Trainmaster5

There were IRT trains stored in Concourse Yard on a regular basis well before the line received it's first R62 equipment. It's not unusual to regular Jerome Line riders I'd guess.

When I saw the picture the first thing that came to mind was an evacuation from one train to another. I've done it a half dozen times albeit using SMEE equipment.

As constructed the bellmouths would connect to the local tracks in both directions. Basically it's the same setup as the Nostrand Avenue line connection. Many years ago there was a diamond crossover located at the north end of Utica Avenue on the s/b tracks which could allow an express train to arrive on the local track.. It may look like it's possible to swing a train southbound down Utica from the express track once past the station it's physically impossible today.. The n/b trains from New Lots and the relay trains block any possible turn toward the south from the express track. Picture the existing layout south of Utica Avenue toward Sutter-Rutland. That curve to the right the s/b makes brings the train upward at East New York Avenue and Portal St. From the Utica Ave station s/b on the street you have one solid block of residential buildings (to Rochester) followed by the Lincoln Terrace Park footprint to Buffalo Avenue. Meanwhile there's the ramp the n/b relay trains use next to the s/b local track.. That blocks any construction from the express track toward the south. BTW here's a tidbit for you historians and subway fans. The relay track that doesn't curve toward New Lots ends at Pitkin Avenue and Eastern Parkway. That was the original end of Eastern Parkway, not the current day turn toward Atlantic Avenue. The addresses on Pitkin Avenue are a continuation of those on Eastern Parkway. The reason the IRT didn't continue the Eastern Parkway line eastward along Pitkin was because the BRT Fulton elevated was at the other end of the street. Carry on.

Thank you BM5, East New York, B35, Knightrider, and those who responded to the linked thread.. If you haven't read the link I'd advise you to do so. It does appear that the oldtimers from the PBL were doing sanctioned and unsanctioned detours back then which no B/O would risk his/her job for. What I took from the linked thread is that most agencies value safety and order over speed and timeliness when it comes to operation. That fits in with my RTO experiences where safety trumps all. If only those who frequent the subway forum would understand that, to an RTO employee, safety, not speed, is paramount. Thanks again. Carry on.

I have a question for our B/Os out there. , NICE, NJT,SCT, express, local ,limited or what have you. Are B/Os allowed to deviate from their established routes without direct permission? I'd think that an obvious situation like a fire, building collapse, fatal accident appearing directly in front of the bus would allow a deviation while contacting supervision of ones intended routing. This would also allow supervision to establish a temporary routing for the following buses. I ask this because I read a lot of posts from an express bus rider complaining about operators not leaving their routes for alternate ones due to traffic conditions. AFAIK local or LTD buses are not allowed to venture off their routes without prior consent. Have an accident off-route without permission would pretty much guarantee B/O termination back in the day. Is taking the initiative a "no-no" still discouraged by those in charge? I will say that if I was a B/O we'd travel on-route unless I was told to leave that route. Are B/Os even trained on possible alternate routes? That's why I'm curious about the correct procedure for B/Os today in the agencies I mentioned. Thanks in advance. Carry on.

Maybe an active RTO employee can chime in here. When I left crew members weren't supposed to enter the circuit breaker panel.

Wallyhorse I'm going to make it simple for all involved .IF the were to use the existing trackage in Brooklyn the would be the Fulton local to Lefferts at all times.Any train passing through the Court St (museum) station is automatically a local in Brooklyn. I'm sure the Richmond Hill riders would hate that idea but my plan would eliminate excess switch use and save the for Brooklyn and Manhattan use instead. Matter of fact your idea has 3 expresses converging at Euclid Avenue , dual trains and the .. Suppose I cut back the to its old terminal at WTC and keep it out of Brooklyn entirely? The would take it's place instead. Of course the Richmond Hill folks would lose their one seat express run but I'm only trying to eliminate excessive switch use and excessive mileage on the . My proposal is (partially) in jest but knowing how the thinks and how unfunded this train phase is I'll throw it out here for comment. Pro or con, have at it. Carry on.

