Why did New York get rid of all Els downtown while building new ones elsewhere?

[00crashtest]

3 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Franklin shuttle from Park Place to Franklin Avenue, including the demolition of Dean Street station, was considered a renovation by the

That's arguably a remodel, and certainly not an entirely new build. That's because I checked Google Maps Street View and it looks like they only replaced the original steel superstructure with a new one using the same parts (though without rivets and with a modern steel formulation) without any design changes besides the removal of the adjacent columns and girders for the former southbound track and the demolition of the Dean Street station. They even reused the original track bed design of wooden ties directly on top of the steel girders without a deck in between. They obviously reused the original substructure, including the landing abutments. Also, that is not a viaduct, only individual overpasses. That is akin to demolishing a dilapidated building, with habitable floor space that has mutiple wings, but not its foundation slab, and then reusing it and rebuilding the original design on top of it with at least one fewer wing. The fact that construction-related work was only from September 1997 to October 1999 meant that it was not possibly a full rebuild sharing no component with the original.

That is way different from the Market-Frankford Line in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where the entire Market Street Elevated west of downtown had both its superstructure and substructure demolished, including the landing abutments, before being replaced with an entirely new one. Construction took place from 1999 to 2009.

Like the BMT Franklin Avenue Line, the Frankford Elevated north of downtown, also on the Market-Frankford Line, had only its superstructure demolished. This actually had even less demolition because the original columns were reused. However, it had incomparably more design changes because the deck structure was a completely new design, having nothing to do with the previous and using the contemporary architectural design with a closed concrete deck and direct fixation track (not to be confused with the modern architectural design, which used a closed concrete deck but with ballasted track like on the IND Rockaway Line viaduct over the Rockaway Freeway, the Hell Gate Bridge on the Amtrak Northeast Corridor crossing over the East River, the Metro-North viaduct over Park Avenue, and the IRT Flushing Line viaduct over Queens Boulevard). Only the girders reused the original design, though also without rivets and with a modern steel formulation. Construction took place between 1988 and 2000, with the exception of the northernmost section, which is the Frankfort Transportation Center, having started later and finished in 2003.

[Trainmaster5]

14 hours ago, zacster said:

You are confusing the "els" with the elevated subway extensions that were built as part of the dual contracts of 1913-1920 or so.  The els were lightweight structures that mostly could not carry heavy subway cars, whereas the dual contracts extensions were built to carry the heavy subway cars, such as the BMT standards and the IRT Low-v.  Many of the original els were also connected to these extensions, but all of them are gone now.  I had a whole series of photos that I took last year of all the old el connections from street level on Subchat, but alas, subchat appears to be dead.   9th Ave to Jerome Ave, 3rd Ave to WPR, 2nd Ave to West Farms, Queensborough Plaza, Broadway Junction/Atlantic/Snediker/Van Sinderen, Myrtle/Bway, and wherever else I knew of an el connection that was no longer.  They are all hidden in plain sight.  I did them all from my bike, starting at my home base in Brooklyn I'd take pictures whenever my training rides took me near them. 

One unexpected finding was that at Queensborough Plaza there is a structure that curves away to run down Jackson St that was to be the Bklyn/Queens crosstown ELEVATED structure.  It was eventually built as the IND crosstown subway.  What surprised me is that I got pushback from all the "experts" but yet there it was in plain sight.  The plans for the el got killed before final approval of the dual contracts, but QBP was still built with trackways to accommodate it should it ever be built.  The trackways were eventually used instead to build a turnaround tail track that follows the Flushing line almost all the way to 33rd/Rawson. 

Another unexpected finding, what started me on the quest to photograph everything, was that the West End line structure ends abruptly on Stillwell Avenue and the tracks curve off towards CI yards where they meet up with the Sea Beach.  Everybody says that was the original plan, but I found something just the other day that tells me otherwise.  At the other end, at 9th Ave, the track structure follows the tracks all the way to 9th Ave.  Why would they not have built the original track structure on Stillwell the same way if it were intended to curve away?

