Why is there so much weekend work?

[Eric B]

The majority of weekend work is outside contracting mostly electrical and infrastructural.

 

Especially in the tunnels , so it's kinda difficult to have workers running fiber optic cables while you are doing track work and or third rail work and or signal work...

 

 

So it's better to have the track, signal and third rail work done under train trafic? All they do is increase the flagging rules, but operations is still more dangerous and both disruptive and disrupted to MOW work than the workers are to each other.

[bobtehpanda]

Which is precisely what I think should happen in some cases... They should shut down more stations to ensure that the work is done properly and quickly rather than in bits and pieces.  It would be a pain but folks would adjust.

 

The problem with this is that you can risk killing ridership, especially where nearby alternatives are available. When the southern section of the Green Line in Chicago was shut down for a months-long repair job, ridership on bus routes that fed it instead transferred to the Red Line. They didn't stop doing that when the Green Line opened, and ever since then it has always had significantly lower ridership than the Red Line. It also doesn't get rid of weekend work, since weekend work is usually more signal and rail oriented (unless you stop running through service at these shut down stations as well, which brings on a host of other problems.)

[MTA Dude]

There needs to be a new weekend Fastrack program that targets elevated lines. Just like the Fastrack on the in Coney Island, they should rename some projects and use Fastrack to fix elevated lines. The track work on should be renamed to Fastrack, and the on Jerome. 

[RTOMan]

So it's better to have the track, signal and third rail work done under train trafic? All they do is increase the flagging rules, but operations is still more dangerous and both disruptive and disrupted to MOW work than the workers are to each other.

 

Track Signal and third rail has always been under flagging... 

[traingoat]

They do it the best way they can come up with. They have closed sections of a line like they did with Lefferds on the A to repair and restore the stations til the next express stop and it takes switch placement and a couple of buses to continue the service You can't shut down the Flushing line during the week as you would have a riot but get away with it on weekends by reducing or eliminating service. Every line can be rebuilt, repaired and anything else only with proper planing. Many years ago before most of the members were born the had to rerail the entire Flushing line from Queens Plaza to main Street. They did it during the day and night and weekends. The system was fully operational during rush hours but during the hours of 9 to 5 they shut down tracks skipping stations and from 10 pm to 6 am same thing was done They completed all the trackwork within 4 months including replacement of switches and upgrades to switch heaters. This was done in the 50's and they had paper posters up at all stations. They also did something similar when they placed concrete platforms down as I remember when they were wood planks. Once a station is taken out of service and they intend on totally rebuilding it by planing its a couple of months and a new one appears with repair of all beams and underpinnings.

[AndrewJC]

I mean after all, the whole point of Fastrack (at least from my understanding) was to lessen the amount and frequency of weekend work.

 

That was never the point of FASTRACK. The stated goal was to permit greater productivity in maintenance work that normally takes place "under traffic" (i.e., between trains).

 

Here's the announcement of the first FASTRACK corridor: http://www.mta.info/press-release/nyc-transit/fastrack-lexington-avenue-4-5-6-line

 

As others have been saying, large-scale work still requires full weekend outages, and that isn't going to change regardless of how much we wish it would. You're castigating the MTA for failing to fulfill a promise that they never made. Major capital projects - and there are many in the pipeline - will continue to require weekend shutdowns.

[Eric B]

Track Signal and third rail has always been under flagging... 

I know, but there seems to be so much more of it going on now (and then the stuff still breaks), it too needs to be coordinated better, like under Fastrack, and with other projects, as possible.

[traingoat]

I know, but there seems to be so much more of it going on now (and then the stuff still breaks), it too needs to be coordinated better, like under Fastrack, and with other projects, as possible.

You can do everything at once when you are tearing down to the roadbed as rails,ties and everything can be removed and replaced at one time but upgrading an existing system is rough without problems of failure because of the fact competing systems. So I have to upgrade with something that's compatible with the existing system even though its the latest and greatest. Its like the computers over the years with Windows 7 not being able to run DOS programs without help or running early Windoes 3.1 programs. This is what they are dealing with and hence the repeat performances

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That was never the point of FASTRACK. The stated goal was to permit greater productivity in maintenance work that normally takes place "under traffic" (i.e., between trains).

