Trainmaster5

Broadway-Sea Beach Express Broadway-Brighton Express Broadway-West End Express Broadway-Fourth Avenue Local Actually Lance clarified in an earlier post, Sorry I'm late to the convo but the trains were numbered before the letters were introduced. The letters represent(ed) the BMT names. Only the ran express for the whole route from 57th-7th to Brighton Beach, the was express from 57th St-7th to 59th St-4th Avenue while the was a Broadway Express from Astoria to 36th St-4th Avenue rush hours only. After the and diverged from 4th Avenue they ran local to Coney Island for the most part. Only my beloved ran express to Coney Island and on to Brighton Beach. This was from 1964 or so before the Manhattan Bridge 6th Avenue connection in 1967 while was a post Chrystie connection route. Hope this helps somewhat. IIRC we were taught in schoolcar that the "express" designation for these particular lines was in reference to the Manhattan portion of the route.This only pertained to the BMT Southern Division and not the Eastern Division trains. Carry on.

In Lionel Land anything is possible.

I'm guessing this only affects the Veterans buses and not the Kings Plaza buses, right? I was trying to pinpoint exactly where this paving was being done.

I'm looking at a service advisory for the B41 bus in Brooklyn and it's confusing me no matter how I view the re-route. Maybe someone familiar with the route can help me out here. Thanks.

I'll leave this thought here instead of the R188 thread. I'm sure that many people remember that the line CBTC project was a signal and a car equipment (R143) combination deal. People seem to overlook that the line CBTC project is basically a signal project with the car conversions being a supplement to the real project. I've followed that R188 thread since it's inception but ,IMO, it seems that many posters are focused on the car equipment side of the and lines and have overlooked the whole reason for the expenditure of the money in the first place. I'd guess that East New York, AndrewJC, and my active RTO employees are the only folks who realize that the success or failure of this CBTC test relates to the signal portion moreso than the car equipment factor. It's not really comparable to the line project in scope, at least to me. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

There's only 1 correct answer to your question and it's been posted already. Do you need more than 1 person to tell you that 1+1=2? Read the earlier replies because the correct answer will not change no matter how many people reply. Carry on.

I'll add debris on roadbed, broken rail and derailment to your list. As you correctly pointed out the T/O must find out the cause of the emergency brake application before he/she can proceed. There are locations in the IRT where it can take 15-20 minutes to complete that investigation because of clearance, roadbed conditions, or nearby train traffic. It can be time-consuming but "better safe than sorry". Carry on.

I noticed that I mentioned the Els in my post a few hours later and I should have re-worded my idea about the and the extensions. I actually meant extending the routes eastward but I wasn't thinking of elevated extensions. Unlike our "elevated" friend I wouldn't advocate any el construction anywhere in this day and age and even going back to 1950 or so. The two improvements done in that era were the IND to BMT connections to existing elevated lines, the Fulton and the Culver. I'm sure the people in Eastern Queens would be up in arms if anyone even proposed building an El out there. You're entirely correct about the Pennsylvania/LIRR financial woes back then when the LIRR was such a money pit that NY State had to put in money to keep the line running. Many people don't realize that the was formed, in part, to keep the LIRR running after the Pennsylvania RR cut it's losses and sold it to New York State. The NYCTA buses and subways were added to mix later on. Now that I think about it maybe the was formed 20 years too late to accomplish what I had in mind. Most posters are probably too young but I was in my late teens when New York State, Governor Rockefeller, and the came out with their plan for action. Talk about excitement. Those proposals had something for everyone in the Downstate region. Fast forward 50 years and all we have is a few bits and pieces to show for it. Financial downturns and conflicting political agendas in NYC, NYS, and DC have dampened, if not extinguished, the optimism many of us shared. Carry on.

