mrsman

That makes sense. The pre-SAS Broadway BMT could only really run about 3/4 capacity of a generic 4 track line. Since the express tracks terminate at 57th, one could either run expresses to 57th at half-capacity and locals to the 60th st tunnel to Queens at full-capacity (3/4 capacity for both sets of tracks taken together), or run a similar pattern but have one of the trains from Queens merge onto the express. In other words, assuming a subway line takes up half of the track's capacity, you can have 57th - Broadway express - Bridge, Queens - 60th tunnel - Broadway local - City Hall, and Queens - 60th tunnel - merge onto express tracks north of 57th - Broadway express - Bridge. Alternatively, could run as Broadway local, but use the switches south of Prince St to merge with the express tracks for access to the bridge. If we have from Astoria and from Continental, each train service will be serviced by a yard. That also leaves room for Bay Ridge trains to have a yard as they are now connected to the train. But in the era where trains from the Upper East side portion of 2nd Ave run on the Broadway express, we know that having the merger of from local to express anywhere along these tracks (57th, 34th, or Prince) is disastrous. It is that much harder to merge into a different set of tracks when merging into a "live" track set with trains coming from elsewehre (as opposed to the old system where Q terminated at 57th). But then again, if starts at City Hall, it should be easier to do the merger at Prince. So very likely a service pattern that would allow to take over Montague would mean that does not run south of City Hall, and will run as an Astoria-Sea Beach line via Manhattan Bridge, while running local in Manhattan. Again, all of this would only make sense if the changes to the 8th Ave line would mean full capacity for both 8th Ave locals and 8th Ave expresses. This is potentially possible, running two 8th Ave express services that both run into Cranberry tunnel, and running two 8th Ave local services. Some of those locals could terminate at Whitehall, but most woujld probably continue to Bay Ridge. So basically, there is a tradeoff. Allowing 8th Ave trains into Montague would allow for an increase in 8th Ave service at the expense of Broadway service, since Broadway would be absolutely limited to three services if locals do not go south of CIty Hall.

This is interesting. Whenever someone proposes a connection from the 8th Ave local to the Montague Tunnel, I wonder what is supposed to happen to the Broadway local trains. The current WTC terminal certainly lmits the amount of 8th Ave trains that can be run, so if the 8th Ave local could somehow connect to Brooklyn, then you can run full load of trains on both the 8th Ave express and the 8th Ave local. But if the 8th Ave takes over Montague, then we will be forced to limit the number of Broadway trains. Where are the Broadway trains supposed to go? Now I am aware that in times past we had both Broadway and Nassau trains running in the Montague tunnel. In most cases, this worked OK, because the track layouts at Whitehall and some of the Nassau stations allowed for certain northern trains to terminate in lower Manhattan and allow fewer trains from each route to continue into the tunnel. So hypothetically, if one were running a full load of Broadway locals, could continue into the tunnel, while terminated at Whitehall, at the same time allowing Brown-M into the tunnel, while terminated at Broad. But the proposed merger of the 8th and Broadway lines would occur north of Cortlandt, which doesn't seem to provide any place to short-turn any excess 8th Ave locals. I guess a redesigned City Hall could short-turn some of the Broadway trains.

This seems to put too many trains on the 60th street tunnel" N, R, W, M. Given that, I don't like it. Now, if this were constructed as well as connections for both Broadway express and Broadway locals to access 63rd street, with existing connections maintained for redundancy and emergency reroutes, I could be in favor. In that situation, and will be on 60th tunnel and all of the Broadway routes will use 63rd. will now run from Astoria - 6th Ave local - Culver, giving Astoria trains access to CI Yard. will be QBL local - 6th Av local - Myrtle via 60th street. and will maintain their Brooklyn routes and both Broadway expresses will be routed up to 2nd/96th. will run from 71 Av along QBL local, the 63rd tunnel, and Broadway local to Bay Ridge. Even with this, there are still two remaining problems: Difficult transfer to for any trains along 63rd; Less trains along the 53rd tunnel as is now operating by itself.

