

Come on this isn't 1940/50's America when we actually took pride in doing the job right the first time. While I respect your patriotic view and support it's doesn't change the fact other Countries are doing it better. Name one major Civil project in the region that's not suffering from cutting corners, shotty planning and running over budget? Maybe the Expo line extension in LA but correct me if im wrong. As far as the Stadium what's a lot of money? They make Millions in a month off events with tickets and purchases also taxed doesn't that go back to the City and region as a whole school's,roads and other public works? Is it me or is this just basic economics? So it's kinda working for the all the residents no?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Come on this isn't 1940/50's America when we actually took pride in doing the job right the first time. While I respect your patriotic view and support it's doesn't change the fact other Countries are doing it better. Name one major Civil project in the region that's not suffering from cutting corners, shotty planning and running over budget? Maybe the Expo line extension in LA but correct me if im wrong. As far as the Stadium what's a lot of money? They make Millions in a month off events with tickets and purchases also taxed doesn't that go back to the City and region as a whole school's,roads and other public works? Is it me or is this just basic economics? So it's kinda working for the all the residents no?

That's kind of the point I was making. lol  I don't think there are enough events to justify such an expense, and it doesn't really benefit the residents since they use it the least.  I have yet to see a decent crowd at that station outside of Yankees games.

[RailRunRob]

That's kind of the point I was making. lol  I don't think there are enough events to justify such an expense, and it doesn't really benefit the residents since they use it the least.  I have yet to see a decent crowd at that station outside of Yankees games.

I look at like a Belmont Park or Aqueduct they don't really benefit the locals I don't think there really supposed to. It's a point of access to a venue. I guess I'm also really confused why you think the Yankee ballclub or the stadium overall would be able to break even on the cost for the station relatively quickly $ 92 Million? They're the epitome of baseball if you visit New York that is definitely a travel destination. Plus extended access for people around the region $$$ yet another point of access. I get the point that you don't see it being used as much as you think it should.  It's kinda Iike friends of mine that have houses out-of-state and only use it over the summer. Yeah it might seem like a waste but as long as they're paying for it what does it matter? Yankee Stadium make's more then enough in the season for the full year. April to October?  The fact of the neighborhood is developing is beyond the point. The Station it's fulfilling its intended purpose. What Civil or Capital project ever projected to break even in less than 10 to 15 years? Ive seen 25-30 years in some forecasts. Would you buy into a stock without a out five year investment period at least? It's a long game it's not checkers. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I look at like a Belmont Park or Aqueduct they don't really benefit the locals I don't think there really supposed to. It's a point of access to a venue. I guess I'm also really confused why you think the Yankee ballclub or the stadium overall would be able to break even on the cost for the station relatively quickly $ 92 Million? They're the epitome of baseball if you visit New York that is definitely a travel destination. Plus extended access for people around the region $$$ yet another point of access. I get the point that you don't see it being used as much as you think it should.  It's kinda Iike friends of mine that have houses out-of-state and only use it over the summer. Yeah it might seem like a waste but as long as they're paying for it what does it matter? Yankee Stadium make's more then enough in the season for the full year. April to October?  The fact of the neighborhood is developing is beyond the point. The Station it's fulfilling its intended purpose. What Civil or Capital project ever projected to break even in less than 10 to 15 years? Ive seen 25-30 years in some forecasts. Would you buy into a stock without a out five year investment period at least? It's a long game it's not checkers. 

That's all fine and good, but the new Yankee's stadium was supposed to be built with the agreement that the Yankees would make investments in the neighborhood to benefit the local residents, which to some extent they've failed to do.  

[RailRunRob]

That's all fine and good, but the new Yankee's stadium was supposed to be built with the agreement that the Yankees would make investments in the neighborhood to benefit the local residents, which to some extent they've failed to do.  

Have you seen all the new stuff going up on River Ave? The 161st street area is 1st up in the revamp of the South Bronx followed by Mott Haven. So when you say "to some extent they've failed to do". Can you be a little bit more specific?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Have you seen all the new stuff going up on River Ave? The 161st street area is 1st up in the revamp of the South Bronx followed by Mott Haven. So when you say "to some extent they've failed to do". Can you be a little bit more specific?