I've always wondered what the subway system would have looked like in SE Queens had the LIRR Rockaway fire not happened in 1950. ALL rail service would have been via the LIRR to and from the Rockaways on the Rockaway Beach and Far Rockaway Branch(s). Probably Green Bus would have handled the surface part I guess. With all of that money saved from the NYCTA Rockaway rehab perhaps some of the long needed expansions would have happened ? The , extension along Hillside Avenue to the east ? Maybe an extension of the 15 El along Jamaica Avenue or maybe an extension of the BMT Fulton St El( today's ) past Lefferts Boulevard. If I remember my history right when the fire removed the Rockaway Beach Branch connection to the peninsuls the LIRR still ran service from Beach116 St to Mott Avenue and on to Jamaica and beyond through Nassau County. I don't know the fare structure back then but the time saved by today's route was probably a priority over those Queens extensions I mentioned. Just a thought. Comment's pro and con okay with me. Carry on..

I stand corrected ( to a point ). The existing Belmont Park LIRR station is located in Queens . The racetrack itself is entirely in Nassau County. The track is owned by New York State. Are we suggesting building a subway yard where the existing LIRR station stands? It is a rather small facility IIRC. How would any extended subway line access this yard or a new yard to be constructed there ? At the southern end of the racetrack on Hempstead Turnpike there are no residences that I can recall so where would these prospective riders be coming from ? What I'm getting at is is this plan financially viable ? Will there be NIMBY opposition even though there aren't many people impacted. Carry on.

The State of NY and Nassau County say otherwise. That's why I asked the questions in that manner.

My concern was that Belmont Park is located in Nassau County, not NYC and that "easy" rail access is on the LIRR trackage and the LIRR employees that I speak to in person or on RR dot net say that Belmont Day is a fiasco operation-wise because any train leaving that station traveling westbound toward Jamaica, Atlantic, or Penn Station must block all eastbound trains traveling on the Mainline toward Oyster Bay, Huntington, or Ronkonkoma/Greenport because westbound service has to cross all those eastbound tracks at grade. My other point was if subway lines were to be extended somehow under the Cross Island Parkway to Belmont Park the city, through the NYCT would have no jurisdiction or political power over said yard. That's one of the reasons the line spur tracks north of Dyre were cut just south of the Westchester County line. I can recall when some copper thieves were caught in the act by police from Mount Vernon and the perps were held for the Bronx police to make the arrests because the tracks were in the Bronx. If someone did something unlawful in a Belmont Park Yard to NYCT property the perp would not and could not be charged in any NYC jurisdiction but would be tried in Mineola. You're right about the proposed yard's location. Question is whom does the yard belong to politically and operationally. Back in the '80s the NYCT, through the severed all connections between the subways and railroad(s) to isolate the subway system and exercise complete control over it's operations. A Belmont Park Yard =Big can of worms. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

I'd say that the idea is interesting but perhaps you, Lance, and Wallyhorse can sort some things out for me. Who actually owns Belmont Park ? I know that it's not the operator. I do know that the City of New York owns the subway system. Not the state or the but the city. I also know that the LIRR doesn't care about the Belmont racetrack nor providing service to it except on Belmont Stakes Day, in other words once a year. I know we're in a subway thread but if anyone is familiar with the track layout east of Jamaica Station/ Hillside Maintenance Facility you see what I'm leading up to. Queens Village, it's tower and interlocking where the tracks to Belmont diverge from the mainline are at the western limits of the proposed mainline Third Track through Nassau County. I haven't seen anything in that plan concerning Belmont Park although the plans do mention Queens Tower and the realignment of the LIRR trackage in that area. If the , through the LIRR, has no interest in Belmont Park as far as I can see then why would the through NYCT have anything to do with Belmont Park Station on the Nassau County side of the Cross Island Parkway ? I'm just trying to see if the parts fit together in a coherent fashion. Maybe if the subway yard was located on the NYC side of the parkway at another location ? I don't know the answers which is why I hope you can flesh this out a little more clearly. Thanks. Carry on.

