Rush hour (5) service Question

[SubwayGuy]

Thanks for your very detailed answer SubwayGuy. I really appreciate that. It explains why I heard the express destination announcement with the next stop being 103 St in one YouTube video recently. I thought it was glitch in the programming (like the "Manhattan-bound" one on downtown trains).

 

Gets better. I've seen trains (Bronx expresses) that had already arrived in Manhattan saying they were Manhattan bound 6 expresses IN MANHATTAN at express stations, despite they were going local.

 

As to the redundant programs, why do I have a feeling it's not limited to just the line?

 

It's not but that's the best example since it has little flexibility for common reroutes.

 

I get that it makes it easier for the conductor so (s)he doesn't have to spend a few minutes adding or deleting stops from the route, but there really needs to be limited to reroutes or very shortened routes only (a shuttle from Atlantic to Flatbush for instance). There also needs to be some sort of middle ground with these programs. We went from having so few routings that the to Utica Av (a very common routing) wasn't in the system to having a boatload with practically the same thing, taking up space unnecessarily. I bet you the R160s are even more bloated with these unnecessary programs.

 

Problem is a lot of the "seemingly" redundant ones ARE necessary. I'll give an example using the . I'm going to pretend no programs exist and I'm the one picking the ones that will go in. You'll see quickly how fast you get a lot of them..Complicated answer but a thought exercise for all who dare to read:

 

SOUTHBOUND

For example, for the 5 line, you need the following southbound routes MINIMUM for regular service:

-Dyre->180th (shuttle)

-Dyre->Bowling Green (Bx Lcl, Lex Exp)

-Dyre->Bowling Green (Express)

-Dyre->Flatbush (Bx Lcl, Lex Exp, EPkwy Exp)

-Dyre->Flatbush (Express)

-Dyre->Utica (Bx Lcl, Lex Exp, EPkwy Exp)

-Dyre->Utica (Express)

-241st->Flatbush (Express)*

-241st->Utica (Express)*

 

*Note: this would be used for trains from 238th but allows more flexibility than making the program from 238th as the crew can just synchronize at 238th. Again, whether or not a train "starts" on the origin station in the program is irrelevant, the only things that matter are the DESTINATION, LIST OF POSSIBLY INCLUDED STATIONS, and DESCRIPTIVE ROUTING.

 

So those are all necessary for REGULAR service. That's 9 programs already (East 180th put ins can be synchronized from Dyre programs), and these are only southbound. The reason they are necessary is distinguishing manhattan locals and bronx expresses is important. If the wrong route is chosen, or a correct one unavailable, and stops need to be added in or taken out, the train will still announce the routing in the original program (hence the "5 express, next stop 28th street" example).

 

Now, you'll also need variants of the above for occasional changes to regular service (5 trains WILL get sent to New Lots sometimes if the road blows up).

 

241st->New Lots (Express)*

241st->New Lots (Bx Lcl, Lex Exp, EPkwy Exp)*

Dyre->New Lots (Express)

Dyre->New Lots (Bx Lcl, Lex Exp, EPkwy Exp)

 

*Again, see italicized note from earlier.

 

4 more programs. Total 13 already. AND you need a couple of programs for reroutes via 7th Avenue. This in theory should only affect trains out of Dyre, as trains out of 241st going via 7th Ave should be "called" 2's.

 

Dyre->Flatbush (Bx Lcl, Via 7th Ave Exp, EPkwy Exp After Atlantic)

Dyre->Flatbush (Bx Exp, Via 7th Ave Exp, EPkwy Exp After Atlantic)

Dyre->Utica (Bx Lcl, Via 7th Ave Exp, EPkwy Exp After Atlantic)

Dyre->Utica (Bx Exp, Via 7th Ave Exp, EPkwy Exp After Atlantic)

Dyre->New Lots (Bx Lcl, Via 7th Ave Exp, EPkwy Exp After Atlantic)

Dyre->New Lots (Bx Exp, Via 7th Ave Exp, EPkwy Exp After Atlantic)

 

6 more programs. Total 19.

