R42N

Here’s a crazy proposal that’ll never happen, but is an interesting thought nonetheless. So, it’s no secret that the Nassau Line is considerably underused (has two abandoned tracks) and lacks is probably the most under maintained. Well, if Phase 3/4 gets going on the SAS, here is my proposal: Instead of terminating the down in Hanover Square (which would only further reduce the number of Nassau passengers), you could combine it down a newly renovated Nassau Avenue Line. Here’s what I suggest: Close the on Nassau Avenue for 3-5 years, and completely renovate the line from top to bottom. It would be considerably less expensive, since all the structure is in place and there would be an extra incentive to renovate the Nassau Avenue Line (the extra passengers.) While the Nassau Avenue Line is being renovated, you could combine the and the , by running the down through W4st, Christie St, and running the route between Essex Avenue and Jamaica Center. Then, when the Nassau Line is fully renovated, the Teal will run down to the new Broad St with the . Far out there, but thoughts?

Exactly, the only way you would be able to do it before the R211’s is if you hold on to both the R32’s and the R42’s, but that’s getting increasingly harder with their age getting a little too high. If you did that, however, then you’d be able to send the R179’s to the , send the leftover R32/42 to the , and then send some R68 to the / to cover the extra SAS service, but that’s a lot of fleet switching. And, again, the R32/42 are going to have to be retired soon.

All true, but as someone who uses CASH often, there is something good about handing the guy my Metrocard and a $20 Bill and say fill it up. Not only is it pleasant to speak to somebody, he or she is typically so much faster than the MVM’s, where one has to press 8 buttons.

That would also have to wait until the R211’s, as R32’s and R42’s can’t operate in the Montague Tunnel after the Sandy refurbishment. Also, even if they avoided that by switching fleets around, it would be highly un-likely due to the fact that the Nassau St service just wasn’t popular.

Ok, that’s what I thought, so you’re betting they might add an or so, but nothing else until 2018-2019? Sounds right....

As someone that doesn’t know how this works, can someone weigh in with percentage possibilities of what change will happen by the end of the year? For me, it’s: 50%: Stick with Status Quo 25%: Add one more or as an interim fix 25%: Drastic re-design with Second 4th Ave Lcl/One Astoria Service

So, putting those mega-proposals to the side. What's the most likely option? I don't think Whitehall can turn any more trains than it can right now, and Astoria isn't going to budge about TPH. You can't add any service until you take the off the Manhathan Bridge to de-congest DeKalb. All I know is there is no way that the drastic change that we've been proposing will take place this fall. People will slam the MTA for miscalculating and the added confusion. Bay Ridge is a suitable option for service , but isn't that too much switching?

Really? I’m surprised. I’ve heard that they are planning on running an or two, but isn’t that it? If I understand this correctly, you want to turn those 2 extra ’s that I’m proposing to short turn at Kings Hwy at Ocean Parkway. My only problem with that is the merging issues you’d have north and south of the Aquarium station. Not to mention the wait times if both platforms at Stilwell are utilized. I think you could short-turn one at Kings Highway and the other one at 86st. That way, you are not really fumigating, as most passengers would have already been off.

Cool graphic, and I’ll be happy to list out the peak rush TPH: Astoria: Currently - ’s to Coney Island [6-7 TPH] ’s to Whitehall [6 TPH] ~ Total: 12-13 TPH Proposal - ’s to Coney Island [8 TPH] ’s to Whitehall [4-5 TPH] ~ 12-13 TPH Second Avenue: Currently - ’s to Coney Island via Brighton [10 TPH] ’s to Coney Island [1 TPH] ~ Total: 11 TPH Proposal - ’s to Coney Island via Brigton [11 TPH], ’s to Brooklyn/Coney [6 TPH] ~ Total: 17 TPH Coney Island Sea Beach: Currently - (N)/ Rush(W)’s to Astoria & Signed ’s to 96 [11 TPH] ~ Total: 11 TPH Proposal - ’s to Astoria [8 TPH] & ’s to Second Avenue [4 TPH] ~ Total: 11-12 TPH Ninth Avenue or Kings Highway: Currently - N/A Proposal - ’s to Second Avenue [2 TPH] Whitehall Street: Currently - ’s to Astoria: [6 TPH] Proposal - ’s to Astoria: [4-5 TPH] So, to recap, Sea Beach service increases from 11 TPH to 14 TPH, DeKalb bottleneck decreases, which allows ’s to increase from 10 TPH to 11 TPH, Astoria stays at it’s max 12-13 TPH, and Second Avenue increases from 11 to 17 TPH, a 35% increase in TPH, which is an good figure.

Unfortunately, (or fortunately) none of these ideas are currently being proposed from the MTA, who will probably cherry pick to add a few ’s before doing something drastic like one of these proposals.

When did I say anything about a through train? They would both terminate on the current platform. The TPH would increase by 1-2. Which is more the manageable. The platform, in comparison, turns more now than the (N)/(W) would in my proposal.

