Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[TMC]

2 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

With this Rockaway Line idea you seem like someone who’s never given a thought to the majority of the ridership who are headed for Brooklyn and Manhattan. There’s a reason why the connection was made to the at Liberty junction.I missing something here ? Carry on. 

Those stations carry ridership numbers in the hundreds, building it was a mistake...

[Trainmaster5]

14 minutes ago, MTA Researcher said:

Well at Rockaway Blvd we would establish a transfer point.

 

And yes I have considered ridership going through Manhattan and Brooklyn. I guess we could make it go past Rego Park.

 

In that case, we will have to trespass the dreamline of 2 Av. Maybe it’s time to rethink 2 Av line. Hmm maybe the [H] can go from Rego Park towards 2 Av to meet up with the  and from there the [H] go local and the  go 2 Av Exp?

 

You’re right to some extent though. I’m no expert but I learn based on feedback. Trial and Error. I want to hear your thoughts on my experimental ideas.

Okay I’ll play along. You’ve mentioned Rego Park a few times. Did you know that the Rockaway Beach Branch from Rego Park to Rockaways was severed from the LIRR and the station demolished ? Where is your H line supposed to terminate ? It definitely can’t run via the LIRR. It can’t connect with the NYCT Queens Blvd line without undergoing extensive environmental studies and obtaining access to the funding if such a project were to be approved. What I’m trying to point out is that the rehab costs of this project along with the absence of any clamor from the local community would seem to rule out the need for the project. My opinion. Carry on.

[Trainmaster5]

31 minutes ago, TMC said:

Those stations carry ridership numbers in the hundreds, building it was a mistake...

You do realize that the LIRR was bankrupt and had no intention of running service on the line from Hammels Wye northward, period ? Or the riders from Rockaway Park could travel eastward via Far Rockaway and then northward to Jamaica station paying the LIRR fare ? Time wise and money wise only a total waste of both, IMO. Carry on.

[TMC]

1 minute ago, Trainmaster5 said:

You do realize that the LIRR was bankrupt and had no intention of running service on the line from Hammels Wye northward, period ? Or the riders from Rockaway Park could travel eastward via Far Rockaway and then northward to Jamaica station paying the LIRR fare ? Time wise and money wise only a total waste of both, IMO. Carry on.

I'm not saying LIRR service should be brought back, the corridor from Rego Park to the Rockaways is quite weak today, filled with low density housing and auto-centric commercial facilities. I do think the idea of building that connection just for the sake of serving the Rockaways was a bad idea. My belief is that the LIRR should retake the tracks in the peninsula, and the existing line south of Liberty Avenue should be left for history. Run the new LIRR-takeover like an S-Bahn Branch with properly integrated fares (free transfers to other modes of transit, higher frequency, etc.). The rest of the B Division likely suffers with how sloppy the branching situation is at Rockaway Blvd. 

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, TMC said:

I'm not saying LIRR service should be brought back, the corridor from Rego Park to the Rockaways is quite weak today, filled with low density housing and auto-centric commercial facilities. I do think the idea of building that connection just for the sake of serving the Rockaways was a bad idea. My belief is that the LIRR should retake the tracks in the peninsula, and the existing line south of Liberty Avenue should be left for history. Run the new LIRR-takeover like an S-Bahn Branch with properly integrated fares (free transfers to other modes of transit, higher frequency, etc.). The rest of the B Division likely suffers with how sloppy the branching situation is at Rockaway Blvd. 

Neither the LIRR nor the  can retake anything concerning the present day subway service. It, like the NYCTA subway system, belongs to the City of New York. Just letting everyone know. Carry on.

[TMC]

7 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Neither the LIRR nor the  can retake anything concerning the present day subway service. It, like the NYCTA subway system, belongs to the City of New York. Just letting everyone know. Carry on.

If nothing can be done, then it's best to leave it alone. Rockaways ridership is too low to do anything else with, let alone Queenslink (Which I don't like, because building it well requires a dogbone past Forest Hills, and I think the ROI on that is too low). 