LOL... I was just in the South Bronx tutoring a student this morning, and am down there at least once or twice a week.  The money pouring into the South Bronx sure as hell isn't from the Yankees.  When that place first opened, I was invited to a game by a good friend of mine who was a season ticket holder and had expensive tickets.  It was the first time I had been to the South Bronx, and the immediate area looked like a dump.  All I could think about coming from the parking lot was don't let us get robbed down here.  There was a lot of resentment in the area because all of these folks with money were coming to the games and the immediate area really wasn't benefiting from it.  Sure, maybe a few bars right by Yankees stadium saw some money, but outside of that, no one stuck around and spent money down there.  Everyone would stay in the stadium and purchase there, and when the game was over we immediately went to the parking lot and got the hell out of there.  Even now when I'm down there and there are Yankees' games or other events going on, the place is closed off literally by the police, and the locals stay away.  The investment in the South Bronx is mainly from the city.  Do you have any idea how many millions of dollars the borough president of Bronx has invested into the Grand Concourse alone down there?  

 

Let's be honest.  The South Bronx has a LONG way to go.  It will never be a Riverdale that's for sure, and every time I go down there, I have to "adjust" to the environment if you will. I dress down in jeans and a t-shirt.... Nothing flashy that may make me a target, etc., and even then I still get looks, as if to say who in the hell is this guy, and what is he doing down here?  lol

[RailRunRob]

LOL... I was just in the South Bronx tutoring a student this morning, and am down there at least once or twice a week.  The money pouring into the South Bronx sure as hell isn't from the Yankees.  When that place first opened, I was invited to a game by a good friend of mine who was a season ticket holder and had expensive tickets.  It was the first time I had been to the South Bronx, and the immediate area looked like a dump.  All I could think about coming from the parking lot was don't let us get robbed down here.  There was a lot of resentment in the area because all of these folks with money were coming to the games and the immediate area really wasn't benefiting from it.  Sure, maybe a few bars right by Yankees stadium saw some money, but outside of that, no one stuck around and spent money down there.  Everyone would stay in the stadium and purchase there, and when the game was over we immediately went to the parking lot and got the hell out of there.  Even now when I'm down there and there are Yankees' games or other events going on, the place is closed off literally by the police, and the locals stay away.  The investment in the South Bronx is mainly from the city.  Do you have any idea how many millions of dollars the borough president of Bronx has invested into the Grand Concourse alone down there?  

 

Let's be honest.  The South Bronx has a LONG way to go.  It will never be a Riverdale that's for sure, and every time I go down there, I have to "adjust" to the environment if you will. I dress down in jeans and a t-shirt.... Nothing flashy that may make me a target, etc., and even then I still get looks, as if to say who in the hell is this guy, and what is he doing down here?  lol

I think you need to change your perspective it's based on yourself and what you can see right now.  Not a really good way to process the world around you. If I were to based my argument on first principles what I know to be true. Looking back 30 or 40 years the neighborhood is 100 times better than it was. Second the fact that the Yankees invested in a new stadium means they're not going anywhere and that mean's something that's the anchor point of the neighborhood. Third the population of the city is exploding.  it's not going to be long developers jump on it chance to develop that prime area. The stadium being there is going to drive that along with excellent transportation coverage and relatively short travel time to the city. 20 years out I foresee the entire concourse being redeveloped. The stadium  brought along new Parkland I even saw a new skate park in the area. Not too different from what happened over here in Brooklyn with the Barclays Center that was 20 years in the making, sure the area was a lot better shape than Yankee Stadium but we can't deny the fact a commitment from a venue and the ball club mean something cities money hungry developers. Also let me be honest the Bronx and New York as a whole it's a lot different than what was in 1980. You could never be an investor you lack foresight seriously!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think you need to change your perspective it's based on yourself and what you can see right now.  Not a really good way to process the world around you. If I were to based my argument on first principles what I know to be true. Looking back 30 or 40 years the neighborhood is 100 times better than it was. Second the fact that the Yankees invested in a new stadium means they're not going anywhere and that mean's something that's the anchor point of the neighborhood. Third the population of the city is exploding.  it's not going to be long developers jump on it chance to develop that prime area. The stadium being there is going to drive that along with excellent transportation coverage and relatively short travel time to the city. 20 years out I foresee the entire concourse being redeveloped. The stadium as brought along new Parkland I even saw a new skate park in the area. Not too different from what happened over here in Brooklyn with the Barclays Center that was 20 years in the making, sure the area was a lot better shape than Yankee Stadium but we can't deny the fact a commitment from a venue and the ball club mean something cities money hungry developers. Also let me be honest the Bronx and New York as a whole it's a lot different than what was in 1980. You could never be an investor you lack foresight seriously!

