Jump to content


Attention: In order to reply to messages, create topics, have access to other features of the community you must sign up for an account.
Sign in to follow this  
Threxx

Fantasy NYC Subway - Alternate History

Recommended Posts

(Initial disclaimer: I'm not claiming that this is 100% realistic or plausible. I simply think it would be interesting to have a discussion about some of these ideas I have about what could have been, and perhaps discuss other ideas. If a moderator feels this should be combined with the proposals thread, then it can be moved, but considering that these are not really "proposals" and that they are far more nuanced and detailed than most proposals, I felt it was deserving of its own thread.)

 

MASTER DOCUMENT LINK

 

MAP LINKS:

IRT Expansions [( 2 ), ( 3 ), and ( 5 )]

Triborough RX [(X), with (L) and (K)]

14th Street Line [(L), (M), and (Y)]

Bushwick/Jamaica Lines [(J), (K), (P), (M), (Z)]

2nd Avenue and Branches [(H), (Q), (T), (U) and (V)]

Queens Blvd Expansions [(E), (F), and ( R )]

New Franklin Avenue Shuttle

 

So, the simple premise here is, what if Robert Moses (or someone in his position) was pro-transit instead of pro-highway? What if the IND (and the TA later) got state and/or federal funding for many of their planned expansions? What kind of system would we have today? That is the idea behind this.

I've drawn on the plans of the IND second system (taking parts from both the 1929 and 1939 plans), other planned lines and extensions that have been proposed by others in similar compilations, and some of my own unique ideas.

 

Because there are quite a few things to list, I will provide just the basic list of routes and their "normal" terminals in the thread below. Detailed information can be found in the master document above and linked here, which includes the following:

  • Full service guide (2016)
  • Full service guide (1989, pre-Manhattan Bridge closure) COMING SOON, hopefully.
  • Yard roster for each yard (surprisingly, most of these plans would likely only necessitate expansions to the current yard we have and no outright new ones)
  • Trains per hour for each time of day, per line
  • Track configuration listings for new lines
  • Plans for service during the Manhattan Bridge closure
  • Alternate historical events which explain the construction of this expanded subway

Lines: 

 

 

(1): 242nd Street/Van Cortlandt Park, Bronx - South Ferry, Manhattan
(2): Wakefield/241st Street, Bronx - Sheepshead Bay/Avenue U, Brooklyn

(3): Norwood/Gouverneur Avenue, Bronx - Canarsie/Flatlands Avenue, Brooklyn

(4): Woodlawn/Jerome Avenue, Bronx - Spring Creek/Linden Blvd, Brooklyn

(5): Eastchester/Dyre Avenue, Bronx - Kings Highway, Brooklyn

(6): Pelham Bay Park, Bronx - Brooklyn Bridge, Manhattan

(7): Bayside/Francis Lewis Blvd, Queens - 34th Street/Hudson Yards, Manhattan

 

(A): Inwood/207th Street, Manhattan - Ozone Park/Lefferts Blvd or Far Rockaway, Queens

(B): Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx - Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(C): Washington Heights/168th Street, Manhattan - Euclid Avenue, Brooklyn

(D): Norwood/Gun Hill Road, Bronx - Coney Island, Brooklyn

(E): Laurelton/234th Street, Queens - World Trade Center, Manhattan

(F): Queens Village/Springfield Blvd, Queens - Coney Island, Brooklyn

(G): Forest Hills/71st Avenue, Queens - Church Avenue, Brooklyn

( H ): St. Nicholas Avenue/125th Street, Manhattan - Kings Highway, Brooklyn

(J) / (Z): 188th Street/Farmers Blvd, Queens - Broad Street, Manattan

( K ): Utica Avenue/Avenue H, Brooklyn - 9th Avenue, Brooklyn via Bushwick/Nassau Street

(L): Utica Avenue/Avenue H, Brooklyn - 72nd Street/Broadway, Manhattan

( M ) / (Y): 188th Street/Farmers Blvd, Queens - 72nd Street/Broadway, Manhattan

(N): Astoria/Ditmars Blvd, Queens - Coney Island, Brooklyn

(P): Middle Village/Metropolitan Avenue, Queens - Forest Hills/71st Avenue, Queens
(Q): Throgs Neck/Tremont Avenue, Bronx - Coney Island, Brooklyn