This is all true. Some of the early maps post-1968 (Chrystie connection) did their best to try to keep track of which lines were BMT and which were IND and did their best to point out the exceptions. The original nomenclature of the trains also kept track of which system was which. The IND system controlled the first letters of the alphabet and were arranged based on their northern terminal, more or less heading east as you went down the alphabet. A,B Inwood and Washington Heights C, D Concourse E,F,G Queens Blvd H Rockaways The next set of letters were assigned to the BMT. BMT originally had numbers, but post-unification they were assinged letters so as to differentiate from the IRT system. As the early letters were taken by IND, only the later letters could be used by BMT. But there is a system to the naming: J,K,L,M - BMT eastern division N, Q,R - BMT southern division To account for many of the hybrid BMT/IND lines, the description was slightlly amended. B and D were generally IND lines, but BMT in Brooklyn. K (a forerunner to today's M that ran from 57/6 along 6 Av to Williamsburg Bridge and then to Broadway Junction) was a BMT line that was IND in Manhattan. R was a BMT line that was IND in Queens. The map posted by OP is mostly accurate in terms of the history. But it should also be pointed out that in terms of governance, certain sections of line were transferred between IND and BMT. (And at this point there is even less distinction as all o these lines are part of the B division.) So the Culver line south of Church was built by BMT, but because in current layout it only connects to the IND routes, it is considered part of IND. Similarly with the elevated train along Liberty Ave to Ozone Park, this was BMT, but as it (and the extension to the Rockaways) only connects to AC, it is part of the IND system. I don't know how to classify the current part of the 2nd Ave subway. As it directlly connects to and nothing else, it seems to fit as being part of BMT, but given the newness of the construction, it does not belong as part of BMT or as IND either, but as a separate new-build line.

Referring back to my earlier post. My service plan comment to Vulturious's post from three posts ago had the folllowing for the trains servicing CPW: Inwood-207 to Lefferts OR Rockaways. 8th Ave express-Fulton express. 24/7. Late nights local in Brooklyn. Nights and weekends servicing stops between 145th and 168th. Norwood-205 to Euclid. Concourse express during rush hour. 8th Ave express-Fulton local. All times except late nights. [M] 168th to Metropolitan Ave. 8th Ave local. Weekdays. [Nights and weekends [M] will go to Chambers instead.] Bedford Park Blvd to Bay Ridge. CPW local and 6th Ave express. Rush hour service to BPB. Weekday and weekend service to 145th. Late Night service to Norwood-205 to replace . While the above is pretty good, I do think that the following alternative may also be considered. The alternative will be more in line with the service plan that now exists, at least with respect to CPW. Inwood trains will run express on CPW, except late nights. A local service will run to 168th at all times except late nights. The Concourse will have one service at all times except rush hour, but that service will service every Bronx stop, but run express on CPW, even late nights. The second Concourse service will run local during rush hour, and will not run at all at other times. That second service may run to 145th, or may not run at all, if there is sufficient local service running to 168th to take its place. At least one 8th Ave service and one 6th Ave service will operate even during late nights. With that in mind, I present the following: Inwood-207 to Lefferts OR Rockaways. CPW express-8th Ave express-Fulton express. All times except late nights. Norwood-205 to Euclid. Concourse express during rush hour. CPW express-8th Ave express-Fulton local. Late nights, service will be extended to service Lefferts and Far Rockaway. will run express along CPW and 8th Ave at all times. [M] Rush hours: Bedford Park Blvd - Metoropolitan via Concourse-CPW-8th Ave local. Weekday mid-day: 145th-Metropolitan via CPW-8th Ave local. Night/weekend: Chambers - Metropolitan via Centre St BMT subway. Late nights Myrtle/Broadway - Metropolitan shuttle. 168th to Coney Island. CPW Local-6 Av Exp-4 Av Exp-Sea Beach Local. will run 24/7, but late nights it will be extended to Inwood-207. The above changes mean that now will run to Forest Hills, as follows: Forest Hills to Bay Ridge. QBL local - 63rd - 6th Ave express - 4th Ave express. All times except late nights. Late nights Whitehall-Bay Ridge via 4th Ave local.

Apologize for the bolding above, that was inadvertent. Also, a further note about night/weekend service to Chambers. Under this arrangement, passengers will be able to access most of Manhattan below 125th with only one transfer. At Essex, a transfer to which has access to 8th Ave and 53rd. At Bowery, a NEW transfer to for access to 6th Ave express stations, 63rd st line, and CPW local stations. Only 6th/14th and 6th/23rd are not accessible with one transfer. At Canal, a transfer to for access to Lexington Ave stations, and all Broadway stations. At Chambers, access to to also allow for access to the Lexington Ave express. To reach the Financial District, there is access to at Chambers, at every Manhattan stop, and at Canal. For the most part, the missing Manhattan stations that are only accessed via are generally walkable from one of the other lines. The furthest ones are the stations north of 66th, Hudson Yards, the Tribeca and West Village area, and the stations along other than 8th/14th and Union Square.

