Trainmaster5

I must be missing something with your proposal to extend the B59LTD to Utica-Eastern Parkway. Empire and Flatbush is the , stop, right? Empire and Nostrand gives you the , Sterling St. stop. There’s no reason for you to send a bus to the Crown Heights Utica station for a connection AFAIC. Carry on.

Look at today’s train route from Downtown Brooklyn for a general idea about Lafayette service.

@RR503 At 142nd St Junction trains were scheduled as N/B and S/B trains passing each other at the same time and the same thing for service. When we ran the shuttle train it would arrive at 135th St. before the , relay south of the station and proceed north back into 135 middle. We would wait for a N/B to leave , then proceed north and make a reverse move back into the northbound platform and pick up passengers and head back to Lenox Terminal. There was a time when the s/b was delayed at Allerton Avenue in the Bronx by a skating rink crowd and we operated the shuttle down to 96th St so riders could catch the . At the time the shuttle train was only 4 cars and we only opened up one car for service so you could imagine the load. I heard that the four car shuttle actually went down to Times Square one Saturday night. What I’m trying to point out is that there are schedules but good dispatching can overcome the unforeseen circumstances. Carry on.

Happened to touch base with some real old timers recently and brought up the problems that still plague the subway system to this day. I'm relaying this as the rookie of the group. I was wrong about the 10 car trains coming out of New Lots in the morning back in the prehistoric era of the 1980's. We seem to agree that the 10 car trains leaving the terminal were not equipment but rather a combination of , , and trains, yard put ins that Operations and Planning added to the schedule to smooth over the complaints of short trains when the and swapped Brooklyn terminals. The first interval was a which left at 5:50 or so, Two number trains, plus two trains which ran light ( not in service ) to Flatbush Avenue and represented the first two Flatbush-Lex trains daily. They would relay at Nostrand Junction and wrong-rail into President St and cross over to the s/b track south of President. There were two or three put ins and that 7:48 train I mentioned which was scheduled to arrive at East 180th St at 9:02 and terminate. When I worked that particular interval I'd usually continue up to Dyre in service, depending on their service needs up there or if we'd have a G.O. scheduled up there. The folks I talked to were working road jobs in the early '80's but by the middle of the decade they were working yard jobs at Livonia, Lenox, or relay jobs at Utica Avenue IRT. They, like myself, were taught by instructors with a different mind-set, which is why most of us aren't impressed with the so-called NTT. We come from the school where signals, track, and power distribution were held in higher regard than anything Car Equipment could provide. We IRT guys were tasked with operating cars dating back to R12s while the other guys were pushing R10s and some of both groups were qualified on Lo-Vs but never operated them in regular passenger service. I was also reminded that Lenox did run 10 car equipment, albeit for one day. The day was July 4, 1986 and the ran 9 car R62A equipment supplemented by 10 car R62 equipment transferred from Mosholu Yard for that day. I was working OT on the that day and remembered the radio chatter from different train crews. Let's just say it's dangerous when you make a 9 car stop with a 10 car train. They had to call in motor instructors from all over to warn the crews at Lenox to check the consist before leaving the terminal. It was a celebration of the Statue of Liberty's centennial with Tall Ships on display in New York Harbor. I don't know how the operated that day but the operated from VC to Rector in service, light around the ferry, and back in service n/b at Rector. I recall that there was a supplementary schedule for the but when the festivities were coming to a halt there were supervisors at Rector St n/b who told us when to pull into the station, when to open the doors and when to depart. When my C/R and I got the go ahead to head north we were already supposed to be at VC and off the clock. He was on the extra list but I was working an RDO that started at 5 pm. When I got to VC at 4:30 or so I was told by the union that I, being a Utility list guy and not an extra list person, was erroneously forced to work on my day off. I had the option to go home but at 5pm, and living in Brooklyn and traveling by train I'd missed every BBQ I could have attended. That was the only time I worked my day off in my whole career and I've never forgotten it. Those old timers still laugh at what happened to me that day. To make matters worse when I got back to VC the midnight dispatcher was calling for a M/M to make his scheduled last trip when I got to the office to turn in my OT slip. I knew who he was looking for and I informed him that M/M B was probably approaching Dyckman St. The crew office and O&P had taken all of the station switchmen and given them road jobs for that one day so there was nobody available to lay up trains and he had two trains in the station. Dude asked me to make an extra trip and it took every bit of patience I had to avoid cursing him out. I told him I'd do him a favor and lay up a train to the yard to avoid killing him. I did so and when I got back and turned in my OT slip the dispatcher started blubbering out an apology when he saw how much I made for the day. To this day my buddies and I, RTO, Surface, and CED, profess our love for our co-workers, hourly and local supervision, but look upon the monolith that claims to run the agency with utter contempt. We ask ourselves how a Brooklyn IRT crew or a BMT South can traverse Nostrand Junction or Dekalb relatively on time back then compared to today's trains which are routinely late on both corridors while having newer equipment. We, too, had days where everything went wrong but it seems to happen more now than when us IRT guys had trains that couldn't climb the Joralemon tubes or smoked or caught fire somewhere enroute. Of course the conditions for riders and workers were much different back then. Most people wanted to get where they were going in a safe and timely manner. Didn't matter what type of subway car or bus showed up either. I, personally, don't care what type of train shows up if I have to be at my destination at a particular time. I talk with my friends and family and I'm wondering what's going on in all of the departments. Seems to be a bunch of incompetent people throughout the who outnumber those who do know how to provide service. From the Prince on down. What are the odds on the Prince straightening out the Brooklyn IRT, DeKalb, or speeding up service on CPW ? Sorry for the long rant. Maybe this belongs in Random Thoughts ? Carry on.