[TMC]

New thought: If it belongs to the city, then, it is possible if the city carried out the subway->LIRR conversion. Of course, I would only support this if LIRR's operational competence was multiplied by 100, but I don't want to rule it out entirely. The power of the inner LIRR branches is very under-appreciated when it comes to transit expansion. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 1/23/2023 at 8:07 AM, TMC said:

If nothing can be done, then it's best to leave it alone. Rockaways ridership is too low to do anything else with, let alone Queenslink (Which I don't like, because building it well requires a dogbone past Forest Hills, and I think the ROI on that is too low). 

Requires a dogbone past Forest Hills? How so? Wouldn’t one local branch off QBL using the existing turnouts, and the other local continue to turn at 71st as now?

On 1/23/2023 at 10:07 AM, TMC said:

New thought: If it belongs to the city, then, it is possible if the city carried out the subway->LIRR conversion. Of course, I would only support this if LIRR's operational competence was multiplied by 100, but I don't want to rule it out entirely. The power of the inner LIRR branches is very under-appreciated when it comes to transit expansion. 

Especially by the LIRR themselves, 😂 

[TMC]

32 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Requires a dogbone past Forest Hills? How so? Wouldn’t one local branch off QBL using the existing turnouts, and the other local continue to turn at 71st as now?

I don't like branching lines off of Queens Blvd, it'd be reducing service to Forest Hills, and the RBB at that point becomes a mere branch with the sole purpose of coverage. That'd why I'd just go with no-build or a dogbone past Forest Hills, extending both locals, and sending all s to Lefferts, while QBL locals go to each terminal on the peninsula, likely running 20 TPH total, 10 TPH per branch. 

[Lex]

On 1/22/2023 at 10:37 PM, TMC said:

I'm not saying LIRR service should be brought back, the corridor from Rego Park to the Rockaways is quite weak today, filled with low density housing and auto-centric commercial facilities. I do think the idea of building that connection just for the sake of serving the Rockaways was a bad idea. My belief is that the LIRR should retake the tracks in the peninsula, and the existing line south of Liberty Avenue should be left for history. Run the new LIRR-takeover like an S-Bahn Branch with properly integrated fares (free transfers to other modes of transit, higher frequency, etc.). The rest of the B Division likely suffers with how sloppy the branching situation is at Rockaway Blvd. 

Do you plan on looping it back through Brooklyn?

[TMC]

5 hours ago, Lex said:

Do you plan on looping it back through Brooklyn?

If you mean running via the Atlantic Branch, yes. It would just be an extension of the current Far Rockaway Branch of the LIRR. It would be operated as a inner S-Bahn type of branch, along with how the rest of the railroads should be operated, with trains running every 15-20 minutes. It doesn’t give them a faster commute, and cuts off service to Broad Channel, but that’s not a bad thing in my book. A couple thousand on a small island, and another couple thousand on a barrier island is not a compelling case for faster service. It should just be separated to help the rest of the system run better, now that the A would run exclusively to Lefferts.

[Lex]

1 hour ago, TMC said:

If you mean running via the Atlantic Branch, yes. It would just be an extension of the current Far Rockaway Branch of the LIRR. It would be operated as a inner S-Bahn type of branch, along with how the rest of the railroads should be operated, with trains running every 15-20 minutes. It doesn’t give them a faster commute, and cuts off service to Broad Channel, but that’s not a bad thing in my book. A couple thousand on a small island, and another couple thousand on a barrier island is not a compelling case for faster service. It should just be separated to help the rest of the system run better, now that the A would run exclusively to Lefferts.

Oh, okay.

Care to say that to those who use the Rockaway ?

[Trainmaster5]

3 hours ago, Lex said:

Oh, okay.

Care to say that to those who use the Rockaway ?

 

3 hours ago, Lex said:

Oh, okay.

Care to say that to those who use the Rockaway ?