 

Here's the announcement of the first FASTRACK corridor: http://www.mta.info/press-release/nyc-transit/fastrack-lexington-avenue-4-5-6-line

 

As others have been saying, large-scale work still requires full weekend outages, and that isn't going to change regardless of how much we wish it would. You're castigating the MTA for failing to fulfill a promise that they never made. Major capital projects - and there are many in the pipeline - will continue to require weekend shutdowns.

Well they did mention the fact that ridership was growing on the weekends (which was pretty evident looking at the loads on trains), and that they needed to try to do less work on weekends... If Fastrack isn't the answer, then how exactly do they plan on doing that? In my mind, they didn't make that comment just because.... It was made because a growing number of people travel via the subway on weekends, not just for fun, but for work, school, and other pertinent activities.

The problem with this is that you can risk killing ridership, especially where nearby alternatives are available. When the southern section of the Green Line in Chicago was shut down for a months-long repair job, ridership on bus routes that fed it instead transferred to the Red Line. They didn't stop doing that when the Green Line opened, and ever since then it has always had significantly lower ridership than the Red Line. It also doesn't get rid of weekend work, since weekend work is usually more signal and rail oriented (unless you stop running through service at these shut down stations as well, which brings on a host of other problems.)

I think the wise thing to do is to make sure that you do as much as possible to make riders aware of their alternatives.  Aside from that, New York is a completely different animal.  Most New Yorkers (especially the younger population from my generation on down) have a decent grasp of the subway system, even those that may not use it regularly.  I don't like the subway and I try to avoid using it where possible, but for the most part I know the lines inside out and know my alternatives unless I'm in a part of the city that I've never been in before.  Aside from that unless you're underground, you can access the website fairly easily to obtain updates.

[Wallyhorse]

Well they did mention the fact that ridership was growing on the weekends (which was pretty evident looking at the loads on trains), and that they needed to try to do less work on weekends... If Fastrack isn't the answer, then how exactly do they plan on doing that? In my mind, they didn't make that comment just because.... It was made because a growing number of people travel via the subway on weekends, not just for fun, but for work, school, and other pertinent activities.

 

I think the wise thing to do is to make sure that you do as much as possible to make riders aware of their alternatives.  Aside from that, New York is a completely different animal.  Most New Yorkers (especially the younger population from my generation on down) have a decent grasp of the subway system, even those that may not use it regularly.  I don't like the subway and I try to avoid using it where possible, but for the most part I know the lines inside out and know my alternatives unless I'm in a part of the city that I've never been in before.  Aside from that unless you're underground, you can access the website fairly easily to obtain updates.

Exactly on alternate routes.  That was rule #1 for me as a kid: Know your alternate routes in case of the unforeseen!

 

It's something riders need to know anyway!

[dp142]

Most of the lack of productivity comes with all the new safety rules put into place, as well as System Safety and Department managers auditing other departments to where it becomes a Grudge match. The tools and technology have come a long way in the last 20 years but you still have Ineffective management and each department from RTO, Track, Signal and 3rd Rail are all dependent on each other to get Track work done. It's even worse with Fast Track.

 

When first starting in Track Dept. it's drilled into you that the purpose of the Transit system is to move people uninterrupted!

 

Track department can replace previously laid out stringers (CWR) on any given night with a G.O. A total of 20 Running rails. 10 East and 10 west side of Track.

Without a G.O. they put in stick (single) rails under service.

When I first came into 3Rd rail we replaced one to two contact rail a night live and in service under flagging protection as well as cut out side approaches (Aprons).

 

When maintenance work is performed under a G.O. It's usually scheduled for midnight for the G.O. to go in effect. At that time the Trains begin their re-route. Power still does not go off for another 1 1/2 to 2 hours until RCC (who owns the Tracks) gives up the track to Track department after ensuring all departments have set out their Red lights and Trips (limits). Once RCC gives the Track up, System Operations is informed they can remove power thru their sub stations after checking with 3rd Rail that any positive feeder cables needing removal from the 3rd rail and any Jumpers needing installing have been done. Once that's confirmed then power is removed. As I said usually by 1:30-2:00am.

 

Then Track enters the roadbed and begins setting up while waiting for 3rd Rail and signal to arrive on the same re-routes passengers take. We have no special vans or vehicles that take us around. Once there Track is in control. They can and have kicked supporting departments off the track if they feel you are in their way since we are all on top of each other. Some supervisors have little to no regard in working together.

Either way, everyone has to get their work done, always on top of each other, by 4:00-4:30 for that track to go back in service.

