Fantasy Maps

[TwoTimer]

With the recent onslaught of mostly poorly done maps, what aspect(s) do you think should be included in every map?

 

My ideas by borough:

 

Bronx-

1. Some type of service between the and . Typically the or is mentioned up Third or Park.

2. Something for Co-op. Typically a or extension is mentioned.

 

Manhattan-

1. Its amazing that there are fantasy maps published that leaves out SAS altogether. Wow.

2. Differentiate between the Far Rock and Lefferts services by letter.

3. Responsibly restore recent lost lines of service as needed.

 

Brooklyn-

1. service continuing down Flatbush to Kings Plaza (a very popular one, but of course some leave it out too).

2. Restoring some West End local service to 4th Av (having the return to the West End being that the is on 2Av has been popular in the past).

 

Queens-

1. Extensions to the as it would have been if not for prior financial crunches.

 

Misc.

1. Triboro RX

 

Most of all

 

KEEP IT SIMPLE. Don't forget the subway is not the only mode of travel around (Co-op I always felt would be better served with affordable Metro-North service into both Penn and GC than a subway stop). Make sure most existing roadbeds and rails are accounted for before fantasizing about new ones. I can't remember any map that made note of using Amtrak rail on the West side or in the Bx not for subway service, but for Metro North service as been rumored in past TA documents.

[Grand Concourse]

Brooklyn- via Flatbush to Kings Plaza. SAS more or less replacing the former (Mx) on 4th Av, but terminating at 95th St full time making the a part time line running to Bay Pkwy for the rush hours and 9th Av middays.

 

Bronx- via 3rd Av

 

Manhattan- SAS with a branch on 125th to provide a crosstown service for the northern part of the island. Still prefer annexing the Nassau/Center St line south of Chambers for the SAS rather than to build down Water St.

 

Queens- finishing the QB super express and have a stop at Woodhaven Blvd and 71st St. Service would end at either 71st or continue to 179th to allow the to run express to 179th.

AirTrain service over Astoria Blvd station via Grand Central Pkwy to LGA.

[Fresh Pond]

Simple...don't get "fantasy" confused with "foaming"

 

Almost every map I see, it shows something that's 12 different kinds of impossible and extensions/reroutes that aren't needed/redundant. Not every line needs to be extended

[Gorgor]

There's a reason why it's called a fantasy map. We know service will never look like that, but it's just fun to see what kind of new service patterns we can create. If we all follow a set "guide," every one would look almost the same which would be really dumb.

[IRT Bronx Express]

I agree with you. I'm cool with fantasy maps as long as the extensions makes sense to me. But if the map has randomly drawn lines with no labels, then the map will look like trash in my book.

[TwoTimer]

Well the point of the thread was an idea of what really should be in every map, not a standard protocol.

[KGTeleport]

With the recent onslaught of mostly poorly done maps, what aspect(s) do you think should be included in every map?

 

The most important feature is drawing the whole network yourself in a proper vector graphics package (Inkscape will do), rather than trying to edit someone else's raster map. This isn't just my being a Richard about copyright: it's that adding lines into tight spots on maps has a way of breaking them and looking really really rubbish.

 

I largely agree with your suggestions. I don't think that giving different branches of a trunk line different labels is necessary, but that is a matter of taste.

 

1. service continuing down Flatbush to Kings Plaza (a very popular one, but of course some leave it out too).

 

I'd rather send that down Nostrand to KCC and branch the to go to Kings Plaza (and maybe out into the Rockaways).

 

2. Restoring some West End local service to 4th Av (having the return to the West End being that the is on 2Av has been popular in the past).

 

That's reintroducing complex merging-demerging service patterns. It would be better to run more R trains. Maybe a compromise could be found by extending the R along the Belt Parkway to serve Bath Beach.

 

Queens-

1. Extensions to the as it would have been if not for prior financial crunches.

 

The most important thing in Queens is providing the extra two tracks' express capacity between the East River and Continental Avenue. That's the massive bottleneck that prevents the obvious outer extensions. Better use should also be made of the Port Washington Branch: it's silly to have an under-utilized 2tph line running directly alongside the packed .

 

And perhaps the old chestnuts of lines on the LIE and Union Turnpike should get another airing.