You're probably correct on the dates. I still think the R62A cars were joined in 5 car link bar consists before 2000 because that's when Livonia yard had to be reset to allow only 10 car trains to be laid up. The tracks at Livonia stored 10 car ,and , trains overnights prior to that while the line was primarily housed at Lenox Yard. Thanks for the correction. Carry on.

Think you're mistaken about the train consists. When the and swapped Brooklyn terminals the New Lots line ended up with the newer R62A cars but within a year the consist length was increased. The AM ridership noticed that their trains were standing room only leaving Saratoga heading toward Utica so two changes were made. The trains became 10 cars and a few extra Lexington Avenue trains were added to the AM Livonia line at the same time. That started around the time MK was rehabbing our fleet and turning out Redbirds. That 7:48/ 7:50 New Lots to East 180th St was a favorite of my neighbors and my bank account !!!. We used to call trips like that " specials " and guys would complain when they couldn't work those jobs. The trains were originally graffiti covered consists running between New Lots and Grand Concourse and returning to Brooklyn to lay up on the Eastern Parkway line between Atlantic and Utica Avenues on the n/b express tracks. It was rare to see a Redbird enter New Lots station from the yard in the morning and the riders recognized the train when they saw it on the yard lead while walking to the station. It's things like that type of service which make it hard for me to compare service levels in different eras with those who didn't either live there or work in RTO back then. Just trying to clarify things somewhat. Carry on.

T@RR503, @Lex, I get both sides of the dilemma but let me throw some of my observations into the pot. Lex accurately described the function of the line from the time the WPR was connected to the existing IRT West Side subway. The went from being the Seventh Avenue local to South Ferry to become a full fledged Brooklyn service. I don’t remember when the became the New Lots mainstay because when I was a child in Brownsville the to Dyre was the Livonia line. When I moved to Flatbush in ‘61 the was the Nostrand line mainstay with a variety of different equipment in a 9 car consist. When I became a C/R and when I moved to M/M I broke in on 9 car trains on the .That’s why I take issue with some of the numbers quoted, especially if they come from the itself. I remember correcting a young RTO supervisor when he gave a critique at East 180th one day when he constantly spoke about the Dyre Avenue line and terminal. Young man didn’t realize that East 180th or 239th-241st was where line crews signed on daily with the dispatchers and Dyre only had an ATD part time. Those were the terminal stations. Crew changes were made at East 180. I’d like to know where those 10 car numbers for Seventh Avenue service came from when 9 car Seventh Avenue service was originating at Flatbush for at least part of that time. Maybe that’s including the older Broadway-Seventh Avenue service from VC ? My other question concerns Shuttle service in Brooklyn if we build a Utica line . 3 trunks with different demographics.. People clustered above the Nostrand line all the way to Flatbush. Large developments surrounding the Livonia line. Utica Avenue with a lower density immediately along the street, especially south of Tilden- Avenue D, but a much greater potential catchment area the further south you go after factoring in the transfer opportunities. Anyone care to take a stab at my observations? No harm intended and I can take criticism. Carry on.