 

Problem is everyone is scared with the way safety is enforced. Lights used for Flagging are being opened up to see if the bulb is LED or not the cords used on a portable train stop is being measured to make sure it's 4-6' long. That there is a knurled nut as opposed to a square nut on a portable train stop, etc.

Since the workers are being held responsible if things are not correct along with supervisiors we won't do the job for fear of getting time in the street if everything is not perfect. 

 

Fast track is worse in the sense that power is not removed because it takes to long. Everyone, unless a contractor is nearby, works live and has to set up their own flagging just like any other night. Now that we are all on top of each other though your coordinating flagging with others dept's. That takes time.

Also, Live means MORE safety equipment has to be brought out! More workers going back and forth to the street for truck deliveries, More safety audits are done and the newer employees (last 10 years) are not used to working live and therefor take much longer then "back in the day." 

 

In my opinion Fast Track is just visually appealing when you see about a hundred workers in one area. As for safety- It's a step backwards.

[Eric B]

Wow, never knew all of that. 

To me, a lot of the problem is this "totally separate entity" approach with the different departments involved. (I've seen lots of problems with that). That it takes that long to remove and restore power is ridiculous...

So they should next begin working on  coordinating that better, like having field representatives from these departments, who can pass along the readiness status and instructions in closer to live time.

[dp142]

Third rail power is removed from various locations within the G. O. limits. Each Third rail group group calls System Operations to let them know thier task is complete by or before midnight. This way if power goes off late it's not our fault.

 

Also we deal with man power shortages. The tasks involved at different stations require from 2-6 men (more depending on flagging requirements) to complete. When the supervisior complains to management that more men are needed we're told do everything in stages, One location after another. Again, we have no vehicle so that means waiting on the same trains as everyone else.

 

Everyone waits on RCC. It's when they have their trains clear and out of the area and all the work trains are in position for the various G.O.'s and off the tracks being used for service will they allow power to be removed.

[Union Tpke]

thanks for the info!

[MHV9218]

Just to remind some general context, weekend work is a Jay Walder innovation. The MTA had a tradition of long, slow work where things were done while service went on and safety protocols (as mentioned) and sheer lack of space meant things were inefficient. Jay Walder came from London, where work means an entire line is shut. Indeed, it's not uncommon to come to London on a weekend and find the entire Jubilee Line shut. While annoying, it means work is done more quickly and efficiently and weekday service is improved. Walder brought the tactic to the city, and as a whole, it worked. Fasttrack and other innovations only continue the concept of large-scale work, and when well-run, they are important devices. Weekend work is a good thing. 

[dp142]

Key words "When well-run."

[SubwayGuy]

Jay Walder was one of the worst things to happen to Transit in quite some time.

 

As for the (lack of) interoperability of the various departments, sadly that is one of the biggest problems down here in Transit contributing to delays and inefficiency. There's not enough dialogue between various departments IMO.

[dp142]

I really wonder if it's not enough dialogue or if they just don't care.

 

The managers from all departments- Track, Structure, Signal and 3Rd rail have a "Production meeting" once a week. These are Managers responsible for a number of supervisors and work gangs on any given tour. They are not too far removed from the actual work.

 

Supposedly they sit down and discuss where a G.O. is going to be and all the work that can be done in that area. Figure out who will be in who's way, How each dept. can help the other to reduce cost and time and who to get things done more efficiently.

 

However, On Friday night you would think no one talked to each other or relayed anything to the line supervisors. The managers really need to back on the Track to see first hand what goes on and the some of the redundacy that takes place.

 

You have a fews good line supervisors that take the time making phone calls to try to arrange with other departments and plan before the G.O. goes in effect but they can only get so far.

[SubwayGuy]

I really wonder if it's not enough dialogue or if they just don't care.

 

The managers from all departments- Track, Structure, Signal and 3Rd rail have a "Production meeting" once a week. These are Managers responsible for a number of supervisors and work gangs on any given tour. They are not too far removed from the actual work.

 

Supposedly they sit down and discuss where a G.O. is going to be and all the work that can be done in that area. Figure out who will be in who's way, How each dept. can help the other to reduce cost and time and who to get things done more efficiently.

 

However, On Friday night you would think no one talked to each other or relayed anything to the line supervisors. The managers really need to back on the Track to see first hand what goes on and the some of the redundacy that takes place.