LMAO... Please... I'm doing just fine,  thank you very much.  Considering the amount of money that is being poured into the South Bronx, I would argue that it should be much better than it is now.  Ok, yeah so they invested in a park across the street from the stadium.  Big deal... They still have all of those parking garages that went belly up and lost hundreds of millions of dollars.  The money that the city is pouring into the South Bronx won't last forever (it's no secret that the city is doing quite well financially due mainly to the tourist industry, tech and to some extent Wall Street (over the last few years anyway)), and from the looks of things, we may be looking at 2008 all over again this year if there is a global recession, which is very likely.  If that happens, you could see development down there stall the way it did after the first recession we had around 2008-2009.  The real signs of any true development is when you see banks opening and financial institutions investing in an area.  That has yet to happen.  There is nowhere to eat there (fully of bodegas and nasty fast food joints, with not an ounce of organic or natural food places) (believe me I know, as I did jury duty down there for weeks and went to Manhattan to eat for lunch or waited until I got back to Riverdale).  Until those things happen, the neighborhood will be slow to see any real development.

[RailRunRob]

LMAO... Please... I'm doing just fine,  thank you very much.  Considering the amount of money that is being poured into the South Bronx, I would argue that it should be much better than it is now.  Ok, yeah so they invested in a park across the street from the stadium.  Big deal... They still have all of those parking garages that went belly up and lost hundreds of millions of dollars.  The money that the city is pouring into the South Bronx won't last forever (it's no secret that the city is doing quite well financially due mainly to the tourist industry, tech and to some extent Wall Street (over the last few years anyway)), and from the looks of things, we may be looking at 2008 all over again this year if there is a global recession, which is very likely.  If that happens, you could see development down there stall the way it did after the first recession we had around 2008-2009.  The real signs of any true development is when you see banks opening and financial institutions investing in an area.  That has yet to happen.  There is nowhere to eat there (fully of bodegas and nasty fast food joints, with not an ounce of organic or natural food places) (believe me I know, as I did jury duty down there for weeks and went to Manhattan to eat for lunch or waited until I got back to Riverdale).  Until those things happen, the neighborhood will be slow to see any real development.

Of course you are like every other employee an armchair CEO complaining from the comfort of their computer screen hope you do well with your Roths and a few dollars you manage to accumulate in those 401's I'm sure the economy will be kind to you just in case social securities not around. What's funny is that you speak of there not being any organic or natural places in neighborhoods when you know for a fact that there're a lot of people that don't understand nutrition and or how to fight to get these types of places opened in the neighborhood. I don't know what bothers me more about the situation the fact that most times you don't try to offer any solutions? Or that quite often you compare yourself to people that may not know better or have the means. Incredible to me that you think it you came into this world understanding how it works somebody told you somebody showed you at some point but what if somebody never showed you or if you didn't have anybody to guide you where would you be then? The world at its best self preservation it's almost all people care about specially when they feel they have a upper hand. The old I did it why can't you spiel hilarious. Not making it personal just how I perceive it but I digress. Since all we've been doing is using the English alphabet to make words that makes sentences and paragraphs let's get to the facts. Where's the data on all the money that's been poured into the South Bronx? I'm really curious to where you're getting the numbers from? Pouring money in ?What part of population boom don't you understand? It's about proximity and transportation. You you think people are going to be able to continue moving in to Brooklyn? People said the same thing about Williamsburg,Harlem Bushwick and the Lower East Side 20-30 years ago.  I don't understand what perspective you're coming from four stops to Columbus Circle are you kidding? Are we using history as a guide or what?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Of course you are like every other employee an armchair CEO complaining from the comfort of their computer screen hope you do well with your Roths and a few dollars you manage to accumulate in those 401's I'm sure the economy will be kind to you just in case social securities not around. What's funny is that you speak of there not being any organic or natural places in neighborhoods when you know for a fact that there're a lot of people that don't understand nutrition and or how to fight to get these types of places opened in the neighborhood. I don't know what bothers me more about the situation the fact that most times you don't try to offer any solutions? Or that quite often you compare yourself to people that may not know better or have the means. Incredible to me that you think it you came into this world understanding how it works somebody told you somebody showed you at some point but what if somebody never showed you or you didn't have anybody to guide you where would you be then? The world at its best self preservation it's almost all people care about specially when they feel they have a upper hand. The old I did it why can't you spiel hilarious. Not making it personal just how I perceive it but I digress. Since all we've been doing is using the English alphabet to make words that makes sentences and paragraphs let's get to the facts. Where's the data on all the money that's been poured into the South Bronx? I'm really curious to where you're getting the numbers from? Pouring money in ?What part of population boom don't you understand? It's about proximity and transportation. You you think people are going to be able to continue moving in to Brooklyn? People said the same thing about Williamsburg,Harlem Bushwick and the Lower East Side 20-30 years ago.  I don't understand what perspective you're coming from four stops to Columbus Circle are you kidding? Are we using history as a guide or what?