Sorry, but I disagree with you. At it’s peak, the runs at 10 TPH out of Stilwell, that number would decrease to 7, and you would add about 4 TPH from Coney Island. The other 1-2 TPH on the new , as previously mentioned would short turn at either 9th Ave or Kings Highway, so the number of / ’s coming out of Stilwell would increase from 10 TPH to 11 TPH, not an impossible figure by any stretch of the imagination, especially when you consider that Ditmars, which is less flexible than Coney Island, has 14+ TPH.

Yep, with a few minor adjustments, you solve all problems this way. 4th Avenue gets a second local service to Financial/Lower Mnhthn that it's been deprived of since 2010 when the left, Sea Beach gets an option of Midtown Express or Finacian District Local. doesn't get as overcrowded by B/Q/D/N transfers at 36th and DeKalb, and Astoria riders get something they can agree on. The Weekend might not be best right now, but down the road, that could be a possibility.

Responses to your points: 1) Yes, I switched the designations. While it shouldn't effect service pattern, all of my colleagues at my company refer to the line as the / , as that was is most familiarly known as. In Ditmars, Last Stop Cafe, Mike's Diner, and Medetierainian Foods all have some sort of permanent artwork/murals depicting the in Astoria. In Bensonhurst, all of the posters depict restoration to the , as the constant in the ever-changing restoration work. Remember the (V)/(M) merger? Despite swallowing up all but one of the Stops, and serving zero Nassau or Southern Brooklyn stops, the MTA chose the designation as that was more universially accespted and recognized within the community. Same applies here. 2) The Weekend service would still run over the bridge, and with all of the restoration work up the 4th Ave Tunnel, there would be no guarantees it would go either local or express. This would really only be the case if the express tunnels were to be OOS between 36 and 59. This gives Sea Beach passengers the option of Financial District on Weekdays in the (and eliminate a transfer to the ) or a midtown express via Bridge in the . 3) Perhaps you didnt read it all. Some (N)'s would short-turn southbound at Whitehall, which would reduce the number of TPH of (N)'s out of Sea Beach from 10 to 7. Then, you could add the 4-5 Express (maybe from Coney like Wallyhorse smartly pointed out if you don't want Kings Hwy fumigation). And have 1-2 (W)'s short turn at 9ave. That's 7 extra TPH up SAS (an increase from 15 to 22, which is probably the most 2nd Ave could host as of now), and 2 extra TPH up Sea Beach, and the same amounts up Astoria. And, considering only 6-7 (W)'s would run per hour (not nearly as much as the current of 10), you would have space to add a or two since Dekalb would have less stress.

So Basically, for clarity, here’s what I think is the best case scenario if you must have 1 local Astoria Line and no 34th Street switching: : NO CHANGE - 96st-Coney Island via Broadway Express, all times (Broadway Local Late Nights) : NO CHANGE - Forest Hills- Bay Ridge via Broadway Local (Northbound terminus Whitehall Late Nights) : Astoria-Coney Island, all times, via Broadway/4th Ave Local, Montague, via Sea Beach. Some southbound short turns at Whitehall during Rush to allow for at Kings Hwy (Operates over bridge Weekends, maybe) , mimicking the old route: 96st/2nd Ave-Kings Highway or 9th Ave if 4ave Exp tunnel is under construction: Weekdays, Broadway Express, via Bridge, 4th Ave Express to Kings Highway, with 15 min headways during Middays (so most Sea Beach commuters get Weekday Express and Weekend Bridge service) This, way, there is no merging issues, DeKalb doesn’t have as many weekday Broadway Bridge traffic, so there is more flexibility, and neither Sea Beach or Astoria passengers would feel like they are getting played, as all of Sea Beach but Ave U and 86st keeps an Express, and Astoria keeps a weekend Bridge, full-time line. Does that align with your idea better?

That’s different, that’s a train skipping stations but still running the same route to the same destination. Plenty of trains do that, this is have having a route go up to Harlem during peak periods, and into LIC/Astoria in Queens during other times, and going via Montague during even less-occupied times. The only similarity I can think of is when the went via 63rd Street to 21st-Queensbridge during Evenings and Weekends in the late 90s early 2000s. And that was quite a mess, with the (Orange Q) during peak periods, a grey area overlap with evenings and weekends , and a late night Shuttle (Orange S). It would be considerably easier to have the full-time Astoria route be the Broadway Local/4th Ave Local through Sea Beach to Coney, and have the new supplemental express go up 2ave, via Bridge, and terminate somewhere in Brooklyn, like 9ave, Bay Pkwy, or even somewhere along Sea Beach.

Thanks, this makes sense. I’m sorry if you think I was stubborn with the lettering, it’s just that my mind doesn’t process that right with them. When I see the letters, my association with them in the past makes me critical of the service patterns, psychological I guess. Also, your notation at the end is true, "You could further reduce merges by running the Sea Beach service via tunnel and 4 Av local but that would really piss off 4th Avenue riders and overwhelm the already packed train) However, if the express tunnel between 36 street and 59th street does have to close for a year plus like was reported, that would be a golden opportunity to do just that, and send the secondary line that would be the Weekday 2nd Avenue Express to West End (9th Avenue, maybe) Thoughts on that?