 

You have a fews good line supervisors that take the time making phone calls to try to arrange with other departments and plan before the G.O. goes in effect but they can only get so far.

 

That's the problem. Those meetings take place at very high levels, and that's it. The people with "boots on the ground" need to be talking and coordinating.

 

Same goes for RTO with other departments. If we experience a problem train, call it in, get a TSS and RCI to agree that it needs to come out of service, and it goes in the shop...that's usually the last we hear of it. We never find out what the exact defect was unless we go to the shop the car was returned to a week or two after and take the initiative/interest to ask one of the guys in the barn if they know, or could look it up for us. That's information that can help us do our jobs better since you can relate the problem condition to a specific defective part, which helps when reporting the problem.

 

Likewise if the shop is behind on their inspections, they're not the ones that are going to be calling the crew office asking for T/Os to help them make the moves they need to complete them. The only ones who will are the T/D's, who after being notified by the shop, will ask the people already there if they want to work late clears, and that's it. The T/D's can call the crew office, but it rarely goes that far. Of course, the T/Os at the location may have plans after work, so they are not required to stay. But if they can't, now you don't have personnel to do the moves, and inspections fall behind. If the barn falls too far behind, they will have trouble putting out enough trains for service.

 

Each hand washes the other in TA, and more coordination would make a lot of things run much more efficiently.

[dp142]

Prime example in our Department-

 

We are issued Rubber gloves with protective gauntlets (leather gloves that go over the rubber ones) To be worn when working on the 3rd Rail live. The have an expiration date stamped on them 6 months from the date being issued. If you are caught working on or within a foot of anything live without them they try to give you 30 days suspension.

 

NOW, If we are all issued them at the same time guess what? They all expire at the same time! So we can refuse work on or around the 3rd Rail now.

 

We are to turn them in before the expiration date and they are sent out to one of the yards for testing. If they fail the test they are thrown out. No one gets notified, No new pair are issued, no memo, no receipts or anything sent. You just don't get them back.

 

The testing takes about 3 months in house (Yes! 3 months) which is even more ridiculous.

 

we are now issued 2 pair staggered months apart but you have to follow with phone calls constantly to find out if you'll ever get them back once sent in for testing.

[AndrewJC]

Well they did mention the fact that ridership was growing on the weekends (which was pretty evident looking at the loads on trains), and that they needed to try to do less work on weekends... If Fastrack isn't the answer, then how exactly do they plan on doing that? In my mind, they didn't make that comment just because.... It was made because a growing number of people travel via the subway on weekends, not just for fun, but for work, school, and other pertinent activities.

 

That ridership has been increasing on weekends creates a real challenge, but the solution to the challenge is not to neglect maintenance or capital rebuilding.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That ridership has been increasing on weekends creates a real challenge, but the solution to the challenge is not to neglect maintenance or capital rebuilding.

And the solution also can't be to keep knocking out train service during the weekends either... 

[bobtehpanda]

And the solution also can't be to keep knocking out train service during the weekends either... 

 

I mean, it's not as if the MTA can create a separate day of the week or another couple hours in a day. Having regular train service across the system and also keeping the system in the state of good repair is like having your cake and eating it too.

 

Weekend shutdowns are common for subway systems that are old, or getting old. That the system has enough flexibility to simply redirect trains around certain areas is a miracle in and of itself, since other systems do not have this kind of redundancy built in.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I mean, it's not as if the MTA can create a separate day of the week or another couple hours in a day. Having regular train service across the system and also keeping the system in the state of good repair is like having your cake and eating it too.

 

Weekend shutdowns are common for subway systems that are old, or getting old. That the system has enough flexibility to simply redirect trains around certain areas is a miracle in and of itself, since other systems do not have this kind of redundancy built in.

lol... Let's not go crazy talking about how "unique" and fantastic that is...

[Lance]

It does raise a question though. You talk about there being too much weekend work, but also state you don't want to inconvenience people with shutdowns and what-nots. How would you approach curtailing weekend work while still maintaining the relatively good service riders experience now? Sure, you could move some of the work onto the weekdays, but the fact remains that, even though the ratio between weekday to weekend workers has shrunk, more riders will still be affected by weekday shutdowns than weekend ones. Piggybacking off the earlier discussion of management ineptitude when it comes to coordination, even if there was better coordination, that still won't change when work can be done.