I've stated this over the years but it seems to go in one ear and out the other with some railfans. Any type of equipment on the is maintained just like any other piece of equipment on any other line. The cars will be inspected, wheels will be trued, and what ever else needs to be done according to a schedule. Obviously if the is running R62As or R142As those cars will be on the road (used) more than the same equipment on the or for example. If your fleet of cars are constantly in service when, exactly, do people think those cars are serviced? I can service 20 cars of the line fleet every night for example because most of those cars are not operating 24/7 like the does. In a month's time all of the , , , and lines cars may be serviced while the , , and lines fleets are less likely to receive the same attention. Back in the day when the ran the Pelham Bay to 125th St service overnights the maintenance shops saw those cars more frequently. It's not like the Westchester fleet has an excess of spares on hand make up service daily. To put it in simple terms if any of you railfans have the opportunity take a look at Westchester Yard middays, between the rush hours. Look at how many cars are in the yard at that time and compare that number to how many cars are in Concourse, East New York, or Fresh Pond for example. You can only maintain what's available to you. That's not excusing Westchester or any other barn but The same people working at Corona, Livonia, or 239th St, including supervision, are the same folks working at East New York, Concourse, or Pitkin. The workers pick just like we in RTO or Surface do. Just thought I'd throw that out here. Carry on.

So I'm playing around with Bustime a few hours ago and I decided to track the Q24 and Q56 routes for fun. Something started bugging me with the Q24 but I couldn't put my hands on it. I run a few errands and go back to Bustime again on my tablet. I think I found the cause of my confusion. Where does this route terminate in Brooklyn? I've always thought it was at Lafayette Avenue. Bustime shows an abbreviation of Lafayette Street. which I'm unfamiliar with over there. Someone help me out here. What are the buses signed up for as to the destination? Just curious. Carry on.

I've got a few questions for my Surface folks, especially those familiar with Brooklyn. Every weekday morning about 5:30 or so there's a B41 on Bustime heading n/b for Empire Blvd. where it terminates. It vanishes from Bustime so for a few days I tried to find this bus. One morning, on Bustime, there was a notation that the next stop was Eastern Parkway and Nostrand Avenue which is on the B44 route. Two questions here. Why Eastern Parkway and Nostrand instead of Empire Blvd and Nostrand? What route does it take to get to Eastern Parkway? I know there aren't many posters up and about at that time but I'm just curious. My other question pertains to what appears to be small deviations on some Brooklyn routes that may be special (school) trips. Again, from Bustime, B6 e/b stop at Flatlands and Elton, with a B20 stop too, B12 at old Wingate HS at Kingston and Rutland, , B6 at East 45th St and Glenwood Rd., and a B41 stop at Fillmore and Stuart St among others. Last question pertains to all of these routings and those I haven't mentioned like the B46 at East 68th and Avenue N. Are these just starting points for these runs or are they also destination points with special signage? Before I forget the obvious question about my B41 to Empire. Why not run it to the Junction as a B41 and turn it into a B44 there ,n/b or s/b ?Thanks in advance people.

Lance told you why the East 180th St flyover connected to the local tracks. The was the Dyre Avenue line when the tracks were connected to the mainline. Jackson Avenue is a little more complicated because 1- the White Plains Road Thru Express used the middle track 2- the Seventh Avenue Express from Bronx Park and later Dyre Avenue used the local track at all times 3- the Second Avenue El also used the local track from Freeman St to south of Jackson before diverging to the Bergen Bypass and the Third Avenue El. The original ironwork is still visible south of Jackson Avenue. It's my opinion that there are more delays today at Jackson because all trains are funneled to 149th-3rd Avenue and the ATS system slows things down with train IDs and such where before, with three services passing Jackson Avenue, the towers at Freeman St and at Brook Avenue ( south of Jackson ) could expedite things at the choke point. It was always my experience that a good tower operator could always give or change a track lineup faster than the ATS system. I don't know if that's still the case. Carry on.

You were right about the new paragraph. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I was commenting on the new tech vs. the quality of service and I stopped there and came back to my intended post later on. I was in NC at the time and when I got to the bus forums I tried to catch up on what I missed. That's when I noticed that BrooklynBus and VG8 seemed to be MIA. I went back and re-read some earlier posts and saw what happened. My (missing) new paragraph would have related to the fact that we posters come from different backgrounds, age groups, and experience and to me it's that combination that makes this a rewarding part of my day. I don't ride the express bus, don't live in NYC proper any more, haven't stopped in the Bronx or Riverdale in 5 years. Having said that it appeared, at least to me, that some people were trying to gang up on, or provoke a response from a long time poster, VG8 and detSMART45. Again, I value everyone's opinion and experiences from the bus fanners, subway folks, and commuters. The local media can't compare to the knowledge I gain from NYCTF so let's ease up on the petty squabbling and blacklisting of each other. Many years ago my grandmother told me that the day you stop learning is the day they bury you. I'm not ready to go that way yet. I still see that bunching going on the 12, B35 and I want to see how the B46SBS works out. It seems that the gives out these puff PR releases to the media about SBS and express bus ridership but I'd rather hear from you guys. Carry on.