Vulturious, I do have to say that your plan seems to check all the boxes as far as limiting the number of merges, providing means for increasing service, and providing a means for most trips that are currently available to stay available. You eliminate the merging conflicts in the DeKalb area, clean up the merge along the Broadway line. While some merging still exists along CPW, it only affects the CPW local. The Canal st merge on the 8th Ave line is eliminated. You also have employed vanshnook's idea of routing the 4th Ave local to the West End line and bringing the 6th Ave expresses to Bay Ridge and Sea Beach. This cleans up the merges along the 4th Ave line. It should certainly be noted that a small downside is that West End riders lose their direct access to the Bridge (basically express trains to Midtown that save a ton of time by skipping Downtown Brooklyn and Downtown Manhattan), but it is somewhat necessary in order to clean up the merges in this area. It should also be noted that routing trains to Bay Ridge do require the addition of a new switch, which vanshnook talks about and which you have shown in your pictures. Let's rethink the off-peak services for a minute: 24/7. [A] will service the stops between 145th and 168th nights and weekends. [A] will also run local in Brooklyn late nights. I also like using to differentiate Lefferts from Rockaway services, but that isn't critical to the discussion of your plan. [H] would be an [A] in every other way, except its southern destination. As you've stated, runs all times except late nights. [A] will replace [C] during those hours, with [D] handling the Bronx segment during late nights. 24/7. You have presented a bit of a conundrum in your descritpion of late night service patterns. I don't think it is wise to have a regular switch where [E] runs on 8th Ave all times except late night and [F] runs on 6th Ave all times execpt late night. It is too confusing. People expect blue trains on 8th and orange trains on 6th. Let's see if we can do something else to keep it consistent. Let's start [E] at 179th and [F] at Jamaica Center. During normal hours, [F] will be express between Briarwood and Forest Hills, while [E] runs local, and yes some rush hour [F] trains will run express to 179th in a similar fashion to today's . During normal hours, both [E] and [F] will run express on QBL, through 53rd, with [E] onto 8th Ave local and eventually to Culver line and [F] onto 6th Ave local and eventually to WTC. During late night hours, [F] will run express along QBL and 63rd, but [E] will run local along QBL and 53rd and Culver. So in my mind, it seems that the solution is just to flip the eastern terminus of both lines, [E] 179th to Coney Island via 8th Ave local and Culver and [F] Jamaica Center to WTC via 6th Ave local. This is today's service, except that we switch the middle portion (and the naming). BLUE. [M] should run to 168th on weekdays. [M] should run to Chambers nights and weekends. [M] shuttle to Myrtle/Broadway late nights. When [M] runs to Chambers, it should be only one extra transfer for [M] passengers to complete their normal trips, below 145th. They can transfer to [E] at Essex to continue on the 8th Ave local and a new transfer at Bowery to Grand will allow [M] passengers to transfer to [D] for trips along CPW. All times except late nights. Late night service to Whitehall may be the only way to adequately serve Bay Ridge at night. I don't like orange train on the Broadway route, but I think the unique nature of the service will still be OK. Obviously, any Bay Ridge passenger during late nights can transfer to [D] for Bridge and 6th Ave service and the Queens portion o this line will be handled by [F] for services along 63rd and [E] for QBL local service. Transfer from [D] to [F] can occur all along the 6th Ave line and transfers from [D] to [E] can occur at Broadway-Laffayette, W4th, or 7th Ave/53rd. I do think that the full length from Forest Hills to Bay Ridge does need to run on weekends. 24/7. The northern terminal will change based on the timeframe. Bedford Park Blvd during rush hours, 145th during mid-day and weekend. Norwood during late nights when the [C] isn't running. 24/7. See discussion for [E] train for details. 24/7. Astoria- Broadway local - 4th Ave local - West End local. I am thinking that the Astoria exp you mentioned was an error, as I don't see any other train handling Astoria local. I also think it would be better for [N] to be the West End local, since it is a 24/7 route. [N] should always run to Coney Island, since CI Yard is the only yard serving this route. 24/7. 2nd - Broadway express - Brighton local. No late night service. QBL local - 60th - Broadway local - 4th Ave local - West End (rush hour) express. [R] has acces to the Jamaica Yard, so running [R] to either 9th Ave or Bay Parkway for rush hour should be fine. It would seem easier to run the West End express from Bay Parkway, to avoid merges with [N]. As this is identical to [Q] except for the rush hour express along Brighton line, let's call this Q-diamond. This will allow all letters [T] through [Y] for future services. To some extent, if [K] remains unused, on a nomenclature basis it would make sense to rename [Z] to [K] which would allow J, K, L, and M to represent the BMT Eastern Division services and then allow [Z] for future services as well, but this nomenclature change isn't critical for discussion of your plan.