I've been working since I was 15 (worked for the at 16) so I'll be just fine, trust me.   And no, I wasn't shown a lot of things.  I've learned a lot of things on my own from being proactive and independent, which I will admit my parents taught me at a young age.  As for the investment, lol, do you really think that the improvements in the South Bronx just came out of thin air?  

[RailRunRob]

I've been working since I was 15 (worked for the at 16) so I'll be just fine, trust me.   And no, I wasn't shown a lot of things.  I've learned a lot of things on my own from being proactive and independent, which I will admit my parents taught me at a young age.  As for the investment, lol, do you really think that the improvements in the South Bronx just came out of thin air?  

A lot of people work since they're 15 big deal. Ive work a few Tech companies and did work with Kawasaki in University thus my interest in transit. None of that guarantees any of us success so let's not pat ourself's on the back yet, plus when you know you're good you don't have to proclaim it and tell anyone you just know people do as well so .I'm sure you understand when say im always leery of people that have to talk themself up.You're missing the most important part to learning on your own and gaining Independence you have to be self-aware and able to think critical. That's the most important part encouraging a child to question the world that's more than half the battle. I meet people day in and day out 40 and 50 years old that don't possess that skill. So if you admit that your parents taught you at a very young age you really forfeit the ability to speak in the tone that you do a lot of occasions. I don't understand why someone would have to tell you that. As far as the South Bronx im not saying  it came out of thin air your speaking numbers now, the rules of engagement changed with that introduction. Numbers means that something came from data. I also understand that the human brain is very ineffective when it comes to specifics being it works by processing patterns. I learned that as a child  playing telephone. Im just asking for the source of that data. Don't like to work in interpretation like we were speaking on before. $92 million means two different things from two different perspectives all depending on how you look at it. Big picture,small picture State ,City I respect your opinion you're entitled to it but if we're claiming to both be rational and logical individuals then is okay to look at the data. It's clearly be only way to decipher between perception and fact or reality. You agree?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

A lot of people work since they're 15 big deal. Ive work a few Tech companies and did work with Kawasaki in University thus my interest in transit. None of that guarantees any of us success so let's not pat ourself's on the back yet, plus when you know you're good you don't have to proclaim it and tell anyone you just know people do as well so .I'm sure you understand when say im always leery of people that have to talk themself up.You're missing the most important part to learning on your own and gaining Independence you have to be self-aware and able to think critical. That's the most important part encouraging a child to question the world that's more than half the battle. I meet people day in and day out 40 and 50 years old that don't possess that skill. So if you admit that your parents taught you at a very young age you really forfeit the ability to speak in the tone that you do a lot of occasions. I don't understand why someone would have to tell you that. As far as the South Bronx im not saying  it came out of thin air your speaking numbers now, the rules of engagement changed with that introduction. Numbers means that something came from data. I also understand that the human brain is very ineffective when it comes to specifics being it works by processing patterns. I learned that as a child  playing telephone. Im just asking for the source of that data. Don't like to work in interpretation like we were speaking on before. $92 million means two different things from two different perspectives all depending on how you look at it. Big picture,small picture State ,City I respect your opinion you're entitled to it but if we're claiming to both be rational and logical individuals then is okay to look at the data. It's clearly be only way to decipher between perception and fact or reality. You agree?

That's not necessarily true today though.  I'm not proclaiming anything.  I'm simply clarifying... 

 

Since you want data, you can read this article:

 

http://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/the-bronx-feeding-frenzy/

[RailRunRob]

That's not necessarily true today though.  I'm not proclaiming anything.  I'm simply clarifying... 

 

Since you want data, you can read this article:

 

http://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/the-bronx-feeding-frenzy/

Ill raise you your realdeal.com and add a few more data points to the table.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/20/realestate/the-south-bronx-beckons.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/realestate/mott-haven-the-bronx-in-transition.html

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2015/03/09/mott_havens_transition_into_new_dumbowilliamsburg_is_nigh.php

http://newyorkyimby.com/2015/08/reveal-for-17-story-134-unit-mixed-use-building-at-810-river-avenue-south-bronx.html

http://www.wsj.com/articles/reviving-the-south-bronx-waterfront-1425862978

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/real-estate/south-bronx-real-estate-market-suddenly-burning-hot-article-1.2178095

 

I see the building permits being filed everyday in SoBro ohh I mean The South Bronx.