Although I spend most of my time in the Subway forums I do try to keep up with things in the Surface threads. I'm more inclined to view threads concerning bus service rather than bus models. It's my opinion that service is more important than USB ports on a bus that runs on a route that doesn't provide good service. I draw my opinions from you posters but recently I've noticed some childish, personal responses that serve no purpose in advancing anyone's knowledge, especially mine. BrooklynBus, B35, Cait Sith, BM5, and my friend from Motown, detSmart paint a picture for me and I work from there. One problem though. I also value VG8s opinion even if I don't agree with aspects of it. I'd hate to lose the input of any one of you guys so let's stop the kid stuff and address the and it's somewhat shoddy service. BTW I'm from Brooklyn. The City of New York refers to Manhattan where I come from. If a mod wants to move this post it's OK by me. Carry on.

I was going to leave this comment alone, and VG8's response because I was out of town dealing with some important business at the time. I've gone back and re-read what you and VG8 were trying to get across. Unfortunately it seemed to go over many people's heads. The cleanliness or lack of it falls on the ridership and the IMO. Let's face it many New Yorkers are nasty pigs and I'll state that no matter how many get offended by it. I challenge anyone to travel through JFK, or LGA airport and compare those places to the airports at Charlotte or Orlando. Ride the DC Metro and compare it to the NYC subway. I've never been to Detroit but I've read your posts so I feel I have a sense of how the equipment out there is taken care of. I was a M/M on the subway for many years and I saw the condition of those cars from the yard to the terminals. If I was at my terminal and the cleaner assigned to my location wasn't available for some reason I would mop out my cab and the first car. It wasn't my job but there was no way I would make a 90 minute trip with the smell of food, soda, beer, or urine wafting through my nostrils. I've seen other TA employees take it upon themselves to do the same when the situation arose. In all my years no supervisor or union rep questioned me about "doing someone else job" or working " out of title ". I'll point out that when the R62 and R62A subway cars were brand new we, the train crew, were empowered to take a train out of service for cleanliness as well as for graffiti . It ultimately falls on the ridership, as well as the front-line employee, bus or subway, on how clean the ride will be. I'd advocate giving the B/O the power to remove a bus from service if it becomes a nasty health problem. Instead of bragging about new buses or trains or proposing hiring more cleaners maybe some people should look in the mirror or around the bus they're on and realize the problem is all around you. Why waste money on new vehicles when it's obvious some folks don't appreciate what they already have. Just my rant. Maybe some people should take the time to re-read what you and VG8 were trying to say. I worked for the and I'm a union man but I don't need any apologists for how I carried myself. It's how I was raised. Carry on.

I've known him for over 30 years and we've talked about many things in transit but we've never discussed it. He's a Bronxite and I'm from Brooklyn so he taught and showed me about the IRT up there while I told him what I learned about the BMT in Brooklyn. He and the T/M used to laugh at me because I spent my whole career in the IRT, except my work train days, but I love the BMT. It's funny because the 3 of us have talked about the Bergen Cut-off, Gun Hill lower, which I worked as a Railroad Porter, and laid up trains there, and the Culver, Myrtle and Fulton St Els in Brooklyn. They were always fascinated that I worked down there provisionally as a 19 year old Railroad Porter/college student in the late '60's and actually cleaned stations on the Myrtle and Culver Shuttle and that monstrosity at Chambers on the , . The joke was I was probably the last porter to try to clean the middle platform at that stop before the Station Supervisor and Transit cop stopped me back in 1968. In all my time down there it was never mentioned by anyone from any division or department even as a joke. I, too, read all of the newspaper clippings that were posted earlier and I've always taken them as proposals, not facts.. With my work train experience and my knowledge of the many bellmouths leading toward proposed extensions and the like I have never heard any official talk about 76th St.