(R): Jamaica/179th Street, Queens - Bay Ridge/95th Street, Brooklyn

Franklin Shuttle (S): Bedford/Nostrand Avenues - Prospect Park, Brooklyn
(T): Norwood/Gun Hill Road, Bronx - Kings Plaza/Avenue U, Brooklyn

(U): Fordham Plaza, Bronx - Avenue H/Kings Highway, Brooklyn
( V ): Hannover Square, Manhattan - Rockaway Park, Queens
(W): Astoria/Ditmars Blvd, Queens - Middle Village/Metropolitan Avenue, Queens

(X): Flushing/Main Street, Queens - St. George Terminal, Staten Island

SI 1: St. George Terminal - Tottenville, Staten Island

SI 2: St. George Terminal - Arlington, Staten Island

 

 

 

My future plans with this is to create a unique subway map similar to vanshookenraggen's maps, showing all of the lines clearly with annotations discussing the new lines and changes. I'm still working on figuring out GIMP so I can actually do this, and I still do need to get a blank NYC template. (If anyone has one that is workable, I would appreciate it if you posted it or PM'd it to me). For now, I've mapped some of the changes and new branches in Google Maps so you can view them. The links are above.

Long post, I know. Hopefully this fosters some discussion. I'm open to changing things if people suggest good ideas. (Even though I am not intending this to be 100% realistic, I want this to still feel semi-plausible, so I won't accept anything really out there like a subway to Suffolk County or the (C) to Astoria.)

Edited by Threxx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the North Shore Branch should be connected with the Triboro RX trains. 

 

On the service guide just so you know, when the express trains run, the local trains terminate at Great Kills (I think it should be Eltingville for the bus connections, but that's a different story)

 

Alright, so I see the (3) train runs up University Avenue in The Bronx and down Remsen Avenue in Brooklyn. I think you could cut that University Avenue Line back to Kingsbridge Road. To get around the reservoir would require too much meandering, and the reservoir takes up half your catchment area anyway.

 

I'm assuming when the (5) goes to Kings Highway, you're referring to Kings Highway/Nostrand, right?

 

For the (F) express south of Church Avenue, you'd have to add a crossover by Kings Highway to allow trains from Coney Island to stop at Avenue U. But personally, I don't think having the express run start at Kings Highway is worth it. You're not building up enough passengers to actually benefit from the express run.

 

I know the whole (F) express argument centers on the fact that the Park Slope/Carroll Gardens stations having higher ridership than the stations south of Church Avenue, but I personally think the whole thing could be resolved if the local started at Church on 4-6 minute headways, while the express started at Coney Island on 8-10 minute headways.  (The longer headways would allow for more passengers to build up per train, especially since it would apply to the entire stretch south of Church, instead of just south of Kings Highway).

 

So those Bushwick lines (J/K/Z), run through a South 4th Street subway and the Broadway elevated is demolished? And the (L) is routed via Utica 

 

I think having both the M/Y and J/Z operating east of Broadway Junction is overkill.

Edited by checkmatechamp13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the North Shore Branch should be connected with the Triboro RX trains.

 

As I envisioned it, the St. George station on the (X) would be a deep tunnel underneath the current terminal. A direct connection to the SIR would be costly and unfeasible. (The North Shore branch would also have existed for far long before the Triboro express, as the line would have been retained with the South Shore branch.)

 

On the service guide just so you know, when the express trains run, the local trains terminate at Great Kills (I think it should be Eltingville for the bus connections, but that's a different story)

 

I'll make the adjustment to the service guide. I might just change it to Eltingville anyway.  ;)

 

Alright, so I see the (3) train runs up University Avenue in The Bronx and down Remsen Avenue in Brooklyn. I think you could cut that University Avenue Line back to Kingsbridge Road. To get around the reservoir would require too much meandering, and the reservoir takes up half your catchment area anyway.

 

I will probably cut it back. I'll make the adjustments in a bit.

 

I'm assuming when the (5) goes to Kings Highway, you're referring to Kings Highway/Nostrand, right?

 

Yes.

 

For the (F) express south of Church Avenue, you'd have to add a crossover by Kings Highway to allow trains from Coney Island to stop at Avenue U. But personally, I don't think having the express run start at Kings Highway is worth it. You're not building up enough passengers to actually benefit from the express run.

 

I might adjust this, but the idea was to essentially make the (F) the primary line for riders out of Coney Island since it would get to Manhattan the fastest. It would also hopefully improve reliability compared to current reality in Queens.

