Privatize the New York City Subway System

[Around the Horn]

It's called speaking the truth. No name calling. Look at MVH's previous posts and that's calling a spade a spade. When you look to government to solve all your problems, knowing how inept the system is, there's not much to say. With the current system, there's tons of red tape to cut through to get projects done and we're seeing this right now at Penn Station.

 

No that's name calling. Nothing that's been posted in this thread fits the definition of socialism: "a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

 

Therefore, its not calling a spade a spade.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

No that's name calling. Nothing that's been posted in this thread fits the definition of socialism: "a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

 

Therefore, its not calling a spade a spade.

Socialism goes beyond just some definition.  The thinking that government has to be depended upon to make everything better... That's been shown to be wrong.  I've heard nothing but more calls for government, not less... Sounds socialist to me. We can debate the ins and outs of socialism, but there is definitely some truth to what I said.

[RR503]

No the truth is is that you're losing an argument, and are therefore falling back on ad hominem.

We are not advocating for more government -- we are advocating for the MTA's purview to be maintained. And as for your studies that show that government is bad, well, I can find a hundred others that contradict them. If you really think your solution is better, then you should be able to respond to our objections with something less feeble than the frankly toddleresque "you're a socialist."

[Via Garibaldi 8]

No the truth is is that you're losing an argument, and are therefore falling back on ad hominem.

We are not advocating for more government -- we are advocating for the MTA's purview to be maintained. And as for your studies that show that government is bad, well, I can find a hundred others that contradict them. If you really think your solution is better, then you should be able to respond to our objections with something less feeble than the frankly toddleresque "you're a socialist."

You haven't come up with a formidable argument to show how costs can be lowered, or how construction projects can be better streamlined and expedited, and if you think maintaining the "status quo" doesn't mean more government, you've got another thing coming.  More monies allocated via the government will definitely mean more government, whether we want it or not.  When you look at the unions, costs will only continue to go up, which means construction projects will cost more and more, and closing the gap has to come from somewhere.  What are you proposing if not more government?

[RR503]

You haven't come up with a formidable argument to show how costs can be lowered, or how construction projects can be better streamlined and expedited, and if you think maintaining the "status quo" doesn't mean more government, you've got another thing coming.  More monies allocated via the government will definitely mean more government, whether we want it or not.  When you look at the unions, costs will only continue to go up, which means construction projects will cost more and more, and closing the gap has to come from somewhere.  What are you proposing if not more government?

 

As have you. But I'll go first. Design-build contracts instead of D-B-B. Revision of fire codes and station construction guidelines to eliminate the need for gargantuan mezzanies. A public, independantly conducted, binding audit of ALL MTA capital projects. The institution of trunk shutdowns to facilitate the installation of CBTC/basic maintenance. A public, independantly conducted, binding audit of the MTA bus network (think USRA style -- electeds have no recourse if the auditors find a route/stop/routing to be superfluous/detrimental). A renegotiation of ALL union contracts (not pay -- transit workers deserve good pay -- but antiquated work rules and the like). Lengthening all MTA board member terms to five years to lessen political pressure. To pay for stuff, the extension of the transit surcharge to Uber/Lyft, and the placement of tolls on all east river crossings.

 

So yeah, this will require more people to administer. Do you have an issue with properly staffed agencies? And do you realize that having a private operator take over some of these functions will inevitably duplicate at least parts of the MTA beaurocracy? I'd much rather work with a known quantity than something new.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

As have you. But I'll go first. Design-build contracts instead of D-B-B. Revision of fire codes and station construction guidelines to eliminate the need for gargantuan mezzanies. A public, independantly conducted, binding audit of ALL MTA capital projects. The institution of trunk shutdowns to facilitate the installation of CBTC/basic maintenance. A public, independantly conducted, binding audit of the MTA bus network (think USRA style -- electeds have no recourse if the auditors find a route/stop/routing to be superfluous/detrimental). A renegotiation of ALL union contracts (not pay -- transit workers deserve good pay -- but antiquated work rules and the like). Lengthening all MTA board member terms to five years to lessen political pressure. To pay for stuff, the extension of the transit surcharge to Uber/Lyft, and the placement of tolls on all east river crossings.