If the train were to somehow become the Fulton local train, I could see a qualitative difference between the situation there and the situation on the QBL. With QBL, if 36 St were not an express stop, and you try to fully deinterline, you could have a situation where it would be very difficult to get to a lot of destinations, since that is a great divergence point. If the QBL locals all went to 63rd-6th and all the QBL expresses went to 53rd-8th, every passenger who boards west of Roosevelt will be shut off from Queens Plaza, 23rd (Queens), 53rd-Lex, and 53rd-5th. Depending on the ultimate configuration, QBL local passengers would have to travel all the way to W4 to transfer to or go all the way to 47-50 transfer to to 7thAve to in order to backtrack to the missed western Queens stations. The situation in Brooklyn is not nearly as dire. If were the local and made a connection from DeKalb station to Laffayette station, the passengers on the Fulton local stations west of Nostrand are not as cut off from service. Passengers boarding at Franklin or Clinton-Washington could take and transfer to at Jay St. Passengers would only need to backtrack to reach one station (Hoyt-Schermerhorn). Passengers boarding at Laffayette could do the same or walk half a block to the station at Fulton and cross-transfer to at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. So while it is certainly better if a major divergence point were also an express station, a hypothetical via DeKalb-Laffayette connection, would not cut off passengers from their destinations, even if Laffayette remained a local stop. Jay Street provides another reasonable transfer point, albeit not cross-platform.

My preference is the subway extention from Ditmars. It avoids the issues with branching and would ensure a direct connection to the subway system. Make it part of the subway (ideally without an extra fare for airports) and avoid the costly AirTrain. Connecting service does a good job of reaching key locations in Manhattan with transfers to most other Manhattan subways. But not every airport trip starts in Manhattan. Certianly travelers for LGA may also be coming from eastern Queens and LI. The Astoria line is hard to reach from LIRR and the QBL. Therefore, improvements to the Q70 route (like dedicated lanes) would also be needed to help travelers coming from the east. Q70 connects to the Woodside LIRR and all the subways (and future IBX) in Jackson Heights.

Agreed. Let's do the cheaper fixes to increase service and capacity, like deinterlining, before we embark on large capital campaigns. Another important piece for QBL would probably be improving travel from Jamaica to Manhattan by alternate means. This means that the subway will be less crowded if more people can be convinced to taking the LIRR (by making fares cheaper). Additionally, any eastern queens travel to Lower Manhattan would be better served via or or LIRR Atlantic lines (and then subway from Brooklyn), so those services need to be made more attractive as well.

I remember reading that as well. The super express would be linked to the Hillside local and the Hillside express would be linked to the regular QBL express and the QBL local would emanate from Forest Hills. In some ways, it seems somewhat nonsensical, but I'll put it in another way and it may have a better distinction. In many cities there is a distinction between a limited bus and an express bus. A limited bus wil only stop at the major streets - it will skip many of the local stops throughout the journey. An express bus likely will make every stop at the two ends of the route, but then have a long non-stop section (often on an expressway) in the middle. The regular express train would be like the limited bus, it will help people making long distance journeys within Queens by skipping many local stops. The super-express would be like the express bus, servicing all of the local stops east of Forest Hills and then providing a non-stop (or near non-stop) service to Manhattan.

Service over this weekend is a total disaster. So many regular lines are suspended for planned work, and all of the above lines, that were meant to pick up the slack, are experiencing incidents.

This is all true. Some form of at least partial deinterlining would be needed to accommodate additional QBL local service, which would give space on the local line for Rocakaway Branch Service. At minimum, getting rid of the local to express shift on the Broadway line (by running to 96th and increasing Astoria service), and reducing intermingling on QBL, (at minimum to 53rd and to 63rd) would help a lot here. I think doing the above would allow a few more local train on QBL. At the same time, I think even the most ardent RBB proponents acknowledge that there will be a reduction in QBL local service to Manhattan for the stations between Forest Hills and Woodhaven as there is a natural limit to the amount of trains that can be run on the QBL local. Right now, pre-COVID cuts, there is generally a 20 TPH frequency on the line. If the above clean-up can increase the overall frequency to about 24 TPH (which is generous), you will have to divert at least 10 TPH to RBB, so now the easternmost QBL local stations will only get 14 TPH service. Only ways to get full 30 TPH on the QBL local would be a) reinstating service to Forest Hills to get more trains, but not more trains to Manhattan or b) a full complete deinterlining of QBL which would mean all expresses to 53rd and all locals to 63rd (or vice versa) and would probably also mean other service rearrangements to run service so high. You simply can't have 30 TPH to WTC, so likely the QBL trains that lead to 8th Ave will probably have to run express on 8th Ave. This also means no service on QBL either.