 

Now you need some GO programs. Here are southbound programs for common ones without going overboard:

Dyre->Grand Central (Bx Lcl, Lex Exp)

Dyre->149th - GC (Bx Lcl)

Dyre->125th (Bx Lcl)

Dyre->Brooklyn Bridge (Bx Lcl, Lex Exp)

Dyre->Brooklyn Bridge (Local)

Dyre->Bowling Green (Local)

Dyre->Atlantic Ave (Bx Lcl, Lex Exp)

Dyre->Atlantic Ave (Bx Lcl, Lex Lcl)

241st->Flatbush (Local)

241st->Bowling Green (Local)

149th - GC->Bowling Green (Lex Av Exp)

149th - GC->Flatbush (Express)

 

12 more programs. Total 31.

 

That gives you good, but not complete, flexibility with southbound service.

 

But what about northbound? I chose southbound because frankly it's easier. Now you've got to mirror ALL the possible routes we just discussed, only you've got to include embedded routes now as well (separate routes for 238 and 241, which wasn't needed southbound). So just mirroring the 9 programs we started with for "regular service":

 

NORTHBOUND

180th->Dyre (shuttle)

Bowling Green->Dyre (Lex Exp, Bx Lcl)

Bowling Green->Dyre (Express)

Flatbush->Dyre (EPkwy Exp, Lex Exp, Bx Lcl)

Flatbush->Dyre (Express)

New Lots->Dyre (EPkwy Exp, Lex Exp, Bx Lcl)*

New Lots->Dyre (Express)*

Flatbush->238th (Express)

New Lots->238th (Express)*

 

*New Lots chosen as origin for most flexibility since trains leaving from Utica can synchronize at Utica.

 

So 9 matching northbound programs just like the southbound 9. Only not really. Now you've got to add programs for the trains to East 180th, just to cover regular service, and you lost the ability to program a train to 241st since 238th is the typical destination (and like we said earlier, destination matters!). Note I'm not adding programs to Gun Hill Rd even though that ends up being a destination for trains supposedly going to 238th. That's a call made by the dispatcher at Unionport at the last minute, it's not scheduled, so I haven't included it.

 

So add the following just for regular service and common reroutes:

Bowling Green->E. 180th St. (Lex Exp, Bx Lcl)

Bowling Green->E. 180th St. (Express)

Flatbush->180th (EPkwy Exp, Lex Exp, Bx Lcl)

Flatbush->180th (Express)

New Lots->180th (EPkwy Exp, Lex Exp, Bx Lcl)*

New Lots->180th (Express)*

Flatbush->238th (EPkwy Exp, Lex Exp, Bx Lcl)

New Lots->238th (EPkwy Exp, Lex Exp, Bx Lcl)

 

*See italic note above.

 

We'll include programs to 241st under GO programs. However you've got 8 programs in addition to the 9 just for regularly scheduled service, making for 17 routes just to cover reasonable variants of normal service.

 

So that's a total of 26 unique programs (9 southbound 17 northbound) just for the basic necessities of regular service plus a few reasonable options.

 

Add reroutes via 7th Ave. Now a train most often (but not always!) won't know from the terminal that it's being rerouted via 7th Ave, and GO's occurring on weekends or overnights that did this would call for the train to be resigned as a 2. So it's sufficient to put all these routes from Flatbush. Train crews could re-program if they knew they're being rerouted, as early as Franklin Avenue:

Flatbush->Dyre (EPkwy Exp Until Atlantic, Via 7th Ave Exp, Bx Lcl)

Flatbush->Dyre (EPkwy Exp Until Atlantic, Via 7th Ave Exp, Bx Exp)

Flatbush->238th (EPkwy Exp Until Atlantic, Via 7th Ave Exp, Bx Lcl)

Flatbush->238th (EPkwy Exp Until Atlantic, Via 7th Ave Exp, Bx Exp)

Flatbush->180th (EPkwy Exp Until Atlantic, Via 7th Ave Exp, Bx Lcl)

Flatbush->180th (EPkwy Exp Until Atlantic, Via 7th Ave Exp, Bx Exp

 

Whoa. 6 new routes. Total 23 northbound.