I agree with you 100% .I am going to be very careful about this. I’m old enough to remember when the City of New York purchased the RBB property from the bankrupt LIRR. The line was rebuilt across Jamaica Bay by the city and a more convenient connection was built at Liberty Junction with the  line. The City did not abandon the residents of Rockaway peninsula nor the Hamilton Beach/ Cross Bay Area. The Rockaway residents gained a line with cheaper, more frequent service than anything the railroad could offer. There was no comparison between the new connection and the old line connecting to the LIRR at Rego Park. The City allowed the railroad to continue operating service between White Pot and the station at Ozone Park but the ridership numbers declined significantly. In my opinion the takeover of the RBB between the  and the peninsula south of there was a success in every way possible. Meanwhile the northern section of the RBB couldn’t justify itself as a component of the railroad or part of the NYCTA. My opinion. Carry on.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Trainmaster5
Context added

[TMC]

9 hours ago, Lex said:

Oh, okay.

Care to say that to those who use the Rockaway ?

That's exactly what I'd tell them:

"Sorry, no capacity"

[TMC]

6 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I agree with you 100% .I am going to be very careful about this. I’m old enough to remember when the City of New York purchased the RBB property from the bankrupt LIRR. The line was rebuilt across Jamaica Bay by the city and a more convenient connection was built at Liberty Junction with the  line. The City did not abandon the residents of Rockaway peninsula nor the Hamilton Beach/ Cross Bay Area. The Rockaway residents gained a line with cheaper, more frequent service than anything the railroad could offer. There was no comparison between the new connection and the old line connecting to the LIRR at Rego Park. The City allowed the railroad to continue operating service between White Pot and the station at Ozone Park but the ridership numbers declined significantly. In my opinion the takeover of the RBB between the  and the peninsula south of there was a success in every way possible. Meanwhile the northern section of the RBB couldn’t justify itself as a component of the railroad or part of the NYCTA. My opinion. Carry on.

You are thinking about this in terms of half-century old railroading practices. It doesn't have to be ran this way, and because they are run this way, the stations within NYC on LIRR and MNR carry comparatively low ridership numbers compared to parallel subway service. The connection may have been justified in the moment back then, but it was also the fault of the LIRR, and other US railroads for keeping with the status quo, and not evolving their practices to compete with the car (and plane, but that's not relevant to the LIRR). That is the reason they went bankrupt, failure to innovate and recognize the situation in front of them. Nowadays, we have examples of what a commuter railroad should be doing around the globe, and it's easily adaptable here. Cheaper service? Modern commuter railroads often use fare zones to set city travel fares equal to subways and local buses. More frequent service? Even on the LIRR today, and especially around the globe, it's not rare to have commuter rail lines run every 15 minutes, even on single track lines (given you have enough sidings). 15 minutes is about the peak frequency of the A in the Rockaway Peninsula, so nothing is lost on that front. They just have a windier trip through Cedarhurst, but it shouldn't be seen as more indirect. They gain more transfer opportunities along the way at Jamaica, and with competent scheduling, trains should be faster into Midtown than the current  service.  

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 1/15/2023 at 10:29 PM, Vulturious said:

That's exactly what I'm saying.

As shown here while sorta hard to see, this would most likely be how the connection would work with the track connection bypassing Columbus Circle Station entirely going straight to 72 St. 

I’m not sure how easy of a connection this would be. If you’re connecting to the local tracks, the connecting tracks have to not interfere with the existing express tracks. At least one connecting trackway will have to dodge the point where the northbound express and local tracks cross over, so that both express tracks are on the park side before they get to 72nd St. The southbound connecting track looks like it might have to go under some of the (very expensive) buildings in order to avoid interfering with the southbound express track before traveling under the park. 

On 1/15/2023 at 11:09 PM, MTA Researcher said:

So we get a scenario similar to 21 St Queensbridge - Queens Plaza where the  express and  local stop at 59 St - Columbus Circle and  local merging with the  coming from 57 St/7 Av. 

 

Looking at QBL it’s similar in the sense that you have  express and  local at Queens Plaza and  local at 21 St Queensbridge merging with the  going east.