Is there some sort of law that says the has to be the Broadway Local? If you want to transform it so, why can’t the be the familiar line, and the , which has had all different types of services patterns, act as the secondary express? That would leave the as the main Sea Beach and Astoria Line 24/7, like it has always been, and the can provide the new express service that you claim will fix all? I’m not saying that the going up there during middays now is an indication, I’m just saying it’s making them familiar with the designation.

I’m not saying that, but that doesn’t mean SAS passengers aren’t seeing the designation up their line. The designation is only present southbound on some rush hour short turns. Making the full-time Astoria Line/Sea Beach Line (Late night Montague) line the when it’s off-peak route is a carbon copy of the current route is what makes no sense to me.

Here’s what I don’t understand, I read Late Nights Astoria-CI (SB, via Tunnel) and I think not . The route that you are describing as the even in Rush Hours, as a Broadway Local, triggers in my head. Your proposal is to have either one line on the Sea Beach/Fourth Avenue during days but then switch to another destination for evenings/weekends/late nights? Why? Maybe If I look at this as Route X/Y/Z instead of N/R/W, this’ll make more sense, but as someone who has ridden the Broadway Line since the days of the Yellow / D), this seems too convoluted. (And trust me, the Yellow turning at Q-Boro was convoluted back then) Especially with the going up Second Ave during most middays, why not just call the Phase 2 supplemental line up Second Avenue the , and leave Astoria/Sea Beach as the ?

Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree (even though I’ve always thought that’s cliche). Offering two Broadway Express’ one line (basically the same line with one going on a different tangent in Brooklyn) and offering only one local line full time to places (Financial) no one wants to go to during Middays and Weekends sounds like a terrible idea to me, but, again that’s just my opinion. While Rush Hours makes some sense (I do understand the switches part) there would be total confusion in non-rush times. What service does Sea Beach get on Weekends and Late Nights when you can’t have two 2nd Ave Lines, what would Astoria have, and would it stop at Whitehall late nights, what happens to the R then? What’s running local through manhattan at off-peak times? You’d have to change it all up to make sense, and have various late night shuttles, that it’s just too much confusion, for me, at least. I think it’d be easier to cherry pick and add a few trains rather than messing with everything.

Look, I honestly don’t think there any perfect scenarios here. Call me a traditionalist, but I think all of these proposals end up with only marginal differences and a whole lot of confusion with a lot of un-known answers. You have 15 TPH at Peak Periods (11-12 via Brighton and 3-4 via Sea Beach. And you need 19 TPH? There are a lot less drastic scenarios to add the extra 3-4 TPH that doesn’t result in completely chaining all of the Broadway Line Schedules. You could run 1 more up / down through Sea Beach Run 1 ’s terminating at 14th Street Union Square southbound (125th-14th is a long way) and layup in the lower level City Hall tracks. Run 1 ’s terminating at Brighton Beach or 9th ave southbound (short-turn one / at 2ave if you really have to) There, no terminal switch. No dual Broadway Express to Coney Island up 2nd Avenue and lack of options in Queens. There is plenty of places you can cherry pick here and there before these drastic scenarios are necessary.

The same riders that take the (N)/(W) instead of the . Let me ask you this: How come, during almost every midday, when there is construction in Queens, Trains are being sent up Second Avenue? Why go through the hassle of switching the at 34 and switching the at 57, when you could do neither and provide the “same” service in Queens? The answer is the same reason why you won’t see the being the sole line in Queens.

You can’t offer Astoria/LIC passengers an express through manhattan and Brighton, and a local through Manhattan and 4th Ave Express in 2016, and two years later only have one line that is a Manhattan local. Of all the trains in the Queensboro/Queens Plaza complex (which is growing at an astronomical rate) there is no other train than the which provides Express Service in Manhattan and serves Western Brooklyn (also bustling) Under your proposal, you would have the following lines in that Queens Plaza complex: Manhattan Local, to Financial District. (M)Manhattan Local, to Williamsburg Manhattan Local, to Brooklyn via Financial District Manhattan Local, to Lower Mnhtn via Financial District Manhattan Local, to Hudson Yards Noticing a pattern? The (and the previously) is the only Manhattan Express line plus it goes over the bridge quickly to Western Brooklyn. Too many people pass on the for it to be the only line in Astoria (people passed on the when the went express too). The could potentially be the only line, but the switch issues would be hell at 34th, so the current set-up is the only feasible one.

Well, as someone who lives in Astoria and sees 35% of the passengers wait for the other Astoria Line, I can tell you it’s super important to have both the and a supplemental line (the now) in place. Astoria needs considerably more service, not less, and considering that 39th Avenue/Queensboro is becoming a mini-manhattan, the TPH up the Astoria Line is going to have to increase dramatically to not have extreme overcrowding. Is there anything wrong with the current service pattern? There is always standing room on the SAS during peak periods as I see it (especially with the going up virtually every midday) and there hasn’t been one rush hour commute in three weeks that I’ve had where we don’t leave someone at Queensboro Plaza. Side note: It’s also kind of funny (in a weird way) to see Wallyhorse’s obsession of making the the 24/7 Astoria Line, in all of his convoluted Astoria Line proposals, the gets booted from it’s primary role, which is oddly coincidental, I guess.