It never ceases to amaze me when I read these doomsday scenarios about the Brooklyn IRT. Some posters are much younger than myself so I can excuse them. I must correct a misconception about service levels. The Seventh Avenue trains were the Brooklyn locals when my generation and the one before that grew up. There were more riders back then, 1940- 1980 or so and they ran more trains. The Lexington WPR terminated at Utica M-F rush hours while the Lexington-Jerome went to Flatbush during the rush hours and both terminated at Atlantic midday. No ATS, no CBTC, just tower operators manually throwing switches at Nostrand Junction and the towers located at Utica. You're probably wondering why I said " more " trains. Simple. Two five car trains had the same capacity as today's ten car consists and the operating practices were very different than they are today. Woodlawn trains only served Utica Saturday and Sunday midday when the Lenox locals ran to Flatbush. If any variant of this so-called proposal comes to pass I've only seen one poster in this thread that clearly sees the likely outcome. Less service in total. Does anyone believe that the MTA will run 3 services 24/7 across the Junction? For those who say rebuild the Junction I can only say your idea may be 100% correct but it will never happen because of the impact it would have on the immediate Crown Heights neighborhood and those neighborhoods south and east of Eastern Parkway. Just my opinion. Carry on.

Jchambers 2120 seems to have a better grasp of how scheduling works in RTO than most. The schedule is not written in stone. It's not from the mountain top or any burning bush. It's simply a guideline to be adhered to with a built in disclaimer. I'll give you a simple scenario to ponder. Let's say the schedule gives you 25 minutes to travel from New Lots to Nevins. 3 train leaves New Lots at 7:45 am so the average rider figures an 8:10 arrival at Nevins. I think the train might be at Nevins at that time 3 times a month. I know that for a fact because I used to work OT and make a 7:50 am trip from New Lots on the 5 and would connect with it or wait for it at Nevins. Maybe most posters would say the 3 train was late. Remember I said that the schedule was a guideline. That 3 train and the 2 train behind it would get slammed daily at Atlantic because of the LIRR train that terminated basically cross platform. I would see the 2 train between Bergen and Atlantic and knew where the 3 was before seeing it. At Nevins I'd pick up the crowd transferring for East Side service while the crew on the 4 train behind me would tease me and my C/R about earning the OT money the hard way. I was doing this regularly on Redbirds. A NTT wouldn't make a bit of difference. If you don't know the job remain quiet and learn something sometime. Carry on.

If the T/O was on schedule I fail to see the poster's complaint. If the T/O barreled down the road and then had to wait at President St. for his lineup to come in I'd personally consider that piss-poor operation. I posted a situation I had when I was a brand new C/R and had a speed demon M/M. On our last trip from Flatbush to Lenox we would arrive at 145th St 9-10 minutes early every Sunday night. The tower operator at Nostrand Junction, the ATD at Chambers St, and the Times Square TD finally got fed up with our operation and called the Lenox TD . The was the last time my M/M pulled that stunt. The Chief Transportation Officer lived upstairs in Esplanade, above the terminal. He, along with a Motor Instructor neighbor, came downstairs and reamed my M/M out for improper operation ( excessive speed) and not keeping to schedule. I was criticized for allowing the speeding to occur by not slowing down my door operation. So the younger riders loved us because of the speeding but supervision and the older standees weren't too thrilled with our work. The Chief reminded me of something I was taught in school car. A C/R operating mid-train with proper speed should never have to hold on to anything. If he does that means those in the rear are being thrown around. We were lucky that night because we didn't get written up. It still amazes me when the people criticizing the T/O for the operation are ignorant of the fact that the C/R and supervision are the arbiters of a train's speed. Except in OPTO the C/R is in charge. Same thing applies to the LIRR and MN last time I looked. Man told a class of us years ago that if you want speed maybe Nascar or IndyCar is a better fit for you. Carry on.

I believe the Coast Guard was the agency that determined the clearance specifications for all bridges constructed in the country. Navigation is considered a defense issue. That’s why certain US Navy vessels were constructed by different shipyards. Carry on.

Just got a call from a retired C/R now living in Vegas. He said that he’s taking bets on how long before Prince Andrew places the CBTC plans next to the 14th Street shutdown ones 😁. I’m keeping my money in my pocket. Carry on.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I remember the Lower Montauk as a line running at grade, except the Richmond Hill station. It’s been downgraded to a freight only line IIRC with the north end severed from the LIRR entirely. Carry on.