That would be better than having the Broadway connection be made into the express tracks, which would indeed be another QBL, and potentially turn CPW into another delay-prone mess like QBL, due to a slew of merges in close proximity to each other. I don’t like how the MTA connected the 63rd St tunnel between Queens Plaza and the first local stop, creating a big bottleneck between all four QBL services in that area. This connection has the potential to do exactly the same thing to CPW if not done right. And that’s a very tricky location to make a connection.

Though FWIW, I think a CPW Local-Broadway Local connection may have some potential value as a relief line for the  which has some of its worst crowding between 42nd and 72nd streets. It also might make the  merge at 59th less of a problem because in essence, you’d be replacing the 6th Ave-CPW local service with a Broadway service that would be leaving the line before 59th St. So only the  (or the  in your scenario, although I’m not sure why) would be using those tracks at 59th, similar to how only the  branches off at 36th St in Brooklyn after they eliminated the  in South Brooklyn in 2010.

On 1/27/2023 at 10:17 AM, TMC said:

I don't like branching lines off of Queens Blvd, it'd be reducing service to Forest Hills, and the RBB at that point becomes a mere branch with the sole purpose of coverage. That'd why I'd just go with no-build or a dogbone past Forest Hills, extending both locals, and sending all s to Lefferts, while QBL locals go to each terminal on the peninsula, likely running 20 TPH total, 10 TPH per branch. 

I don’t really think it’s such a bad thing if one of the locals branches off Queens Blvd at 63rd Drive. Both locals really don’t need to go to the Rockaways. Only one local station loses service, 67th Ave. Although there would only be three services at 71st Ave, let’s be honest, the overwhelming majority of riders there want the express  and  trains…which they would still have. Relatively few riders at 71st are taking the  or , and that almost certainly wouldn’t change if  the  or  is the only local there.

Edited January 28, 2023 by T to Dyre Avenue

[MTA Researcher]

15 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

(or the  in your scenario, although I’m not sure why)

ronx rooklyn, get it?

[MTA Researcher]

34 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

It also might make the  merge at 59th less of a problem because in essence, you’d be replacing the 6th Ave-CPW local service with a Broadway service that would be leaving the line before 59th St.

Precisely, that’s why I proposed this idea.

 

I will go more in details when I’m recovered mentally. I pressed a wrong button and lost what I was going to post.

[Lex]

9 hours ago, TMC said:

That's exactly what I'd tell them:

"Sorry, no capacity"

So you have no issues with outright lying to people. Good to know.

[TMC]

1 minute ago, Lex said:

So you have no issues with outright lying to people. Good to know.

It’s not a lie though?

[Lex]

37 minutes ago, TMC said:

It’s not a lie though?

And how is it not?

[Trainmaster5]

11 hours ago, TMC said:

You are thinking about this in terms of half-century old railroading practices. It doesn't have to be ran this way, and because they are run this way, the stations within NYC on LIRR and MNR carry comparatively low ridership numbers compared to parallel subway service. The connection may have been justified in the moment back then, but it was also the fault of the LIRR, and other US railroads for keeping with the status quo, and not evolving their practices to compete with the car (and plane, but that's not relevant to the LIRR). That is the reason they went bankrupt, failure to innovate and recognize the situation in front of them. Nowadays, we have examples of what a commuter railroad should be doing around the globe, and it's easily adaptable here. Cheaper service? Modern commuter railroads often use fare zones to set city travel fares equal to subways and local buses. More frequent service? Even on the LIRR today, and especially around the globe, it's not rare to have commuter rail lines run every 15 minutes, even on single track lines (given you have enough sidings). 15 minutes is about the peak frequency of the A in the Rockaway Peninsula, so nothing is lost on that front. They just have a windier trip through Cedarhurst, but it shouldn't be seen as more indirect. They gain more transfer opportunities along the way at Jamaica, and with competent scheduling, trains should be faster into Midtown than the current  service.  