I mentioned this exact point a long time ago.This is a signal project first and foremost. CBTC is the sole reason for this whole discussion. The conversions and the R188 are secondary. If they could have used the R62A cars for the project they would have done just that. If someone puts a new engine and transmission in a 10 year old " Vette I don't care what you call it, it doesn't excite me. If I operate an R62A from New Lots to 239th St yard and make the return trip in a R127 to me there's no difference because the operation is exactly the same. Now if the CBTC project works out that would impress me. BTW, I'm guessing that most of the brown spots you guys are seeing on the older cars is dirt and steel dust accumulation. When the R62 cars and the followers were introduced they all had that problem. Carry on.

Yes, they had to find people to move those put-ins. As Lance and EricB alluded to there aren't people(extras) waiting around to move those trains. Those were supposed to be handled by regular road crews when they arrived at Atlantic Avenue. Some of those people were already on trains making trips between Atlantic and Woodlawn. Any extra people located at Utica,or Flatbush couldn't reach the put-ins or the trouble train at Brooklyn Museum because of the blockage. They rounded up a TSS from Brooklyn Bridge, one from DeKalb, and an off-duty IRT dispatcher, to move the trains ahead of me into Atlantic Avenue. The line Supt. and my rabbi at Operations and Planning were well aware of the risk involved as we three had talked about it previously and my line Supt.had no say so in the matter because my C/R and I were the only foreign crew directly involved in any potential incident at that location. I actually think you're too focused on only part of the situation. On that day when the problem at Brooklyn Museum cleared up and the G.O. was over those of us located on that section of express track were the last ones to move. I know EricB and maybe Lance can see where I'm going with this. IF those trains ahead of me and the train behind me were moved to clear that track where were they supposed to be moved to and with what personnel? The only train with a crew was mine. The correct procedure was followed. The n/b local track was cleared up, the n/b trains stuck behind it and trains started to move again. Service was restored from Utica and Flatbush Avenues, 7th Avenue line service was restored between Wall St or Chambers St and Brooklyn, the G.O. ended and New Lots service resumed and the congestion was relieved both north and southbound. Your concern and solution were well thought out but in the grand scheme of things it was determined by the Chief Transportation Officer that those lay-up/put-in trains were to be left alone as much as possible. That's been standard IRT protocol as long as I can remember. Before all day IRT express service began in Brooklyn we stored trains on the n/b tracks between the north end of Nostrand Avenue to Utica, as well as south of Utica. Utica Avenue was the southern terminal for the line while the came out of New Lots. As far back as I can remember, before 1960, any time there was a blockage on the local track between Utica and Nostrand Avenues those put-ins were not moved, period. Even if service had to be suspended those trains remained where they were. The reason given was always the same. If those trains were to be moved they would cause worse problems for all involved. Sometimes we have to look at the big picture. Carry on.

@Abba, Daniel, and Lance. Years ago I used to do a put-in from the express n/b track between Atlantic and Franklin Avenues. Same situation Abba described. I was the 4th train,IIRC, in that line. The trains located north of me were trains and they were laid up by am finishing crews after the rush hour. I was a pm crew, starting at Utica Avenue. The crews that moved the trains ahead of me were crews from Woodlawn and were making s/b trips toward Atlantic Avenue during the early midday hours. The Utica Avenue switchmen were relaying trains at Utica. The crews at Atlantic were either on lunch or scheduled to make n/b trips from Atlantic. Except for the lone TSS at Atlantic there was no one available to move those put-ins out of the way except him (and me). If the blockage was between Franklin and Atlantic n/b there wouldn't be a way to even get to those trains where I was located. My train was located under the 7th Avenue Brighton Line station and could only be reached through the emergency staircase from the n/b 7th Avenue station or by walking back from the n/b Bergen St platform on the express tracks while climbing up and down three trains. Not very quick work. I was actually caught up in the scenario Abba mentioned and I waited about an hour before they found people to move the trains laid up ahead of me. No crews available to move those put-ins and the lone TSS was directed to the problem train at Eastern Parkway-Brooklyn Museum. I sat back and read my newspaper. Not a common problem so when it happened we just rolled with the punches and played it by ear. Even when the problem cleared up I was stuck because two of the crews scheduled to make those put-ins located ahead of me were turned back north at Bowling Green. It worked out OK for me and my C/R because by the time we got to Dyre we could only make our last trip back to Utica and layup in New Lots Yard. Win some, lose some. Carry on.