 

 What's not necessarily true? Not sure what your referring to.

[bobtehpanda]

Have you seen all the new stuff going up on River Ave? The 161st street area is 1st up in the revamp of the South Bronx followed by Mott Haven. So when you say "to some extent they've failed to do". Can you be a little bit more specific?

 

I mean, he has a valid point. There's investment going into the South Bronx, it's just not coming from the Yankees.

 

Saying that the South Bronx is on the up and up is like saying Crown Heights was on the up and up in '92. It's technically true, but we're workin from a really low base here.

[RailRunRob]

I mean, he has a valid point. There's investment going into the South Bronx, it's just not coming from the Yankees.

 

Saying that the South Bronx is on the up and up is like saying Crown Heights was on the up and up in '92. It's technically true, but we're workin from a really low base here.

Exactly !   " Not too different from what happened over here in Brooklyn with the Barclays Center that was 20 years in the making, sure the area was a lot better shape than Yankee Stadium but we can't deny the fact a commitment from a venue and the ball club mean something to the cities money hungry developers."

[Lordsaitamaboss]

Let's be real, though: Buses (whether local or express) aren't the main "drivers" of gentrification. People (with money that is) don't move to a dense area like the South Bronx to take a slow bus and sit in traffic. You may get people who take it occasionally, but not enough to get a consistent ridership full of yuppies or gentrifiers or whatever term you want to use.

 

I mean, by that logic, we should run express buses to Park Slope & Bed-Stuy. The only reason we're even having this discussion is because the BxM4 happens to exist already, and MTA Bus was more generous with it's service than NYCT. (I mean, look at the X16, X18, and X29. All were fairly efficient express routes, but NYCT argued that those areas were close enough to Manhattan that they could use alternate modes)

 

Heck, you don't see people asking to have the BMs routed through Park Slope because that area is gentrifying.

 

 

The thing is that the MNRR is also significantly more expensive than the subway, and goes to a lot fewer places. I mean $201 for a monthly pass, plus the cost of a MetroCard if you're not working within walking distance of Grand Central. (Plus the time to transfer to the other modes). Even if you bumped it up to 30 minute headways all day (basically, having all those NWP locals stop there), you wouldn't get that much more ridership because of the highest cost.

 

I mean, even in far-out, middle-class neighborhoods you have people who take the local bus to the subway as opposed to the express bus or LIRR/MNRR, even if it's quicker. Look at the areas along the Port Washington branch. Look at Staten Island. People are so eager to save the $100 a month that they'll add a half hour to their daily commute.

 

In an area like the South Bronx, which has more reasonable subway alternatives, and is more working-class (even with the new developments), the cost alone is going to keep a lot of people from using the service.

 

That new "Freedom Ticket" or whatever that they're coming out with might help boost ridership.

No amount of fare cuts or service increases will increase ridership at melrose and tremont those stations are useless and need to go already. Not only that they are so close to the subway there is no reason for them to exist. Melrose is near the and which are way more frequent tremont has the Bx41 SBS which will reach fordham in 2 stops sorry but those stations should never have been saved MTA needs to cut it's dead weight and drop those stations they only piss off people wanting to reach Westchester areas quickly. To be fair bus service is way more frequent than the port washington service but If I had a good paying job no way am I putting up with NICE N20G and the NOPE I don't have time for that.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

No amount of fare cuts or service increases will increase ridership at melrose and tremont those stations are useless and need to go already. Not only that they are so close to the subway there is no reason for them to exist. Melrose is near the and which are way more frequent tremont has the Bx41 SBS which will reach fordham in 2 stops sorry but those stations should never have been saved MTA needs to cut it's dead weight and drop those stations they only piss off people wanting to reach Westchester areas quickly. To be fair bus service is way more frequent than the port washington service but If I had a good paying job no way am I putting up with NICE N20G and the NOPE I don't have time for that.

Welcome back qjtransitmaster....  

[Lordsaitamaboss]

Welcome back qjtransitmaster....  

To be fair don't know what you are on to but I don't care I used to use the metro-north harlem line a few times those stations serve very few people and add way too much time that and they are redundant to more frequent services. The harlem line stops make using those 2 stations not worth it as express trains bypass the south bronx almost always and the major reverse commuter destination is indeed White Plains. I am going back to school soon and going to get a true career soon so I won't be here for a while but I will lurk and look for interesting people here and elsewhere.