 

KEEP IT SIMPLE.

 

Complex is good if you can draw it. Big cities are complex, so in a way it's inevitable that fantasy subway maps tend in that direction.

 

Don't forget the subway is not the only mode of travel around (Co-op I always felt would be better served with affordable Metro-North service into both Penn and GC than a subway stop).

 

Then maybe there should be regional subway lines on any good fantasy subway map. There are three on mine from a year or two ago.

 

Make sure most existing roadbeds and rails are accounted for before fantasizing about new ones.

 

No, it's okay to close hopeless lines and stations.

 

Manhattan- SAS with a branch on 125th to provide a crosstown service for the northern part of the island.

 

Or maybe bump it a mile further north to 145 (Manhattan) - 149 (Bronx).

[Grand Concourse]

No, 125th because it would hopefully aleviate the M60 as a 'crosstown' route and provide a much faster alternative than the buses above.

 

How would you get a branch from the over to Kings Plaza? If anything it would be easier to have a branch from the Fulton route via Utica.

 

Nostrand would need to be elevated as I think the ground isn't stable enough for a tunnel. So this is why I really doubt Nostrand Av is ideal for an extension.

 

Also the Q35 is fine, no need for a subway line to Rockaway. The Rk Pk isn't even all that crowded.

[Roadcruiser1]

Here are some ideas I will pitch to you.

 

Bronx: Create a Throgs Neck Line the section south of the Pelham Line isn't well serviced and deserves a subway line due to the overloading of the Throgs Neck and Whitestone Bridge, and create an extension to the far western section of Riverdale which is not serviced and the poor people living there can benefit.

 

Manhattan: Extend the to South Ferry giving the people in the West Side of Manhattan better subway service and to remove the crowding of the West Side Highway, and to bring more tourists to the High Line, extend the to 59th St-Columbus Circle to help the people that won't be helped by the extension to South Ferry, create a 34th St Crosstown Line which is needed because tourists and pedestrians overload the buses there. Also there are some tourist attractions that can be helped by this ex: Empire State Building.

 

Queens: Extend the to LaGuardia Airport the buses serving it are extremely crowded and since it's a map screw the NIMBY's, but don't stop there keep extending it till it is a few blocks away from the Throgs Neck Bridge to help the congestion and to allow alleviation of traffic.

 

Brooklyn: Besides extending the to Sheepshead a new subway line should be created to access tourist locations like Floyd Bennetts Field. Extend it alongside Worth St and Utica Avenue and create the Worth Street, and Utica Avenue Line to give more access to the mall and Brooklyn College extend one of the services preferably connected to the Eighth Avenue Line to the Rockaways, and forever kill the Rockaway Park , forever kill the Franklin Avenue by extending it south to Dyker and Dyker Park there are several schools and businesses would gain money from this and extend it to Manhattan alongside the , and remove the ( from the Manhattan Bridge and send the to make up for this and to become the Brighton Express instead. The would become the Culver Express and give the people alongside the Culver Line a shorter waiting time.

 

Staten Island: Branch the off Church Avenue and send it along the Triboro Rx right of way into a new tunnel from 59th St to St George once it gets to St George send it on to the SIR forever killing it, and since it's a fantasy map screw the FRA this would give Staten Islanders access to the rest of New York which they desperately need along with the tolls on the Verrazano Narrows Bridge send a second service into the tunnel to serve the North Shore and West Shore locations to help with development.

 

This is all I can consider for now if you want to look for more this map from the never built IND Second System should help you.

 

[KGTeleport]

No, 125th because it would hopefully aleviate the M60 as a 'crosstown' route and provide a much faster alternative than the buses above.

 

Of course, part of the reason that the M60 is on 125th is because that's where the Triboro Bridge ends up. Unless you're proposing putting the trains on the bridge, they're not constrained as much as buses as to which cross-street they end up on.

 

And really, unless one is planning to cross the East River (or the Hudson River for that matter), journeys on cross-streets are usually short enough that surface LRT would be more appropriate than subways.

 

How would you get a branch from the over to Kings Plaza? If anything it would be easier to have a branch from the Fulton route via Utica.

