Trainmaster5

Back in the day the would make local stops if there was a delay in service hence the 9 car markers on the local tracks. They would try to avoid using a train for the local whenever possible because of the length of the line and the possibility of major delays at the terminals. On the east side Lex line the was the fill in for the service, especially when the trains were only going to Bowling Green.

If the train with the problem was at Nevins St and there was no train, or one train, behind your train and the problem ,you were held to lessen the gap between trains. Best case scenario would be to hold one at Chambers, one at Wall, and one at Clark St until the problem cleared up. That's old school dispatching 101, BTW. Carry on.

What I'm saying is that you can't call the conversion a success or a failure until the CBTC project is completed and the cars are operational under CBTC. Right now all we have is teething problems with the rolling stock. I think the kinks will be worked out long before CBTC is installed. The cars and the signal system are intertwined as far as I'm concerned. It's a package deal. BTW I never suggested that R62A cars could run under CBTC but they can be used with the new/converts until the system is up and running. I think the rolling stock is the easier part of the program. I doubt the would rip out the old signal system as soon as CBTC is turned on. Hope this clears up any misconception of my original post.

I'm going to jump in here for a moment with my two cents. As others have pointed out this thread is about the R188 cars and the Flushing line. What seems to have happened is that many posters have gotten hung up on the new and converted cars yet miss the big picture. All new rolling stock has teething issues that eventually get worked out. It always happens and that's why these cars are tested. I haven't posted in this thread because the R142A/R188 cars that are running today can have all the kinks ironed out, have the interiors spotless and it still means nothing in the long run. The main focus of the is the signal system, not the rolling stock. If the upcoming CBTC signal conversion project doesn't pan out then all this hype over R188s means nothing. The R188 class of car is just a component of a major signal project in the long run. If Bombardier was picked we'd be talking about R142s instead of R142As. If they can't get that signal project up and running in good fashion it wouldn't matter what class of car ran on the line. The real testing hasn't even started yet. Just my opinion. Carry on.

A 90 degree turnout to a new connection is much different than one to an existing line like Utica/Fulton. In the SAS case the is leaving Lexington Ave at 63rd St to join a line on Second Ave. Take a moment and judge the distance involved to make that connection. That was the point I was trying to make. Land acquisition and underpinning costs are a magnitude higher when you are dealing with already built up land. Basically you are trying to retrofit a piece to the , . Big difference than connecting the to the SAS. Even the Grand St /6th Avenue was easier. The work was done between the north side of the Manhattan Bridge and the 6th Avenue line with as little disruption to existing service as possible. IIRC I don't think the service, which ran on the 6th Ave/Rutgers line at the time had as great a frequency as the present , service does on Fulton St. That's why I threw the option to connect at Utica/Eastern Parkway out there. The bellmouths for north and south bound service already exist at that location. In the real world (2014-25) I doubt if the would go for the more expensive option although the better option, IMO, is at Fulton St. Heck, in the real world of today the wouldn't even consider either option as realistic. Just my opinion. Carry on

The main problem with any proposal involving a line from Utica Avenue connecting with the , trains at that station is obvious. That connection would call for a 90 degree turnout at the station. That ain't gonna happen nowadays. Look no further than the Broadway/Myrtle station on the , lines and how that connection was set up way back when. That type of construction is history and wouldn't be done today. The closest example I could come up with offhand was the connection with the , , 6th Avenue lines between Grand Street and Broadway-Lafayette and the Second Avenue stations. It may not seem like much but there is a lot of space used in that connection. A line branching off Utica Avenue to the Fulton Street line would have to connect somewhere in the vicinity of Rochester/ Patchen Avenues, basically 1/2 way to the Ralph Avenue Station. There would be the issue of land aquisition around Rochester Avenue and the underpinning of the housing and the LIRR. Since at-grade connections are frowned upon there would have to be serious underpinning work to connect a flyunder with the northbound Fulton St line. It's my personal opinion that any Utica Avenue service from the south would have to end at the existing Second System station at Fulton St and Utica Avenue. Passengers would have to transfer for trains at the lower level. The only other viable connection is with the IRT at Utica and Eastern Parkway using the existing bellmouths but that restricts the whole line to the smaller equipment which should be avoided if possible. Just my opinion. Carry on.

Where would these extra trains and crews come from in an emergency situation ? It's not like there are extras laying around waiting to be used. The best case that I see would be to run the and local if needed. Of course that would foul up service on both lines in the unaffected areas. Carry on.