Been reading some posts concerning Bay Ridge (R) service and the ,somewhat, related work train stacking complaints. Starting with the Bay Ridge complaints and being a veteran of the IRT my solution is based on my experiences. Leaving Dyre or WP heading s/b the E180th St supervision or Mott supervision sees a significant gap about to happen on the n/b (2) or (5) line or both. SOP is to turn a s/b train back north at E 180th or 149th-GC to cover that gap. Sometimes a train from both lines is turned back north for service. Same thing would happen further down the line at Brooklyn Bridge, Bowling Green, Times Square, or South Ferry. I don't know the plant on the BMT southern division but I do know that trains can be turned back south at Whitehall and ,IIRC, Court St. That seems to be the easiest solution in my book. Notice that in my IRT solutions nowhere was a (3) or a (6) brought into the mix. The idea was to KISS and keep the problem isolated to affect the minimum amount of service disruption, Why would one extend the (J) line to Bay Ridge? That line is long enough as it is. Work train stacking on the Fourth Avenue corridor. Surprised it wasn't thought of years ago. I'll go back to my work train experiences mainly in the IRT. Someone asked why work trains weren't stored in every yard. They are sometimes but in the IRT back 30+ years ago it was a matter of yard space. Westchester Yard was the home base for all IRT work trains. Diesels were serviced there, rails, signals, and construction material were stored there. East 180th was out of the question. Space was so tight that we laid up trains on the WPR structure from Pelham Parkway down to Bronx Park East as well as the two layup tracks south of Pelham Parkway on the Dyre line itself. 239th Yard was no better with the (2) , (5) and two refuse trains stored up there as well as (2) trains stored downstairs at Gun Hill Road on the Third Avenue platform level. Lenox barely had room for the money train and 137th yard was out, period. 240th was a no-go before the flyover into 207th was constructed. Trains were laid up nightly from 225th St to 238th St on the structure. I've worked jobs that started at Westchester Yard and the train had to travel to 168th St on the (1), 149th St-GC lower level, Nevins St in Brooklyn, Eastern Parkway-Brooklyn Museum and Franklin Ave and Times Square. Many times these jobs were piggy-backed where two or more work trains were involved with a specific order and direction included. Just think about the travel time and trackage covered just to reach the work site and return to home base the next morning. Many times by the time everyone was in place and the work started we might have two or three hours before we had to pack up and head home. I can remember many mornings when the Joralemon tube, the Lex Express, and the Pelham Express were tied up well past 6 am. That's why, IMO, those work trains are stacked on Fourth Avenue. Just tell the road trains that are scheduled as such to run " express on the local track" which was a simple procedure back in the day. As an aside to those who say store those trains and run them up the West End, or Culver Lines and wait to be slotted in I suggest the following. On a train that's being flagged to a work site, meaning someone standing up on a flat or crane car as the eyes and ears for the diesel operator, I will personally rent a pickup truck and pick a night with wind chills down near zero, and prop you standing up in the bed of said truck while I travel north on Ocean Parkway or McDonald Avenue at 10 or 15 mph while the elements rip you a new one. Just ignore the rain, sleet and wind while we creep toward Downtown Brooklyn on our way to Midtown. Remember to bring an extra set of clothes too. I can almost guarantee the sentiments I just posted is why many present day RTO people have stopped posting regularly. Seems to me that many posters have forgotten that there's a human element involved here too. Joking(?) comments about taking sick customers to a terminal to speed up service. I thought we were better than that. Just my thoughts. Carry on.

When I see the comments about work trains I wonder exactly what the posters are referring to. A diesel with a flatcar is a work rain, likewise a diesel with a crane car. A CWR train or a Roadmaster consist are also work trains. What I’m saying is that there is no standardized rule about them. Westchester yard and 36th St yard were the home bases when I worked them. Westchester had a separate diesel barn where those units were serviced but I have picked up work trains there, at 239th, 240th, East 180, Concourse, C.I., Corona, Lenox, and Livonia. I have transferred work trains from Corona to ENY, 36th to Prospect Park to Concourse in sub-freezing temperatures. Each instance was different. Diesel pulling a flat car is a different speed from operating from a flat being pushed by a diesel. Same applies to a diesel crane combo and if the crane car is carrying rails that’s another restriction. The CWR train obviously can’t speed up because of the weight it’s carrying. A Roadmaster is/was a heavy duty work train with diesels on both ends Ain’t no CWR or Roadmaster barreling down the road at 20+mph unless the operating crew is suicidal or already dead. That type of consist takes forever to stop on level ground. As someone pointed out earlier if those trains were queued up on the West End, Culver, Pelham, WPR, or Concourse lines, and a service disruption happened each one of those corridors would be screwed up instead of just the 4th Avenue line in Brooklyn. BTW a question for the folks who are being screwed over in south Brooklyn. If the line is unreliable because of it’s length on Queens Blvd. does it make sense to extend the down there? Run the from Astoria and turn the into the old from Whitehall to Forest Hills. Just my opinion. Carry on.