One positive aspect of to Bay Ridge is that it would provide a yard for Bay Ridge trains. They have access to the Jamaica Yard now, of course, by way of the train, but the lack of yard access was always a sticking point in trying to establish an Astoria - Broadway local - Bay Ridge service, as a means of separating Broadway expresses from locals. Another positive aspect would be the allowance of more re-routes and the ability for direct 8th Ave sevice from southern Brooklyn. But I think overall, the connection would not allow for an increase in service overall. Ideally, Division B would have 6 northern portals that connect to 6 Midtown track sets that connect to 6 southern portals. If there were a one to one relationship between the portals and the Midtown tracks, you'd have the ability for the most capacity. (This is deinterlining). But even if we allow certain trains to still intermingle in certain places, having 6 exits on each side would still be beneficial. We have 6 northern portals currently: CPW express - CPW local - 2nd Ave - 63rd tunnel - 60th tunnel - 53rd tunnel We have 6 sets of Midtown tracks (8th Ave express/local, 6th Ave express/local, and Broadway express/local). We can connect the northern portals to the Midtown tracks on a one to one basis as follows: CPW express - 8th Ave express CPW local - 6th Ave express 2nd Ave - Broadway express 63rd - 6th Ave local 60th - Broadway local 53rd - 8th Ave local [Doing the above would deinterline, but there could still be reasons to keep some trains that do interline, like a Qns service on 53rd that connects to 6th Ave or having QBL service via 60th as in today's train.] However, there are only 5 southern portals: Manhattan Bridge N, Manhattan Bridge S, Rutgers, Cranberry, and Montague. The Williamsburg Bridge could be a 6th portal, but the way that the tracks are currently configured, it can only get Midtown trains at the expense of Rutgers. The Midtown tracks can connect to these southern portals, and most currently do in a one to one fashion: Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge S Broadway local - Montague 6th Ave express - Manhattan Bridge N 6th Ave local - Rutgers OR Williamsburg Bridge 8th Ave express - Cranberry 8th Ave local - DEAD END Since the 8th Ave local does not connect with a portal to Brooklyn, capacity is limited. This is why there are only three services on 8th Ave today. Connecting the 8th Ave local to Montague would mean that we can increase 8th Ave service at the expense of Broadway local service. The billions of dollars needed to make this connection would not actually increase capacity, even though it does have some benefits with regard to re-routes. What would allow for an increase in capacity? A connection to a 6th portal. This can either mean a new East River tunnel or a new tunnel to connect with the Williamsburg Bridge. The connection to Williamsgurg Bridge is usually envisioned as a subway between 6th Ave and the Bowery Station along Spring St or Broome St. Another possibility is a subway along Worth Street that connects to the Nassau line. If the second option is chosen, it is true that 8th Ave local trains will hit two different Canal St stations, so to avoid confusion the 6th/Canal station should be renamed to TRIBECA. But it does mean a relatively short tunnel along Worth St for about 1000 feet. The 8th Ave trains will replace along the Williamsburg Bridge lines. So what becomes of the Nassau line south of Worth Street? If teh above is implemented, there is a good argument that this small section of track between Chambers and Broad St station should become IRT and connected to the train to allow trains to reach the Financial District.

Someone on reddit made a helpful map of the weekend closures:

Could anyone explain a little more about the 15 TPH weekend track capacity guidelines? Where did this rule come from? When was it implemented? Do exceptions apply, especially when there is work on other lines that would be rerouted to other sections of track?

I agree. Full segment line closures over weekends is the only way to accomplish some of the large scale projects that we need to do. I think the Fastrack system worked very well in that it allowed uniterrupted work, in a safe environment, while conciously increasing service on parallel corridors to allow people to travel along parallel routes as much as possible. I also agree that the way that the closure is implemented is also key. If you have fewer lines to work with, the remaining lines will be a lot busier. Therefore, MTA should work really hard to avoid criss-crossing the rerouted routes as much as possible. So a 6th Ave closure would involve a D/F swap in Brooklyn, because the trains will stay on 8th Ave line and split off after Jay Street to ride down Culver, and the will presumably join the Broadway express after 63rd/Lex and follow those tracks to 4th Ave and West End.