Not everything that was built for the dual contracts is still standing either.  The 3rd Ave el on Webster was an addition that was torn down with the rest of it in The Bronx.  The 2nd Ave el's Bergen Cutoff was torn down when the 3rd Ave el stopped running.  The Fulton el in Brooklyn was upgraded in parts but then torn down when the city took over in 1940, also some parts of the structure at Atlantic Ave were recently torn down.  The Jamaica El past 121st St was torn down and put on Archer Ave instead.  The 2nd Ave el over the Queensboro Bridge was dual contracts but torn down 25 years later.

All of the dual contract lines still standing were built for and operated as subway routes. The West Farms line was built as part of the original IRT subway so it is older but still maintained as part of the subway.  The Brighton line is on an embankment and cut and replaced an earlier street level route. 

And the F train over the Gowanus Canal?  That's a bridge, not an el. 

I think we’re splitting hairs because of semantics in this thread. I don’t consider the connection between Myrtle-Broadway and Central Avenue a new El. I think the OP does. Even the  publicists never used that term. To me a track or structure repair or replacement doesn’t quite qualify as a “new” El. The Third Avenue El, Manhattan and Bronx, The Lexington Avenue and Southern Myrtle below Broadway, The Culver Shuttle, The BMT Fulton from Rockaway Avenue to Queens and the 168th Street end of the Jamaica and the Polo Grounds Shuttle were all demolished in my lifetime. New El construction in NYC along it’s streets was consigned to the dustbin years ago by the politicians and real estate people. I think the publicists for the NYCTA or the would have trumpeted new services.
That one would be exception, the JFK Airtrain, was constructed by the PANY&NJ above the Van Wyck a Federal Highway. I, too, can split hairs 😀😀😀. No argument with anyone was intended. Just a different opinion and way of thinking. Carry on.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Trainmaster5
Context

[CenSin]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:12 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

That one would be exception, the JFK Airtrain, was constructed by the PANY&NJ above the Van Wyck a Federal Highway. I, too, can split hairs 😀😀😀.

A more useful definition of “new” elevated structure might be tailored to apply to train-carrying structures built along R.O.W.s where none had previously existed.

An even more useful one might be to count only those which trespass on new pedestrian right-of-way (e.g., streets). Because those which are out of sight and out of mind are presumably not the structures being picketed against by residents, businesses, and politicians. If a train makes a racket over a busy highway and no one is around to be annoyed by it, does it make a sound?

And even by that definition, what is a “new pedestrian right-of-way” even? Take the Archer Avenue extension which effectively shifted an existing R.O.W. 2 avenues south and buried it underground. The portion of the ramp over the street connecting it to the existing elevated structure is no more than 150~200 feet from its original alignment. Has anything really changed for the residents and businesses of the area?

My conclusion: no new elevated lines have been built for a century.

On 8/11/2022 at 7:12 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

I don’t consider the connection between Myrtle-Broadway and Central Avenue a new El. I think the OP does.

The Ship of Theseus comes to mind. 🙂

Edited August 13, 2022 by CenSin
Duplicate word

[00crashtest]

3 hours ago, CenSin said:

My conclusion: no new elevated lines have been built for a century.

False. Besides the PANYNJ Airtrain JFK, the IND Rockaway Line viaduct over the Rockaway Freeway was built in 1940-1942 by the LIRR for the predecessor Rockaway Division. No elevated railway has previously existed on that site.

[bulk88]

On 8/9/2022 at 10:49 PM, trainfan22 said:

The newest stretch of ELs I believe is the N/Q/F tracks at Stillwell. I remember riding out to Stillwell on the Brighton local and those tracks were concrete before the rebuild of the station.

 

Part of the El between 121 Street and Stuphin Blvd is fairly new. Outside of those two examples most of the ELs in NYC has to be around 90 to 100 years old on average 

Babylon line is the 2nd newest EL in NY. 23 miles of lines were built.

[trainfan22]

45 minutes ago, bulk88 said:

Babylon line is the 2nd newest EL in NY. 23 miles of lines were built.

Yeah, but that's in Long Island and the LIRR, not NYC and not NYCT. 

 

 

Unless.... the Babylon Branch had RR crossings in Queens? Genuinely asking, I always thought the Babylon Branch RR crossing elimination project was only between Valley Stream and Babylon.

Edited August 16, 2022 by trainfan22