Is it just me or does anyone else feel that the man at the top at MSG is either arrogant or missing a few screws? How do you make Isiah Thomas President of the WNBA New York Liberty. IIRC Mr. Thomas was at the center of a sexual harassment trial a few years back that cost MSG big bucks when they lost the case. It's Jimmy Dolan's money and his team(s) but I don't think he knows jack about basketball or public relations going by his past decisions. Maybe the NBA or his daddy will step in and show him the light. Carry on.

I don't think the DeKalb junction was really inefficient when it was constructed. People tend to forget that the BRT/BMT had a major terminal and junction west of DeKalb/Flatbush at Sands Street. That location handled Myrtle, Lexington, Fulton, and 5th Avenue lines that terminated at Sands Street, the Brooklyn Ferry, or Park Row. I think that the city's demolition of the Fifth Avenue line after the takeover of the BMT meant that more service was funneled into the 4th Avenue lines and added to the congestion at DeKalb. With the closing of Park Row and the demolition of Sands St terminal all BMT service in the southern division ran into or through DeKalb toward Manhattan. Brighton/ 4th Ave " Banker's Specials", 5th Ave, West End, Brighton locals, BMT Culver trains, Brighton, Sea Beach, West End expresses. You're 100% correct. No one could have foreseen that amount of train traffic when DeKalb was constructed. Carry on.

I read your post but IIRC there are trains that run express to Franklin Avenue and then local to New Lots Avenue. That's before the locals from Nevins to New Lots start running. That's what I was talking about.. If I'm wrong I stand corrected.

I'm going to take a guess, based on experience, and try to answer your questions. 1 Because of the limited service due to the water main break there were probably too many trains and crews at Flatbush already. 2 Same reason as #1, too many trains out there 3 There are people at Utica Avenue that are assigned to relay specific interval arrivals. When it gets later in the evening (after 8-8:30 pm) these people go off duty so unless someone way up in supervision authorizes O.T. payments for the relay people you end up with the conga line from Franklin to Utica. If the crew(s) operating those last trains to Utica Avenue are finishing crews, are scheduled for lunch, or have another trip back to Woodlawn from New Lots Avenue whom is going to relay those trains? Unless things have changed drastically I can assure you that the people from Operations and Planning and those from budget are only going to have a minimum workforce on duty whenever possible. If a local supervisor would try to order someone other than the person assigned to relay said train my fellow RTO people at Utica Avenue know 2 words that negate said order. Because of the layout of the station the magic words are "comfort relief". BTW if your train was held at Franklin Avenue 'til the conga line cleared up what would you say to the people on the trains behind you? Carry on.

Happened to see bus 3334 heading eastbound on the LIE Saturday night about 11 pm near exit 44. Also passed an bus being used as a shuttle on the LIRR Ronkonkoma Branch. It was signed "Subway Shuttle" entering the Brentwood station parking lot. Didn't get a # because I didn't want to hesitate while crossing the tracks...even though there wasn't supposed to be "regular" train service Sunday afternoon. Didn't want to take the chance of some sort of work equipment catching me on the crossing. Better safe than sorry. Carry on.