You left out the second part of your statement, LOL. Don't get caught!!!! That's when the Labor Relations people play their favorite game called "choices". It goes something like dismissal, demotion, or 30 days in the street. Not much fun in that one. Seriously though, it angers me when a situation like the one Jamaica Line described happens and the T/O gets caught. While it may have been fun to a railfan I always have no pity for the employee involved. Even the union reps can't really defend them in those cases. SMH.

Am I misunderstanding you or are you really applauding the fact that you were riding a train with a jackleg T/O who doesn't know how to operate by the rules? Inquiring minds want to know, LOL.

It's" Grand Central Terminal" which encompasses the whole enchilada, station and platforms. That's it's name, just like Pennsylvania Station, Atlantic Terminal, Broadway Junction, or Journal Square.

Both methods use public airwaves, no? I'm just taking the position that nowadays there are no guarantees of privacy. I happen to side with you but........secret courts may see it another way.

I've always had mixed feelings on scanner usage, even when I owned one. I'm old school so it reminds me of eavesdropping on private conversations which was always a no-no where I come from. As far as broadcasting what one has overheard on a scanner to a train car full of people I think there's a greater chance of making the situation worse rather than informing strangers about what you think you've heard. That's why terms like "bomb", "gun", "shooting" are never heard on official radio transmissions. BTW, while someone is listening to conversations on a scanner how does that person feel about the NSA,DHS, NYPD or some other entity listening to their conversations ? Just asking. Carry on.

Perhaps you missed my history lesson(s) on the White Plains Road line train service in the past so I'll do a short refresher. 241 St-WPR was the historical terminal for east side train service. People from Mount Vernon and points north used that station for the Lexington and the Third Avenue services. When yours truly was a new M/M working in 239th St yard we still had unused Third Avenue cars stored there from the el's closure. Seventh Avenue trains started at the old Bronx Park terminal before it was closed and the direct connection with the Dyre Avenue line was put into operation. At that time 7th Avenue service ran from Dyre to New Lots except for the late night shuttle between East 180th and Dyre. The public and the politicians wanted the TA to switch the northern terminals so Dyre became the Lex terminal and 241St was left with the train. This is what the people in the corridor between 241 St and East 180th St asked for. Those rush hour trains to 241 St/238th St were left in place for the benefit of those commuters coming from the north. Those people entering and leaving the trains up there and many of those at Dyre Avenue are commuting by bus to other points and don't live near the subways. If we're speaking of NYC residents only I'd bet that the residents of Coop City and their politicians have more clout with the compared to the upper WPR people. The only way the swaps terminals again or adds service is if it benefits train operations and not for any other reason. Just over three years ago a proposal to adjust train service up there was panned by the riders and the politicians. Most of the riders hated a variation of your idea. As some have pointed out I don't think farebox counts or loading guidelines show a need for a service adjustment up there. I haven't been down at street level at the stations up there in about 15 years but there used to be blue and white signs on the staircases that said Interborough system to Lexington Avenue /Fourth Avenue service to City Hall, South Ferry, and Brooklyn. Transfer to 7th Avenue service to Times Square. That's what White Plains Road service used to be. Carry on.

What you seem to be proposing is to shaft the Dyre riders for your own benefit. Having worked both the and lines extensively I can state without hesitation that your idea is unnecessary. The ridership on upper WPR does not justify more service, much less added service. Think about what you're asking for and look at the big picture. You are proposing 20 minute waits for the Dyre riders. Just to benefit some riders between 238th St and East 180th St ? That ain't gonna happen.

You're right about the S42. As far as the cabs go on LI you hit the nail on the head. Robbery for sure. Like B35, I'm still trying to figure out this guy's final destination. Why would anyone just hop on an LIRR train without knowing the stations and the surroundings ? SMH. Carry on.

That's a 4 1/2 mile walk from CI station to the Islip station. For those who don't know the area it's about the same distance from Main St to the Sutphin Blvd , , LIRR station. From the Central Islip LIRR station if you catch a cab early in the morning I'd guess 95% of the time they would only take you to the court complex. That's not even halfway to the other station and rest assured you will pay big bucks just to go to the court complex. From the court complex if you're lucky you might be able to catch another cab toward Islip. The cabs make their money between the Central Islip LIRR station and the court complex. Most people in the Islip station area don't go near the courts unless they're on jury duty. There's a shopping complex near the courts and the LI Ducks baseball park but people frequenting those locations always drive. To be honest I'm not sure SCT has a bus route connecting the two LIRR stations.