 

I know the whole (F) express argument centers on the fact that the Park Slope/Carroll Gardens stations having higher ridership than the stations south of Church Avenue, but I personally think the whole thing could be resolved if the local started at Church on 4-6 minute headways, while the express started at Coney Island on 8-10 minute headways.  (The longer headways would allow for more passengers to build up per train, especially since it would apply to the entire stretch south of Church, instead of just south of Kings Highway).

 

I might increase the TPH of the ( H ) at rush hours, the tricky part is that the service plan has 3 local lines on 6th Avenue, so neither the ( H ) or the (P) can have very high headways.

 

So those Bushwick lines (J/K/Z), run through a South 4th Street subway and the Broadway elevated is demolished? And the (L) is routed via Utica

Yes and no. The (L) is rerouted along the freight RoW to serve as a local service to the (X). The map of the Triboro RX and the 14th Street lines shows more details.

 

I think having both the M/Y and J/Z operating east of Broadway Junction is overkill.

 

One has to remember that this is an "alternate history," not a proposal for future service. As I envisioned it, the Metropolitan Avenue line would have been built fairly early in the 20th century. Like the (7) line, the area would not be very developed at first, but the new line would bring development and the line would justify its own existence.

 

I accidentally deleted this post 4 times. I hate this forum software sometimes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll make the adjustment to the service guide. I might just change it to Eltingville anyway.  ;)

 

Sweet. And while you're at it, can you add this to the SIR history?

 

1948: The city purchases the passenger sections of the Staten Island Railway. The North and South Shore branches are rehabbed, while the spur line to South Beach is torn down in favor of bus service, with a station added at Rosebank/Park Hill as a compromise and also to serve the growing Park Hill Apartments complex and planned developments along Osgood/Mosel Avenue.

 

Also, on a historical note, remember that 1941-1945 were the years of WWII, so with all the material and manpower being diverted towards the war effort, it's unlikely that groundbreaking would occur in that year. A few years earlier (when FDR was trying to build public works projects to create jobs and get us out of the Depression) would be more realistic, with work being halted during WWII and resuming shortly afterwards.

 

I might adjust this, but the idea was to essentially make the  (F) the primary line for riders out of Coney Island since it would get to Manhattan the fastest. It would also hopefully improve reliability compared to current reality in Queens.

 

I might increase the TPH of the ( H ) at rush hours, the tricky part is that the service plan has 3 local lines on 6th Avenue, so neither the ( H ) or the (P) can have very high headways.

 

If you reduce the headways on the (F) itself, it's be possible.

 

Referring to the Brooklyn rush hour (which is obviously in the reverse direction of the Queens rush hour), I'd say to give 8 TPH to the (F) and 8 TPH to the ( H ). The remaining 4 TPH (coming from Queens) can be short-turned at 2nd Avenue as needed. (Remember that right now, there's 15 TPH running through the Rutgers Tube, and 8 + 8 = 16). So that still leaves plenty of space for the ( P ) on 6th Avenue.

 

Yes and no. The  (L) is rerouted along the freight RoW to serve as a local service to the (X). The map of the Triboro RX and the 14th Street lines shows more details.

 

Alright, that makes sense.

 

One has to remember that this is an "alternate history," not a proposal for future service. As I envisioned it, the Metropolitan Avenue line would have been built fairly early in the 20th century. Like the  (7) line, the area would not be very developed at first, but the new line would bring development and the line would justify its own existence.

 

Alright, that makes sense. I thought you had it merging from the Canarsie Line to the Jamaica Line at Broadway Junction. Alright yeah, if it's down the Metropolitan Avenue Line that makes more sense.

 

I don't think it would be likely that the MTA would build a double-decked line all the way to 188th Street back in the 1980s, though. If anything, they'd terminate the Metropolitan Avenue Line somewhere in Downtown Jamaica. (If it's 4 tracks on the lower level, just have the center tracks terminate at say, Parsons Blvd and merge onto the regular Jamaica Line tracks for flexibility, but still have the Metropolitan Line terminate at Parsons).

 

Also, instead of having a separate line along Merrick, you could have it pick up one of the LIRR branches (probably the St. Albans one since it's a little slower) and use that to head to Laurelton.

 

With the (Q) to Throgs Neck, I think you should move the Edgewater Road station to Hunts Point Avenue (remember, catchment area). Honestly, there's probably no point running it up the Bruckner unless you want to run it nonstop. Just run it up 3rd Avenue to 163rd, go across 163rd (with a stop at Tinton/Prospect, and another at Southern Blvd). Then add a stop around Boynton Avenue (I'd be inclined to just skip Hunts Point, unless it went nonstop up the Bruckner like I mentioned), and then continue with your stop spacing to Tremont.