The problem at the eastern end of the terminal is that there is no direct access to the street ( Lenox Avenue ). The two station tracks head east past the crew quarters before turning southward under Lenox Avenue. South of those tracks ,IIRC, is a parking lot and a stockroom for the heating/ac department. The existing station and yard trackage are under a housing development so if any entrance/exit were to be constructed at the eastern end of the station it would have to go up and cross onto private property and then down to reach street level. At that rate the short 145th St station would appear to be the cheaper option in the long run. As you have correctly pointed out out the exits for 145th St and 148th St are nowhere near each other and riders don't use them in an either/or situation. It's one or the other. To those who suggest extending 145th St further north I'd point out that the existing station platform is the last part of level ground before the trackage curves upward and begins it's ascent slightly east before the station tracks bear sharply to the west at the entrance to the Lenox Yard. Any extension to the south would be costly and time consuming judging by the construction done from 110th St up to 145th St. It's my guess that the 145th St station remains open because the street is a somewhat commercial location and another gateway to the Bronx for buses and auto traffic. FWIW it's also next to the MCH bus depot. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

There used to be a switch s/b before Utica Avenue to do exactly what some of you are proposing. It was removed because the New Lots line didn't need the switches at both ends of the station. Why pay to maintain 2 sets of switches to route trains toward New Lots ? The extra service out there is not warranted at this time. What you seem to be proposing is a plan to speed up the between Franklin and Utica at the expense of New Lots riders.The and don't need any more service to New Lots which would screw up the existing line.I think the same reasoning was used when the switches were removed between Borough Hall and Hoyt Street which connected the Lexington and 7th Avenue lines. More switches= more potential problems seems to be their reasoning. Think about the Freeman Street interlocking for example. G-O-N-E. Poof. Remember In Transitland it always boils down to cost. I've read some proposals on this forum that seem well thought out and logical, threads that garner a lot of support from other posters, but only a few people realize that the proposals are DOA if only because of cost. The is broke and if the politicians give them any more money the SAS and ESA are bigger photo ops than a switch or 2 out in the boonies. Carry on.

I have a question for my current RTO people. Have there been any modifications to the NTT to improve their operation in inclement weather?: Those of us who operated the R142/ 142A cars when they were brand new might remember the problems they had. For example a n/b or leaving 149th St-3rd Avenue in icy conditions would always have problems trying to make the climb up to Jackson Avenue if it was a NTT. SMEE equipment never had that problem even when they were on their last legs.Ice on the third rail and/or the running rails were also problematic on the Dyre Line because the announcements and onboard computer would be so far out of synch that the "hi tech" components were basically useless. There was also the problem of the "current collector" vs the "contact shoe" back then. Trains with contact shoes never had the issues the NTT did with ice on the third rail. Sure the lights and HVAC might flicker on and off but back when the NTT were introduced to the IRT any fluctuation in electrical current could possibly bring a NTT to a dead stop. That Con Ed substation upstairs at Newkirk Avenue on the Nostrand Avenue line was notorious for it's voltage fluctuations which stopped all NTT movements in and out of Flatbush because the computers would shut down the trains. Imagine being a crew member or passenger on a s/b train stuck down there and having to wait for the emergency truck to bring Car Equipment and Bombardier people to the scene to re-boot the trains affected. Hope things have improved for the crews and passengers. Those railfans who drool over the shiny NTTs don't have a clue. Carry on.

Quick question for you railfans out there. Why should Westchester or 240th St yard have or replace any stickers on their fleets ? I can assure you that Car Equipment, Yard Dispatchers, and most train crews know which cars belong to their fleets. Sounds like a railfan's wish to me. It's a waste of time and money in my opinion. Carry on.