There are many " hidden " locations in the subway system located near active and inactive sections. To say that the RTO, Signal, and Track departments as well as the former Transit Police Bureau don't have records, pictures, or have active or retired employees and don't know about these locations is misleading, at best, or incorrect. Many years ago I worked on what we know as "work" trains. There were times that the work train(s) consists would remain at a location for 55 continuous hours and we M/M were not relieved. My partners and I would walk through these half-lit tunnels and sometimes find little cut-outs that led to utility rooms or storage rooms that local RTO supervision didn't know about. The catch was that we had a T/M, a Trainmaster who knew every nook and cranny in the IRT. We would find some new, out of the way location and describe it. He would tell you where that room or cut-out was, the survey marker, and the closest signal # to that location. When I told him about the provisional job I had as a Railroad Porter and that I and a Transit P/O had explored the upper level of Utica Avenue on the IND he, an IRT Trainmaster, told me the key # and booth I used to get that key. He told me where in the RTO Command Center at 370 Jay St and the Signal and Electrical departments this information was located. Under his tutelage and that of my RTO rabbi we "students" of theirs have been inside old Mott Tower at 149th St-GC which is right in front of you if you know what to look for, The "tower" at 142nd St Lenox Junction, again it's in plain sight if you know where to look, Brooklyn Bridge satellite tower, The whole SF inner station , as well as all of the IRT towers, past and present in Brooklyn. We've walked from the Transit Museum to Hoyt-Schermerhorn and back on the IND numerous times. Towers at Broadway-ENY, Utica on the as well. The only thing I regret missing out on was the loop track on the BMT at Myrtle Avenue on the approach to the Manhattan Bridge. Now that I've posted my history channel saga I'll tell you a simple trick that these so-called explorers sometimes overlook. I gave you a hint before. Remember the discussion about 76th St and the signals and walls? Utica Upper, or the abandoned towers? As my rabbi and the T/M pointed out anything with signals and/or lighting has electrical and telephone wiring leading to and from it. It registers in the system somewhere. Those of us who were working in RTO after 9/11 are aware of the contracts that were let to Lockheed-Martin and the like to monitor the river tunnels and other off site unused locations in the system like vent rooms and such where someone could get access to the system. Guess where those plans came from? Anyone can lift up a subway grate and climb around but I doubt that anyone is stupid enough to become an undercover explorer. I can truly state that I would feel no compassion if an unauthorized explorer, vandal, or terrorist were shot and killed. Shouldn't have been there. Carry on.

Bingo !!! The TA has no pictures of the station. The newspapers have no pictures of the station or it's opening. No contractor or worker has ever been there. No resident ever used the station and no one in RTO ever operated a train there. At least people have seen Utica upper , , or South Fourth, or Roosevelt Avenue. I think it's a fantasy because no one has seen proof otherwise. Carry on.

You're probably right but in my book construction on the SAS began in 1972 so even if Phase one is completed on-time this year SAS is still under construction to me. Heck, I don't consider the Archer Avenue project in Queens as completed, just halted. I had 2 teachers back in elementary school who said a project was only completed when you reached the end. My parents also stressed that. In other words you can't move the goal posts in the middle of the project and declare "completion". Unfortunately that seems to be the way the city, state, the , and many other entities do business these days. Excuse my rant as it's not directed toward you or my fellow posters. It's just that I, like SubwayGuy, BrooklynBus, and my bus poster from Detroit, and B35 are tired of politicians running a game on the public and the public accepting it. Carry on.

Looking at it from a builder's perspective back then. Half of Eastern Parkway construction means half the on-street traffic disruption, half the cut and cover costs, half the time needed, and (probably) a lower total cost in the end. Obviously this is an over-simplication of what went on back then but for a Crown Heights neighborhood without any form of mass transit except the Franklin-Brighton line on the western end it probably seemed like a good idea at the time. Just speculation on my part. Carry on.