So I'm sitting back kicking it with some old childhood friends (50+ years friendship) and a few younger family and friends. The subject of Brooklyn and bus transportation came up and I noticed we older folks called buses by street name, rather than numbers. Even when the BK streets became one way in the mid-sixties we still used the older street names. Depending on what neighborhood we were in or where we came from. We took the Pitkin, East New York, Rockaway, Utica, Kingston, Nostrand , Ralph, or Flatbush, for example. Nobody said we took the B14, B12, B60, B46, B47, B44, B40, or B41. We rode the Franklin, Church, Fulton, Sumner, Gates, Halsey, DeKalb, Flushing, Graham and everyone knew which bus we were talking about even when the one way streets became the norm. My godchild has been a Brooklyn B/O for over 20 years and he just laughed at us when we said the only bus we called by number was the B39, the bus to Delancey St. IDK, maybe BrooklynBus might remember our generation using that terminology instead of using numbers. For instance we always called the B49 route the Rogers Avenue bus even though we knew the "official" name was Ocean Avenue. That's because we lived in Flatbush/ Prospect-Lefferts and we always took the B49 n/b toward Bed-Stuy. Even when we rode it s/b toward Flatbush or Ocean Avenue we stil called it the "Rogers Avenue" bus because the original stops were on that street. Our electric buses were easier. We always knew where the Bergen, St Johns, Franklin, Kingston (Tompkins), for example, ran so numbers weren't needed. When the numbers were changed , for reasons only Ops & Planning know, my people still knew what buses we were talking about. B47-B43, B10-B15, B78-B47, who cares. I've asked a few retired B/Os about the route number changes and all agree on one, the B10-B15. Maybe BrooklynBus or someone else can explain the reasoning about the rest. Carry on.

Been reading a very good book about the NYC subway system and it's history. It's called "The Routes not Taken" by Joseph Raskin. I'm reading it on my Nook HD+ so I know it's available at Barnes & Noble. Hardcover will set you back around $30.00 but it's $17.00 in the e-reader version. Most of the points we've brought up in the forums are touched on and I'm only halfway through the book. I find it fascinating that so many subway routing proposals were bandied about by neighborhood , churches, and civic associations yet were never acted upon because of petty politics.Some of these common sense ideas , if acted upon, would have changed the transit picture in the city as much as the IND Second System would have done. Some of these ideas were actually incorporated into the proposed Second System expansion plans. As much as I will always consider myself a Brooklynite and not a resident of NYC after reading the first half of this book I'd say the residents of Bayside, Douglaston, and the rest of NE Queens, and the whole of Richmond County, have been lied to and betrayed from the beginning. They have a real beef with the powers that be. Without revealing too much let's just say that in the first half of this book Robert Moses is not the villain. That's because he's not mentioned so far. The biggest individual villain is Mayor Hylan. I'm shocked his name graces any street on Staten Island after reading how he treated it's residents. Simply put, most of these ideas came from people who were not transit buffs or experts but their proposals were often better than those the IRT, BMT, or the city itself ever thought of. If you get a chance to read it you'll see that even before the web, blogs and the like, the average New Yorker had plenty of common sense and foresight. Sometimes deferring to the "experts" is the worst course of action to take. Carry on.

I only used it twice although I always passed it on my way to Union Hall and the 165th St bus station in Queens. I had an older friend who used to hang out around the Woodhaven station area and he would call me when he got drunk. I'd take the train out there and drive him back to Brooklyn in his car. The bad part was that many trains didn't stop there at all times. The good part was that I got to drive a Pontiac GTO back to Brooklyn. A real muscle car. I was a designated driver before the term came into use.

The Brentwood stations I was thinking of were Brentwood (old or new), Pine Aire, and Pilgrim State. You got it. I actually went to the Pilgrim station back in the sixties to visit someone. I happened to see the old station shelter on another site so I've been exploring the area of the old ROW including the shed and the remaining part of the ROW at the southern end. I haven't walked the whole ROW because it's about a mile of underbrush and the south end still is active on the Pilgrim Spur. There were a few cars laid up behind the switch Friday and just east of that location NY&A uses the old Pine Aire station location. Private property means private in my world. Funny thing is is that the NY&A "yard" has the right address number but calls the town Bay Shore on the sign in front. Bay Shore it ain't. The present Deer Park station might be located in Brentwood. LOL