Thank you for this post. I've known about the plan for many years but the key word is "proposed". The dead end trackways and such fit in nicely with what the planners of the IND did in other locations like Roosevelt Terminal ,Second Avenue , or Utica Avenue , , where the basic layout exists for potential extensions. If the true believers would take their fantasy to it's obvious conclusion they would ask where the 84th St and Cross Bay stations are. The IND built segments of a line, not single stations, whether on the QBL, 8th Avenue, or Fulton St line, for example. The segment from south of Broadway-East New York to Euclid was built and opened at the same time. The newest construction south of Euclid is Grant Avenue station which opened up when I was a child. That's when the connection to the BMT Fulton line was made. Does anyone really believe that the NYCTA would abandon brand new stations in that scenario? Carry on.

You and I know that but there are a few people out there who have swallowed that hoax, hook, line, and sinker. No one who has ever worked at NYCT has ever set foot at this "station". The last Trainmaster in the system laughed at some of us when we asked about this supposed station. He also said that if we found this "station" the Tooth Fairy would be the RR Clerk selling tokens and the Seven Dwarfs would be the RR Porters..For the younger forum members the Clerk and Porter titles were what today's SA and Cleaner (TA) were called back then. My Station Dept .co-workers might also note that there was never a work program for a clerk or porter at this "station" nor was there ever a booth # or #s for this location.They have old station department work programs for the Chambers St station, Myrtle-Jay on the el, to name a few as well as old RTO work programs like the Bowling Green Shuttle or the Third Avenue el that date back over 50 years but nothing about 76th St? Come on.This coming from a man who could identify any signal location in the system if you gave him the signal number. All that ever existed was an inscription on a model board. As he and some other RTO oldtime legends pointed out to me back then there's a reason I could visit the Fulton/Utica upper level at the , , station or the uncompleted South Fourth St or Roosevelt Avenue Terminal. They actually exist. People can believe what ever they want but I trust those who taught me. Knowing the total system was their job. Carry on.

Have you factored in the cost of insurance and permits yet? Do you have the proper permits from your county/local government to place this subway car on your property ? Will this purchase be donated to a non-profit museum or some other entity? Have you thought about the federal, state and local tax implications at all ? Do you have a homeowner's insurance policy that will cover this ? There's a reason why most purchases of subway/railcars are done by museums and not individuals. Think about it.

That decision the "driver" on the Bx44 made on his own could have cost him his job. Quite franklytt B/O in your case could have asked you to leave the bus, refused to move the bus, and/or called the police and he would have been correct in his actions. I don't know what words passed between you and the B/O, nor do Iknow whom else was riding that bus but if a supervisor or special inspector was on board maybe he was following rule # 1. I'll let you figure that one out. I personally know a B/O who was taken out of service and suspended for being a "nice guy" and letting a farebeater slide. I was on his bus and witnessed the whole incident. In that incident there were no angry words exchanged but my friend still got time in the street for his kind action. In that case a fellow passenger didn't like the idea of someone getting a "freebie" from the B/O and filmed and reported it . Cost my friend 5 days pay. I don't recall the freeloader chipping in a dime to help my friend out either. When I was a C/R on the Dyre shuttle many years ago nobody got a break. Put your money in the farebox or start walking was our motto back then. The only people who got a break were those whom a police officer okayed.

I can't speak about the railroad employees but AFAIK you can take a picture of an on-duty T/O, C/R, B/O, or any NYCT worker as long as you don't interfere with job performance. A NYCT worker is a "public" employee with no real expectation of privacy. While a worker may not like the idea those of us who have worked for the agency have seen times when the itself releases pictures and the work history of an employee to the media and the public. I'd venture a guess that with the advent of social media, coupled with increased security post 9/11, has many people wary of any type of photography. I can see where an employee might be upset, especially if the picture taker photoshops the picture into something negative, but as far as I see it comes with the territory of being a NYCT employee. If I'm wrong about this an active employee can chime in here. Carry on.

What exactly is it that you think Livonia/ New Lots station does differently than other two track terminals ? The yard leads beyond the station limits are not generally used for basic line service so the and the are both stub ended at either end for the most part. The main difference is CBTC on the line.