 

I accidentally deleted this post 4 times. I hate this forum software sometimes.

 

Yeah, that's really annoying sometimes. I'd recommend typing as much as you can in Microsoft Word or Google Docs and then copy-and-paste whenever you have a large post, but it seems like you basically did that.

Edited by checkmatechamp13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, made a couple updates.

 

Changed the (Q) to follow the 3rd Avenue line in the bronx to 156th Street, then turn east towards Soundview and Throgs Neck. Using the existing tunnel would be cheaper and would likely be the route the (MTA) would take with the expansion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Threxx: Since I'm a bit short on time at the moment, I can't give this the critique I want to right now. But from what I've seen so far, it's quite interesting. I will say a few things though. First off, you're better off either using Google Maps. Using any kind of template will likely lead you to some type of trouble, especially in the Lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn section. Either that or make your own. Take it from someone who's been through this. Secondly, and this is just minor, but by 1989, the south tracks of the Manhattan Bridge were already closed for about a year at that point.

 

Also, if you can't guess by this point, I will not merge this thread with the general proposals thread. Not just yet anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Adjusted some historical details by checkmate's suggestions.

 

 

@Threxx: Since I'm a bit short on time at the moment, I can't give this the critique I want to right now. But from what I've seen so far, it's quite interesting. I will say a few things though. First off, you're better off either using Google Maps. Using any kind of template will likely lead you to some type of trouble, especially in the Lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn section. Either that or make your own. Take it from someone who's been through this. Secondly, and this is just minor, but by 1989, the south tracks of the Manhattan Bridge were already closed for about a year at that point.

 

Also, if you can't guess by this point, I will not merge this thread with the general proposals thread. Not just yet anyway.

 

I see. I was planning to possibly create an inset for those areas if it got too hectic. There are really only two new lines in either of those areas, so it should be doable even if i base it on a template.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just realized: Can we get the Astoria Line to go to LaGuardia?

 

Also remember that the original plan for the AirTrain was to have it connect JFK & LGA and then continue down to East Midtown. Maybe say that the (N) extension was done as a cheaper alternative. (Maybe also something with adding a 4th track so you can have bidirectional express service to the airport)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just realized: Can we get the Astoria Line to go to LaGuardia?

 

Also remember that the original plan for the AirTrain was to have it connect JFK & LGA and then continue down to East Midtown. Maybe say that the (N) extension was done as a cheaper alternative. (Maybe also something with adding a 4th track so you can have bidirectional express service to the airport)

 

Discussion in another thread proved that a subway extension on airport property would lead to very difficult political issues with fare collection. It wouldn't happen. The most one would see is an AirTrain between Ditmars Blvd and LGA, but LGA was never really a modern enough airport to ever see anything like that...  -_-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Making some further amendments to the plan.

(G) trains will run Flushing/Main Street - Church Avenue via Crosstown, Queens Blvd Local and Northern Blvd Local. The lack of a logical connection to the Queens Blvd trunk is very anti-IND construction as they were very far sighted and linked most of their lines very well. It also gives (G) trains running past Court Square some purpose, since even when they supplemented the (R) on weekends most (G) trains carried air as riders wanted Manhattan and not Brooklyn.

Because of this, the express X service north of Jackson Heights will go away. I'll make these changes to the maps and documents in a few moments.

Also, 1989 service guide might not happen for a while. The lack of a 63rd Street connection to QBL makes routing services... difficult. The (R) being the only real local on QBL is an issue and making the ( V ) local full time isn't the best solution. (Also, there are 3 routes going through 53rd Street, probably doable with lower TPH values in the late 80's but still a very tight squeeze there.)

 

One random note about added historical details: I would like to think that the IND wanted to build their Northern Blvd line up to College Point and possibly the Bronx, but the line could have been blocked by residents and further marred by WW2.

Edited by Threxx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you create this on a actual map (NYC Subway) or is it too much work?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you create this on a actual map (NYC Subway) or is it too much work?

 

Someone didn't read the earlier posts (or the OP)...

 

Ultimately, this is the plan. I'm rather busy at the moment so I haven't really had time to work on doing that, but my ultimate goal is to make a proper map. I had a short discussion about with Lance on the first page.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.