You seem to be suggesting that instead of the city buying and rebuilding the bridges over the bay they should have kicked the local residents to the curb. Are you saying that the residents of the peninsula would have been better served by taking the LIRR the roundabout way from Rockaway Park eastward to Far Rock and then through Cedarhurst and Valley Stream to Jamaica ? Do you not understand that the LIRR parent built the entire stretch across Broad Channel to avoid your idea and save time ? Does it make sense to you that taking the bus from Beach 116th westbound to Brooklyn to the Nostrand-Flatbush subway is faster than the train from that same LIRR station via Cedarhurst is faster heading towards Manhattan ? The reason why the impacted portion across the Bay was built by the LIRR and its parent Pennsylvania RR was because of the time savings compared to what you could get via Far Rockaway. One stop past today’s connection with the  was the Ozone Park LIRR station. Trains leaving there could continue n/b towards Rego Park and the mainline or take the diversion to East New York, Nostrand Avenue and Flatbush Avenue at today’s Atlantic terminal. The bankruptcy of the Pennsylvania RR and it’s orphan LIRR is the primary reason for the  connection and the formation of today’s  . The elimination of stops in the city limits is a result of the  and it’s LIRR and MNRR agenda. Leave the competition between the two railroads and the subway system by the wayside. This is public policy. Your proposals will never see the light of day. I think that Lex and many other members understand what I’m trying to say. My opinion. Feel free to disagree. No hard feelings on my part. I will say that I’ve never read a single post on the forum where someone would say screw another neighborhood. Carry on.

[TMC]

30 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

You seem to be suggesting that instead of the city buying and rebuilding the bridges over the bay they should have kicked the local residents to the curb. Are you saying that the residents of the peninsula would have been better served by taking the LIRR the roundabout way from Rockaway Park eastward to Far Rock and then through Cedarhurst and Valley Stream to Jamaica ? Do you not understand that the LIRR parent built the entire stretch across Broad Channel to avoid your idea and save time ? Does it make sense to you that taking the bus from Beach 116th westbound to Brooklyn to the Nostrand-Flatbush subway is faster than the train from that same LIRR station via Cedarhurst is faster heading towards Manhattan ? The reason why the impacted portion across the Bay was built by the LIRR and its parent Pennsylvania RR was because of the time savings compared to what you could get via Far Rockaway. One stop past today’s connection with the  was the Ozone Park LIRR station. Trains leaving there could continue n/b towards Rego Park and the mainline or take the diversion to East New York, Nostrand Avenue and Flatbush Avenue at today’s Atlantic terminal. The bankruptcy of the Pennsylvania RR and it’s orphan LIRR is the primary reason for the  connection and the formation of today’s  . The elimination of stops in the city limits is a result of the  and it’s LIRR and MNRR agenda. Leave the competition between the two railroads and the subway system by the wayside. This is public policy. Your proposals will never see the light of day. I think that Lex and many other members understand what I’m trying to say. My opinion. Feel free to disagree. No hard feelings on my part. I will say that I’ve never read a single post on the forum where someone would say screw another neighborhood. Carry on.

My point is that it’s not important to fixate on saving time from the Rockaways, because the ridership on that peninsula is so minute, it doesn’t effect anything. I am literally willing to kick local interests to the curb here, to make the rest of the system run better. It doesn’t really matter what happens to them.

[TMC]

2 hours ago, Lex said:

And how is it not?

Because that’s the truth, it increases capacity on the Fulton Street Line, which isn’t possible maintaining the current setup. So if the goal is increasing capacity, then yes, there is no more capacity for them to be served.

 

That’s okay, they are so unimportant to serve, I literally do not care what happens to them. 

[Lex]

1 minute ago, TMC said:

Because that’s the truth, it increases capacity on the Fulton Street Line, which isn’t possible maintaining the current setup. So if the goal is increasing capacity, then yes, there is no more capacity for them to be served.

 

That’s okay, they are so unimportant to serve, I literally do not care what happens to them. 

In that case, you are beyond help.