Agreed. The via Montague plans that some people have is largely because it is indeed a straight shot. Also agree that the best opportunities for doing something along these limes was during WTC construction when there is a lot of digging in that neighborhood going on anyway. Having the 8th Ave line continue into Montague would mean that we could run 4 services along 8th Ave [as opposed to the current three], two express services that lead to Cranberry and two local services that lead to Montague. The WTC dead end limits the capability of using the full capacity of 8th Ave.

Sorry. Formatting goofed. I didn't want to bold so much.

It is certainly a hard ask to destroy billions of dollars in relatively recent construction to push trains onto the Montague tunnel. I wonder if we can roll back a bit to something I had alluded to back on January 20 upthread.* Namely, providing subway service from the Manhattan Bridge that will run along Canal Street west of Broadway and then heading up 6th Ave in the neighborhood of the Holland Tunnel. I imagine the northside of Manhattan Bridge tied to the Broadway express (as was done pre-Chrystie). The southside of Manhattan Bridge will be tied in to new track under the existing tracks along Canal. This lower level Canal tracks will make a stop under the existing Canal Street station (similar layout as the W4th station) to provide a transfer station. The lower level tracks will continue to 6th Ave and turn north underneath the 8th Ave express line. The lower level will then rise up and become the local tracks that parallel the 8th Ave express, stopping at Spring St, and then utilize the W4th switches to become the 6th Ave local. At the same time, the 8th Ave locals will utilize the W4th tracks to head east on Houston. The 8th Ave locals will be local along Houston street and the 6th Ave express will be express on Houston street. Both services will provide cross-platform transfer at Broadway-Laffayette. Then, the expresses will be routed toward the Rutgers tunnel and the locals will be routed to the Williamsburg Bridge. What this boils down to is the following system, adding in other bits of deinterlining that may be helpful. Only the new canal subway will be new construction: 207 [A] or 205 [C] - CPW express - 8th Ave express - Cranberry Tunnel - Fulton lines to Euclid, Lefferts, or the Rockaways [M] Forest Hills - QBL local - 53rd - 8th Ave local - W4th switch - Houston Street - Williamsburg Bridge - Jamacia/Myrtle 168th or BPB [D] - CPW local - 6th Ave express - Houston Street - Rutgers Tunnel - Culver. B will be full-time Culver local and D will be part-time Culver express. [K] 179th [F] or Jamaica Center [K] - QBL express - 63rd - 6th Ave local - W4th switch - New Canal subway - Manhattan Bridge - 4th Ave express - Sea Beach/West End 2nd Ave - Broadway express - Manhattan Bridge - Brighton lines Astoria - 60th - Broadway local - Montague tunnel - 4th Ave local - Bay Ridge. [Yard access to Coney Island during out of service times along Sea Beach.] * Slight difference is that this plan will have the New Canal subway tie into the local tracks, not the 8th Ave express.