 

Branch off the express tracks under Prospect Park, interchange with the Brighton Line and the Franklin Shuttle at Prospect Park station, then run straight under Flatbush Avenue. It's pretty much a straight line. Switches would need to be added so that all trains could stop at 4th Avenue, but so long as all trains were on the local by that point, the capacity is easily there for a branch from the South Brooklyn IND.

 

Branching Fulton is less satisfactory: it's a very indirect route and it's already got too many branches. And that's a general point for fantasy maps: two-track trunk routes should only split into two, or in exceptional cases three branches at each end.

 

Nostrand would need to be elevated as I think the ground isn't stable enough for a tunnel. So this is why I really doubt Nostrand Av is ideal for an extension.

 

They cope in St Petersburg and Amsterdam with tunneling in far worse ground conditions.

 

Also the Q35 is fine, no need for a subway line to Rockaway. The Rk Pk isn't even all that crowded.

 

The Rockaway Park Shuttle is the lowest ridership line in the entire system. It is much much worse than the Dyre branch of the and portion of the between 18th Avenue and Coney Island (which are roughly tied as the next worst). That's what I had in mind when I said closing useless lines might not be all that bad.

 

But it is an interesting "what if" having the subway enter the Rockaways from Brooklyn and continue all the way to Far Rockaway. Far Rockaway station has quite reasonable ridership levels, presumably thanks to bus transfers (ultimate fantasy: Nassau County Light Rail!). It might do even better if it were on a reasonably direct subway line, rather than one that zig-zagged all the way over to Ozone Park.

 

And that's probably a couple of other things about fantasy subway maps that are worth mentioning more explicitly:

1) it's a good idea to look at a geographical map to see space objectively, rather than twisted and distorted by the connections that one knows to be there; and:

2) subways aren't buses: it's possible to have corridors with a lot of short-distance bus traffic and virtually no longer-distance subway traffic and vice versa.

[Alargule]

This might indeed be a good time for a separate sub-forum covering anything fantasy related. Be it maps, schedules, cars, signage, signalling...

 

Those who don't want to be bothered by wild fantasies, can go on with their lives in the main forums.

[Grand Concourse]

Of course, part of the reason that the M60 is on 125th is because that's where the Triboro Bridge ends up. Unless you're proposing putting the trains on the bridge, they're not constrained as much as buses as to which cross-street they end up on.

 

And really, unless one is planning to cross the East River (or the Hudson River for that matter), journeys on cross-streets are usually short enough that surface LRT would be more appropriate than subways.

 

 

 

Branch off the express tracks under Prospect Park, interchange with the Brighton Line and the Franklin Shuttle at Prospect Park station, then run straight under Flatbush Avenue. It's pretty much a straight line. Switches would need to be added so that all trains could stop at 4th Avenue, but so long as all trains were on the local by that point, the capacity is easily there for a branch from the South Brooklyn IND.

 

Branching Fulton is less satisfactory: it's a very indirect route and it's already got too many branches. And that's a general point for fantasy maps: two-track trunk routes should only split into two, or in exceptional cases three branches at each end.

 

 

 

They cope in St Petersburg and Amsterdam with tunneling in far worse ground conditions.

 

 

 

The Rockaway Park Shuttle is the lowest ridership line in the entire system. It is much much worse than the Dyre branch of the and portion of the between 18th Avenue and Coney Island (which are roughly tied as the next worst). That's what I had in mind when I said closing useless lines might not be all that bad.

 

But it is an interesting "what if" having the subway enter the Rockaways from Brooklyn and continue all the way to Far Rockaway. Far Rockaway station has quite reasonable ridership levels, presumably thanks to bus transfers (ultimate fantasy: Nassau County Light Rail!). It might do even better if it were on a reasonably direct subway line, rather than one that zig-zagged all the way over to Ozone Park.

 

And that's probably a couple of other things about fantasy subway maps that are worth mentioning more explicitly:

1) it's a good idea to look at a geographical map to see space objectively, rather than twisted and distorted by the connections that one knows to be there; and:

2) subways aren't buses: it's possible to have corridors with a lot of short-distance bus traffic and virtually no longer-distance subway traffic and vice versa.

 

You know what, you brought up many valid and great points. I stand corrected :tup: