Why is there so much weekend work?

[bobtehpanda]

lol... Let's not go crazy talking about how "unique" and fantastic that is...

 

I don't know about you, but rerouting around a work area is much better than the alternative, which is usually full suspension or delay-prone single tracking in other places.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't know about you, but rerouting around a work area is much better than the alternative, which is usually full suspension or delay-prone single tracking in other places.

In my mind, re-routes around a work area should be a given, considering the large transportation network here in the Metropolitan area. I saw it all of the time when using the rail system in Europe.

[bobtehpanda]

In my mind, re-routes around a work area should be a given, considering the large transportation network here in the Metropolitan area. I saw it all of the time when using the rail system in Europe.

 

It's doable for mainline rail, but it's extremely rare for metro/subway systems, which tend to operate lines independently of each other and have few links between them; certainly nothing like the interweaving trunk lines that exist in New York.

[AndrewJC]

And the solution also can't be to keep knocking out train service during the weekends either... 

 

Did you have an alternative solution to propose? If the work has to get done, and it can't be done under traffic or at night, then when would you like it to get done?

 

Weekend shutdowns are common for subway systems that are old, or getting old. That the system has enough flexibility to simply redirect trains around certain areas is a miracle in and of itself, since other systems do not have this kind of redundancy built in.

 

For example: https://tfl.gov.uk/forms/12392.aspx

 

Sure, you could move some of the work onto the weekdays, 

 

Not in most cases - there wouldn't be enough capacity to handle the rush hour ridership. Weekend ridership is still nowhere close to rush hour ridership. Think about the impact of the Queens Blvd. interlocking work in progress now and the upcoming CBTC work if it took place during rush hours.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Did you have an alternative solution to propose? If the work has to get done, and it can't be done under traffic or at night, then when would you like it to get done?

Yeah, as I've said plenty of times, I support shutting down segments of lines for months at a time until the work is done via a blitz attack. Something similar to Fastrack, but for several months at the time, this way the work is done faster, and you don't have this piecemeal BS. By the time they finish everything the piecemeal route, the station needs to be re-done again.

[Lance]

Thing is, nobody's going to go for that. Riders have to get to work, school, etc. They're not going to accept shuttle buses during the rush hours, especially on lines that don't have a nearby alternative.

 

There's also the logistical impossibility of shutting down lines for long-term periods of time. You'd need more shuttle buses on weekdays than you'd see during regular weekend disruptions. Where are those buses coming from? Last I checked, a lot of those buses are used in regular bus service during the work week.

 

I get where you're coming from because it would put an end to the seemingly endless construction, but shutting down sections of the subway is a non-starter. Weekend disruptions are unwelcome, but they are pretty much the only way to maintain the subway without causing too much disruption to people's lives.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Thing is, nobody's going to go for that. Riders have to get to work, school, etc. They're not going to accept shuttle buses during the rush hours, especially on lines that don't have a nearby alternative.

 

There's also the logistical impossibility of shutting down lines for long-term periods of time. You'd need more shuttle buses on weekdays than you'd see during regular weekend disruptions. Where are those buses coming from? Last I checked, a lot of those buses are used in regular bus service during the work week.

 

I get where you're coming from because it would put an end to the seemingly endless construction, but shutting down sections of the subway is a non-starter. Weekend disruptions are unwelcome, but they are pretty much the only way to maintain the subway without causing too much disruption to people's lives.

They're already doing that with some stations though... This would simply be a larger expansion of that. They just did it on the for a few stations, and also on the for a few stations. You do this for a few stations at a time and let the trains bypass the stations where needed and set it up that way. Let passengers use nearby stations. That eliminates the need for shuttle buses and allows the work to proceed quicker.

[Fresh Pond]

They're already doing that with some stations though... This would simply be a larger expansion of that. They just did it on the for a few stations, and also on the for a few stations. You do this for a few stations at a time and let the trains bypass the stations where needed and set it up that way. Let passengers use nearby stations. That eliminates the need for shuttle buses and allows the work to proceed quicker.

Those are both 2 completely different situations...

 

For the , there's regular local buses that through the affected areas already, so if one doesn't feel like walking an extra station, they can just catch the bus

 

For the Q, they shut down one side at a time and built temporary platforms for the closed side (sans Avenue U and Neck Rd).

 

Look at how it went in the Rockaways when the was knocked out, and the sheer amount of buses it took

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Those are both 2 completely different situations...

 

For the , there's regular local buses that through the affected areas already, so if one doesn't feel like walking an extra station, they can just catch the bus

 

For the Q, they shut down one side at a time and built temporary platforms for the closed side (sans Avenue U and Neck Rd).

 

Look at how it went in the Rockaways when the was knocked out, and the sheer amount of buses it took

Well they need to set something up where they can avoid using shuttle buses and still do the work quickly and it can be done if it's done right.

[Fresh Pond]

Well they need to set something up where they can avoid using shuttle buses and still do the work quickly and it can be done if it's done right.

It's impossible with a system this old, complex, and the amount of ridership it has. Either way you look at it, someone gets screwed over, you can't cater to everyone

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's impossible with a system this old, complex, and the amount of ridership it has. Either way you look at it, someone gets screwed over, you can't cater to everyone

Well of course. We're talking about ways to get projects done quicker with less piece meal involved, not catering to everyone.