 

So yeah, this will require more people to administer. Do you have an issue with properly staffed agencies? And do you realize that having a private operator take over some of these functions will inevitably duplicate at least parts of the MTA beaurocracy? I'd much rather work with a known quantity than something new.  

Don't make me laugh.  I have an issue with bloated, over staffed agencies, yes, and you should too.  Having worked in the offices, sadly, I don't think much has changed in that area, and there's too much bureaucracy involved for it to change in the near future. I like some of of your ideas and actually agree with a few of them.  We certainly don't need these enormous mezzanines. We definitely need to have a surcharge to Uber, Lyft and the like, because the taxi business may go bye-bye before we know it. I was watching one of the latest meetings over the weekend from the Taxi & Limousine Commission, and they are getting slaughtered.  They can barely pay their bills and some are making half of what they used to make, if that.  That tax that is collected from every ride is certainly dwindling, meaning less revenue for the to use.  

 

I also agree that the bidding process needs to be revised. All too often, RFPs are slanted towards one vendor (and believe I know since I've bid in quite a few RFPs for the City).  It's a mess.  However, I think you negotiation bit with the unions is over ambiguous.  I don't see them wanting to relinquish such goodies, especially since they feel as if they've negotiated in good faith with the last few contracts.  Partial privatization is the quickest way to sidestep some of the rhetoric and get down to business.  If Cuomo has his way, he'll have more board members appointed, which again means more government.

[Around the Horn]

Or do what Europe does and let the contractor just build the extension without the authority getting in the way (unlike SAS where Capital Construction was constantly getting in Judlau's way with change orders). For example, Crossrail: the contractor hands it over to TfL once its finished, TfL hasn't touched it yet. 

[Italianstallion]

Of course you'd say that. You clearly agree with the idea of using bloated labor with astronomical costs, even though it costs the taxpayer far more.

 

Are you not aware that Europe is more heavily unionized, with higher labor costs, than the US?

Also, since when are private organizations always streamlined? Think of the steel industry in the '60s and '70s, the airline industry then, the railroad industry today and IBM in the late 90s. 

 

So true. I've worked in many large corporations. The amount of waste is mind boggling. I think any large organization, be it private or public, has a hard time operating at peak efficiency.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Are you not aware that Europe is more heavily unionized, with higher labor costs, than the US?

There's a difference.  Europe builds with QUALITY.  Here we spend $1 billion dollars on stations and they look like garbage a few years later. I don't have a problem spending money for quality. I do have a problem spending money for inferior materials and shoddy construction.   You're old enough to have been to the old country.  I lived there long enough and there they understand how to build things to last.  I am not anti-union.  In fact I am a protectionist and very much pro-American, so I can't be anti-union.  What I don't support is out of control salaries with little in return.  I think the whole damn system needs to be revamped.  

[Italianstallion]

Of course you wouldn't. Two socialists thinking alike. lol

 

There you go again with name-calling in lieu of thinking. FWIW, I am not a socialist. 

[Italianstallion]

There's a difference.  Europe builds with QUALITY.  Here we spend $1 billion dollars on stations and they look like garbage a few years later. I don't have a problem spending money for quality. I do have a problem spending money for inferior materials and shoddy construction.   You're old enough to have been to the old country.  I lived there long enough and there they understand how to build things to last.  I am not anti-union.  In fact I am a protectionist and very much pro-American, so I can't be anti-union.  What I don't support is out of control salaries with little in return.  I think the whole damn system needs to be revamped.  

 

You are all over the place. "It's the public agencies, it's the unions, no, it's the quality, it's not the unions, I love the unions." Get consistent, please.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

There you go again with name-calling in lieu of thinking. FWIW, I am not a socialist. 

lol... You haven't said anything that proves otherwise, and you seem to favor MORE government interference for the subway, not less. 

 

 

You are all over the place. "It's the public agencies, it's the unions, no, it's the quality, it's not the unions, I love the unions." Get consistent, please.

It's a mix of things, and nothing has changed. I've been quite consistent, not just here but in other threads too.  I know you have a hard time seeing things from a different perspective, but it wouldn't be the first time.

[East New York]

This discussion has run its course. The NYCT Subway is not even considering privatization, let alone needing a discussion about it. #Closed