All of the above does make perfect sense. In most cases, the destination is going to be the determining factor and the key factor for passengers, so that along the different ends of the route, seeing the destination would likely make the routing somewhat clear. So to the extent that there are a handful of 2nd Ave - Broadway express - Sea Beach trains out there, it makes sense to be signed southbound and northbound. CenSin, this is a great idea and thank you for identifying the regularly scheduled alternate routings. I agree that it would be nice if the diamond symbol were meant as "alternate" as opposed to "express", but given that that is most frequent connotaion, it would be hard to undo that. Especially, given that the diamond's most widespread use is for and which are in fact expresses along those lines. If I may, let's examine each of these alternate services and see what we can come up with that does not use the diamond symbol for anything other than an express version of the route. 241 - White Plains Rd - 7th Ave express - New Lots. This train should be Bronx bound and Brooklyn bound if cannot be used. Express service along even parts of Jerome is rightfully The is used so much all over the place that it is rightfully confusing! This needs a deep dive: It seems that any Lexington train that doesn't go along Jerome or the Pelham line will be called 5. As you indicated above, there are so many places where a 5 can go: northbound to either Nereid, Gun Hill, or Dyre; and southbound to either Bowling Green, Flatbush, Utica, or New Lots. I think that we will need two different numbers to designate the services. Northbound trains bound for Dyre Ave (or short turning on any segment before it) should be . Northbound trains bound for the White Plains Rd. elevated should be . Southbound trains bound for Bowling Green or Flatbush should be . Southbound trains bound for New Lots should be and southbound trains bound for Utica should be <8>. to Rockaway Beach seems to be (was) accepted usage, even though it's not more express than regular I am a fan of an alternate letter to distinguish Far Rockaway and Lefferts services, so happy to contend with either or to denote Lefferts service without hearing from people that "you're putting too many services on CPW or 8th Ave." Lableling the Lefferts service by a different letter is simply denoting a difference in the destination. Running 10 TPH and 10 TPH is equivlaent to running 10 TPH -FR and 10 TPH -OP or 20 TPH of total currnet service. [So while I am always a fan of the separate designation, many of my proposals do not make the distinction since it is easier in some people's mind to treat both as .] to 179th. Yes, this is absolutely an express since it is the form of Hillside express. While it is nice for the bus riders who transfer at 179th to have a HIllside express, I wish it ran more frequently and more reliably. Ideally, 1/3 of all QBL express trains should run local along Hillside to 179th, 1/3 should run express along Hillside to 179th, and 1/3 should run to Jamaica Center. I am even happy to entertain some trains to 179th along Hillside express, but I know that it will be a little tricky since that designation is needed for Culver Express, so maybe we can't have both E and F run express along Hllside, but it's definitely something that would be appreciated in Eastern Queens. [Alternatively, desingnation can be used for an F that is express along Hillside. And as discussed above, the 2nd Ave - Broadway express - Sea Beach trains can be designated as uptown and Brooklyn-bound. All of this is mostly because there is a slight imbalance in capacity and demand. While it would be simpler if all trains ran Astoria-Sea Beach, knowing that there is capacity and demand to run an train occasionally to 96th will happen. But it is best for passenger convenience to denote such Q/N hybrids based on their destination, southbound and nortbhound. And similarly for the other alternate routings.

Is there a way for trains to change their designation while along the route? It would seem that such would be pretty easy to do with the computerized signs and designations. So a train that runs along Sea Beach and then goes north on the Broadway express and contineus up 2nd Ave would seem to make sense to run as an N train in Brooklyn and then change its designation to Q before hitting Canal. This train is identical to a Q train from Canal northward and any passenger boarding would just be happy to board a Q. They don't care where the train originated, only where it is going. For the passengers boarding in Mahnattan, a Q desgnation is easiser than a special-N. For the passengers who are already on the train, they boarded a train along Sea Beach or 4th Ave that acts like an N train, but will eventually run like a Q train. If they get off before or at Times Square, no problem. If they are headed to 49th, 5th Ave, Lex-60, or Queens, then knowing that their train is headed to 96th like a Q is absolutely critical. It would seem that a clear announcement that is made while the train is crossing from Brooklyn to Manhattan : "Attention passengers. This N train will now become a Q train. This train will run express along Broadway and then head up along 2nd Avenue to 96th street. This train will not stop at 49th or head to Queens. If you need to reach those locations, please transfer to another N train at Times Square."

The idea is that the simple routing will be all-frought with mergers and bottlenecks. You would run A and C trains along the D train corridor, then switching to the F and then swithching back to the 8th Avenue. These merges aren't cost-free, even at weekend frequencies. You still need to run enough trains to actually serve the passengers. A normal weekend GO running A and C in this pattern would not be so bad. But there are few places for the trains to go now that you also have projects along Montague and the Broadway express. If you normally have six trunk lines (8th exp, 8th loc, 6th exp, 6th loc, Bwy exp, Bwy loc), but because of the trackwork, you now have only three (6th loc, 6th exp, Bwy loc), you have to run the trains in an efficient manner. The Fulton line trains from Brooklyn can only connect with the routing (either at Jay or at W4th) if it can't run up 8th Ave. That basically means that unless we will have trains merging between local and express tracks on 6th Ave [the GO does this, but it is a bad idea given the number of trains that need to be run on the only trunks that are available] , the trains will ride up the 6th Ave local, which only has access to 53rd Qns, 63rds Qns, or up 2nd Ave. Conceivably, there are other alternatives that avoid making a merge from express to local. You could have all three Broadway services run on the Broadway local at reduced frequencies. All three trains will ride on the bridge nb (but thru Montague SB) and run to their normal lines in Brooklyn, again, at reduced frequencies, since we are running three services in the space for two. Next, you can supsend and run the along the line, and run trains. So now we will have three services on the 6th Ave express that continues into Brooklyn. to Brighton, to West End, and perhaps to 9th Avenue on the West End, the first conceivable place where it can turn back. This allows the letters to be used for their conveninent and understandable patterns on CPW, but with the understanding that we are funnellilng all three services onto the 6th Ave express. There is no easy way for these trains to reach the Fulton line in Brooklyn, so they don't. It means a reduced service on CPW, but running as much trains as possilbe here. If we provided for to switch tracks to the local, it will further reduce the number of trains tha can run here - not good. Now we are left with one other line, 6th Ave local, which can run and service to Queens and then can run to Culver and to Fulton/Lefferts/Rockaways. The bottom line, is that if only three out of the six trunk lines are operating on President Day weekend, each of those trunks will have a significant amount of trains running. The merges in Manhattan should be kept t t a minimum to keep things going. This unfortunatlely means that Fulton line trains cannot go to CPW like their normal service pattern, becaue that would mean too much merging when there is no capacity for it.