[Lance]

And we're telling you it can't be done via long-term continuous shutdowns. As Fresh Pond stated, you can't equate a full-time station closure with a line closure. Look at the Flushing weekend shutdowns for CBTC. When the MTA announced their plans to suspend service west of Queensboro Plaza for over a dozen weekends, riders and business owners in LIC were livid. People were calling their elected officials, who in turn tried to pressure the MTA into reducing the number of weekends the line would be closed. Now, imagine the backlash that would come with a full-time closure proposal.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

And we're telling you it can't be done via long-term continuous shutdowns. As Fresh Pond stated, you can't equate a full-time station closure with a line closure. Look at the Flushing weekend shutdowns for CBTC. When the MTA announced their plans to suspend service west of Queensboro Plaza for over a dozen weekends, riders and business owners in LIC were livid. People were calling their elected officials, who in turn tried to pressure the MTA into reducing the number of weekends the line would be closed. Now, imagine the backlash that would come with a full-time closure proposal.

When did I say this could be a plan for all stations??? A little quick to jump to conclusions. Obviously it is not possible at every station, but clearly it IS possible at some stations, as previous projects have shown. All I am saying is that where possible, this should be done more.

[AndrewJC]

They're already doing that with some stations though... This would simply be a larger expansion of that. They just did it on the for a few stations, and also on the for a few stations. You do this for a few stations at a time and let the trains bypass the stations where needed and set it up that way. Let passengers use nearby stations. That eliminates the need for shuttle buses and allows the work to proceed quicker.

That's great for station rehabs - and it's already quite common for station rehabs, at least at stations that aren't so busy that adjacent stations would be overwhelmed by a closure.

 

But signal work requires track outages and often also requires flagging, which reduces capacity on the other tracks. The Manhattan trunks and several outer borough lines (most notably Queens Blvd., currently in the early stages of years worth of signal work) would simply be unable to handle anywhere close to their normal rush hour loads. GO's on weekends are an inconvenience, but in the end they manage to carry everyone who needs to travel. On weekdays, very large numbers of riders would simply be unable to get to work - for months at a time!

 

Where 24/7 track outages are feasible, they're already in use. See, for instance, the current 24/7 closure of track C1 on part of the Concourse line, or the long-term track outages on the Brighton line during the station rehabs south of Newkirk. The Montague tube could be closed because it has the lowest ridership of all of the East River tubes and it has alternative routes with (despite all the whining) spare capacity. The upcoming Greenpoint outage will be more painful, due to the lack of alternate routes (aside from the shuttle bus and B62), but, again, we're talking about a relatively low ridership line during the summer, when rush hour ridership is naturally down.

 

But that strategy is not applicable everywhere.

[AndrewJC]

Look at the Flushing weekend shutdowns for CBTC. When the MTA announced their plans to suspend service west of Queensboro Plaza for over a dozen weekends, riders and business owners in LIC were livid. People were calling their elected officials, who in turn tried to pressure the MTA into reducing the number of weekends the line would be closed. Now, imagine the backlash that would come with a full-time closure proposal.

More critical than the backlash is that the resulting service simply wouldn't be able to handle more than a small fraction of current rush hour 7 riders. How are the others expected to get to work?

[Lance]

When did I say this could be a plan for all stations??? A little quick to jump to conclusions. Obviously it is not possible at every station, but clearly it IS possible at some stations, as previous projects have shown. All I am saying is that where possible, this should be done more.

Where did I say you intended it to be the answer for all subway work? I'm just going by your previous comments. Here's what you said earlier:

 

Yeah, as I've said plenty of times, I support shutting down segments of lines for months at a time until the work is done via a blitz attack. Something similar to Fastrack, but for several months at the time, this way the work is done faster, and you don't have this piecemeal BS. By the time they finish everything the piecemeal route, the station needs to be re-done again.

I used Flushing as an example because it's one of many lines where your kind of long-term shutdowns would severely impact people's lives. As I've said before, there are few places where a continuous line closure would be possible. Maybe the midtown lines, though riders would have to deal with severe overcrowding on adjacent lines. Most other lines are too far away from each other to be viable alternatives. That means you've got to run shuttle buses, the number of which required to replace any service likely isn't available. And before anyone says anything, the Montague tube shutdown is/was possible only because it's the least used East River subway tunnel.

 

But since you're adamant on this, which lines would you consider for a full-time shutdown? I'm honestly quite curious.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Where did I say you intended it to be the answer for all subway work? I'm just going by your previous comments. Here's what you said earlier:

 

I used Flushing as an example because it's one of many lines where your kind of long-term shutdowns would severely impact people's lives. As I've said before, there are few places where a continuous line closure would be possible. Maybe the midtown lines, though riders would have to deal with severe overcrowding on adjacent lines. Most other lines are too far away from each other to be viable alternatives. That means you've got to run shuttle buses, the number of which required to replace any service likely isn't available. And before anyone says anything, the Montague tube shutdown is/was possible only because it's the least used East River subway tunnel.

 

But since you're adamant on this, which lines would you consider for a full-time shutdown? I'm honestly quite curious.

None... I never said full shutdowns... I said SEGMENTS of lines... Two very different things...

[Lance]

Let's not get pedantic, okay? I know damn well what you meant. If I had any inclination to believe you meant a full line like the entirety of one of the Manhattan trunks or something of that nature, I wouldn't have bothered responding because the whole thing would've too ludicrous to take seriously. We're both talking about the same thing and my previous responses reflect that. That's why I used the example of the Flushing shutdowns between Times Square and Queensboro, rather than a hypothetical of some full Flushing suspension for the entire line. Either way, you'd still shut down a section of a line (clear enough for you?) full-time because you wouldn't be able to provide adequate enough shuttle bus service to meet demand at a time when it'd be desperately needed.

 

By the way, you still didn't answer my question as to which sections you'd consider.