Made a round trip from Brentwood to Brooklyn last Friday and for the first time in many years I had no time constraints. I just sat back and thought about the many rides I've made on the railroad over the last half century or more. On the westbound trip my train was delayed, "held", according to the station monitors for 8 minutes at Ronkonkoma. Years ago there wouldn't have been any notification at the pre-electricification old Brentwood station. Unless the station agent came out and notified us that is. Finally an M7 appeared. The next station, Deer Park, isn't even located where the old Deer Park Station was. Heading w/b toward Hicksville I looked out the window to where the old Grumman stop was. There isn't any trace of it as far as I could see. After Hicksville I was noticing how many unused sidings there were heading toward Mineola. I know freight isn't a big thing with LIRR/ New York & Atlantic any more but it's sad to see so much potential being wasted. When we finally got to Jamaica my connection was long gone so I walked around the platform. Noticed the smokers weren't there any more but the pigeons were still there.There was a wrapped M7 laid up adjacent to 1 track. When the Brooklyn train came I noticed we slowed down before East New York, almost stopping. Once we hit the viaduct I got to see my familiar view of Bed-Stuy. Looking down while leaving Nostrand Ave I saw some street construction btw Atlantic Ave and Fulton St. If that was for the B44SBS service the DOT was cutting it real close. On my return trip toward Jamaica some things became apparent. There was a single track operation in effect between Atlantic Terminal and east of the East New York station. That's why the w/b train slowed down at ENY. Got to Jamaica and walked over to track 8. I noticed a train crew on the tracks and saw that they were waiting for an equipment move ( loco #404) that popped up when my Ronkonkoma (M3) train arrived. On the trip east I did my usual observation and got back to Brentwood on time. Some things I noticed. At the east end of Mineola there used to be remains of trackage heading s/b, not n/b toward Oyster Bay, that are now gone. That M3 was flying btw Mineola and Hicksville. The connection with the Central Branch at Bethpage has always fascinated me for some reason. I've yet to ride a train across it after riding the Ronkonkoma Branch off and on for over 30 years. I had a discussion with a forum member a while back who discounted my interaction with the workers of the NY&A freight workers. For some reason he couldn't fathom an subway M/M dealing with railroad workers. Put it this way. When I came out of schoolcar my first assignment was work trains. Diesels and electric locomotives. That stuff has always interested me and the LIRR workers, and now the NY&A folks, have been helpful to me for the last 30 years or so. BTW I'd also like to point out a few things about the stations I've used on the LIRR. Heading e/b I've used the Woodhaven station on the Atlantic Branch, Union Hall St on the mainline, and Pine Aire on the Ronkonkoma line. They're all history now. There's one more I've left out. Quick quiz. Name the three LIRR stations that Brentwood had.I've used them all in my lifetime. Carry on.

Broadway Junction refers to the train station complex where the , , and trains connect as well as the bus terminals at that station. Alabama Ave, where those B12 and B25 buses terminate, is not considered Broadway Junction and is adjacent to the East New York Bus Depot and the Alabama Avenue station. Alabama Avenue=East New York.

# 6- That seems to be a historical problem.The B65 used to continue eastward on ENY Ave and Liberty to City Line. When it got truncated the B12 took over the part from Pennsylvania Ave to City Line via Liberty. We also had the old B40 run over part of that route toward Broadway Jct on ENY and Liberty Avenues. Is the proposal to run the extended B45/B65 along with the B12 to Alabama in tandem or send it via Liberty using the old B40's route hitting Alabama from the eastern direction? Last time I was over there there didn't appear to be any potential ridership using the older B40 route. Is there enough space at Alabama to terminate the B12, B25, and another route? It's always bothered me to see the B45/B65s terminate in "no mans land" when there's always the potential to make those routes more useful. Carry on.

The only downside to that scenario is if you live in Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland, or northern NJ. From what I've heard it's a bitch being the vehicle who is the trailblazer on those snowy mornings. The one who the snow plows follow. I worked the pm tour for my whole career. I considered transfers and work trains as pm jobs, even those 55 hr G.O.s I worked on weekends with no relief. I don't ever remember weather being a factor in my case but I knew many good am people who caught crap from the crew office because of conditions on the roads. Even when the LIRR, MNRR, and NJT were being delayed the crew office, or some people in the office, would give employees a hard time. As RTOPRO put it the AMs are intense. I'd say the midnights are the most dangerous for train crews and work gangs, as well as riders. Just my opinion though. Carry on.

The flag, and the chock, indicates "Do Not Move". CED uses the red flags on equipment that's being worked on. I would imagine that System Safety would use a similar method on an "incident" train although I've never encountered one . Maybe an active RTO person can elaborate further.