This was a comment on shiznit1987's plan. Basically along a new tunnel to Atlantic Ave and then goes south along Utica Ave on new elevated tracks and follows the Atlantic LIRR tracks to Jamaica. I agree with this. as the only Astoria route will be 24 hours, so it will make sense that the 24 hour Brighton local be attached to it and the part time express be attached to the part time service. I also agree, but I do like the idea of as the local and as the express on QBL. This means that the two traditional QBL express services remain E and F and both lines remain on the 53rd tunnel to Manhattan. It means less switching at Queens Plaza area. E,F, Q 24 hour runs, with no R service late nights. This is basically swapping the current F and M services through the tunnels and then having Q take over M's routing into Queens. I think Q is a better train than M for the QBL local, because it can have longer train sets and it also provides a faster servcie to Lower Manhattan, given that the Q is express. (OK a transfer will be needed at Canal to reach Lower Manhattan). I like it as well. If LIRR, as planned, decides to trun the Atlanic line into a Jamiaica-Flatbush shuttle, they don't deserve it. If the line is no longer going to connect to service to Nassau County, why should it be under LIRR jurisdiction. If LIRR would prefer to run all of their trains on the main line to GCT or Penn, then they really don't need Atlantic anymore. Let it be run as a subway. I also agree that a few stops would be key. I don't see this as needing to compete with for Midtown service, let be competitive for Lower Manhattan service. If Jamaica passengers bound for the area below 14th can be coaxed off that would be helpful enough. I can see stations at Franklin (the transfer to IMO is more important than at Nostrand), Troy (just west of where the Utica line will branch off), East New York transfer to , Woodhaven (transfer to a future RBB service of some kind), Lefferts (a station here will make it easier to turn Lefferts into a full time shuttle and having all existing trains run to the Rockaways), and then Sutphin Blvd (connection to most LIRR services). The will be the express station that this section of Brooklyn/Queens needs since both of the existing services JZ and A between East New York and Jamaica run long sections of all-stop service. Could the dreamer in me have the line continue to Laurelton or Rosedale as a subway takin over the Rosedale-Jamiaca section of the Atlantic line and forcing all of the south shore lines travel via St Albans? Frequent subway service would be far better appreciated in SE Queens. Agreed. AC service as teh CPW local replaces CB service today, one service to 168th and one service as the Concourse local. E service south of WTC replaces R. Running this to Bay Ridge would likely be more popular than J, and E is connected to Jamaica Yard, so it should be fine. It would be nice to have 8th Ave service to southern Brooklyn.

Many of the work rules make a more practical plan simply impossible. But if we were to think it through, in the hypothetical: First, I would think (hope) the 15 TPH rule would be suspended during such a wide ranging GO. The available work crews would still create an average 15 TPH per line, but obviously where reorutes force new service pattern, we will see more service on such lines. will all share the Broadway local tracks. will use the Bridge in Uptown direction, with on the bridge southbound and through Montague downtown. will be extended to Jamaica Center. Suspended. suspended. speical service from 207th to Coney Island will replace on CPW and in Brooklyn. will begin at 96th (replacing service on 2nd Ave) merge in with tracks along 63rd and follow routing until W4th, and then continue on its normal routings (local in Brooklyn) to Lefferts and Far Rockaway. suspended, with service replaced by increased and service. So in Midtown, we are left with: on Broadway local, on 6th Ave local and on 6th Ave express. Not great, but IMO better than all the criss-crossing that is going on with the official plans.