Proper procedure is to change positions when the train is fully berthed in the station and the train operator has placed the train in emergency and removed their tools. Whether you are operating an R9, Standard, R62, or a R142 in passenger service that’s the way it’s supposed to be done. Simply put if I was a TSS standing at a C/R s position and the train arrived zoned up in your scenario said C/R would be out of service on the spot. Thirty years ago the C/R would be demoted and, depending on their record, possibly terminated if they were appointed and not promoted from within. A motor instructor or a Trainmaster were not to be played with back then. I was a C/R on a 9 car Lenox train headed to Flatbush when we were switched to the local track at Chambers St. The train was discharged at Chambers by myself and a motor instructor. When all passengers were off the train he told me that I could change positions while moving and go back in service on the n/b side after looping around the ferry. The key there was that there were no passengers aboard the train. Different era but the procedure remains the same. Carry on.

A trip from Pelham Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge and back to Pelham or Parkchester is considered one trip. Same thing applies to Dyre to Bowling Green or Van Cortland via the old SF loop. A trip from Dyre to Utica/Flatbush or 207th to Far Rockaway/Lefferts is considered a half trip. Train crews are paid according to the work program associated with each individual job. A person who is on the extra list may make 3 round trips from Pelham to the Bridge today and get paid for 8 hours while tomorrow that person might make 3 trips from Parkchester to the Bridge yet get paid for 9 hours. Different jobs, even on the same line, might pay more than others. Seniority rules in RTO. I, personally, would never pick a job on the or even if I lived next to the terminal at VC orPB. Too much cab time with trains that looped as far as I was concerned. A crew making a rush hour trip on the from VC spent as much time on the train, if not more, than a crew making a trip from 207st to Lefferts or Far Rockaway on the and probably got less pay. There were no set rules regarding pay scale in my experience in RTO. Things might be different today. Carry on.

When arriving at a terminal on a NTT the conductor must de-zone the position they were operating from, cross over to the opposite car, and then establish a new operating position before opening the doors. This allows the next conductor to board the train and leave in a timely manner. This is also the procedure for SMEE trains at terminals IIRC It’s an operational matter governed by rules and/or bulletin. Obviously Brooklyn Bridge and Bowling Green are exceptions in the IRT. Perhaps an active RTO employee can state it clearer than I. Carry on.

Typo ? Actually both entries toward Downtown Brooklyn are incorrect .A right turn from DeKalb is the opposite direction from Livingston last time I checked.

Okay follow me. You can’t make a right turn from Fulton into Nevins and then a right on Livingston. It’s a left turn at Nevins and then a right at Livingston Likewise heading eastbound you have to make a right turn at Flatbush and Livingston and then the left onto Lafayette. See what I’m saying?

Maybe someone who knows Downtown Brooklyn can help me out with a detour posted on the website. B25, 26, 38, 52 toward Downtown Brooklyn. Via Fulton or DeKalb (38) . What direction do the buses take to reach Livingston St? Yesterday and today what’ s posted seems incorrect, at least to me. Is my memory slipping or what? Thanks folks.

Thanks Byford ? Been there and done the exact same move 30 years ago . 😁

Please elaborate on how a local election in any part of this country can cause a national candidate to suffer consequences because of a situation that candidate has nothing to do with. I, personally, think that a large portion of the American electorate is uneducated or under educated but your response amazes me. I think she lost the election because she was a poor candidate and voters wanted change. The eventual winner was, on the surface, a better promoter of his ideas although any real New Yorker from the man on the street to Mayor Bloomberg knew the truth. I was born during the Truman administration and have been following elections since Eisenhower passed the torch to JFK and have never heard an explanation like yours. That’s my opinion . Carry on.

Just got a call from a friend who recently retired from the and reminded me about a conversation we had with some people in the agency. He remembered me asking about tunnel closures and replacements before any post-Sandy work was started. My question then and now was how much a prefab tunnel would cost and how long construction would take. We never really got an answer to either question but looking back on the Montague mess and now this last minute substitute plan I'm wondering if our ideas were ever part of the discussion. We're not sand hogs nor were we acquainted with anyone familiar with tunnel fabrication but we are wondering if anyone in a position of importance even thought of our solution. I guess we'll never know. Maybe all of tunnel projects could have been completed in that time frame ? Carry on.

Nailed it Lance. You have people in the DC Metro area with their own transit problems who don't care about the situation in NYC. Now imagine someone in Neckbone, Mississippi caring about Cuomo, the train, or a tunnel closure. Democrats or Republicans. 😁