 

A lot of the GO Programs that were necessary southbound are not necessary northbound due to the ability to synchronize en route. These, however, would be (this is where 241st routes get covered):

Bowling Green->149th - GC (Lex Av Exp)

Flatbush->149th - GC (Express)

New Lots->149th - GC (Express)

Flatbush->241st (EPkwy Exp, Lex Av Exp, Bx Lcl)

New Lots->241st (EPkwy Exp, Lex Av Exp, Bx Lcl)

Bowling Green->241st (Lex Av Exp, Bx Lcl)

 

6 new routes. 29 northbound now. So we've got 60 programs just to cover regular service, common reroutes (especially emergency reroutes), and common general orders.

 

We'll add a few exotic possible GO options for good measure, because every once in a while these things do come up:

 

Woodlawn->Bowling Green (Bx Lcl, Lex Av Exp)

Woodlawn->Flatbush (Bx Lcl, Lex Av Exp, EPkwy Exp)

Bowling Green->Woodlawn (Lex Av Exp, Bx Lcl)

Flatbush->Woodlawn (EPkwy Exp, Lex Av Exp, Bx Lcl)

 

3rd Ave/138th->Bowling Green (Lex Av Exp)

3rd Ave/138th->Flatbush (Express)

Bowling Green->3rd Ave/138th (Lex Av Exp)

Flatbush->3rd Ave/138th (Express)

 

So 8 more programs, bringing the total to 68.

 

Hey, I did better than the TA. More flexibility. TA has at least 71 routes for the 5 line. But I didn't really save much "space"...in summary, the very large numbers of routes are (believe it or not) necessary to cope with some of the crazier service changes that occur.

[GreatOne2k]

A few other programs might as well be added for GOs

 

241st->149th - GC (Bx Lcl)

241st->125th (Bx Lcl)

 

 

Flatbush->241st (Express)

New Lots->241st (Express)

 

 

 

In the case of the line 'redundant' programs do have some differences

 

Pelham-> Brooklyn Bridge ("This is a Manhattan Bound 6 train")

177th-> Brooklyn Bridge ("This is a Manhattan Bound 6 local train")

[Trainmaster5]

@ SubwayGuy

Where were you when I needed you when they put the NTT on the line? You're right about the redundant programs but when the NTT arrived on our line they left out a few of the basic ones. As someone pointed out (Lance?) the basic BX local-Lex-EPY express to Utica was missing. S/b after leaving Bowling Green we had NO automated announcements. To improvise my C/R and I would turn off the display and make manual announcements from Borough Hall to Utica. We'd even hold our train to make a connection with the s/b at Nevins St or Franklin Ave to make sure our passengers could make that Flatbush transfer. I have to give credit to our co-workers on that train, as well as our regular riders, who made it easier for those passengers who were unaware of our destination (Utica). I can remember a TSS who threatened to write up both train crews. He said that both crews were delaying service at Nevins St nightly and he reported it to RCC. To his chagrin I made a call to RCC explaining our problems with the NTT. Heck, I'm still angry he didn't even attend the ceremony where my C/R and I received awards for our " outstanding service" and he never even read my commendation from our General Supt. for my operation. If he did show up the super was going to make the TSS read it out loud to the assembled bigwigs from RTO, Car Equipment, and the others. I posted the above to point out how clueless some supervisors are to what train crews need to perform their jobs professionally and what train crews who try to improvise to correct the system's shortcomings are put through. The regular riders of both intervals, and , understood the problem, but not someone who should have recognized it ! We're sometimes put through the wringer for someone else's mistakes. Just my rant. Carry on.

[SubwayGuy]

A few other programs might as well be added for GOs

 

241st->149th - GC (Bx Lcl)

That routing would be signed as a , never as a .

 

241st->125th (Bx Lcl)

Possible, but unlikely. Remember - the only main reason to ever switch Dyre and 241st as terminals is overnight or on weekends (when work is not being done on either branch) so that crew assignments can match the original scheduling to cut overtime costs. Hence why on those GO's (such as Dyre to South Ferry via 7th Av and 241st to Flatbush via Lex Av), trains are run by crews and vice versa.

 

Flatbush->241st (Express)

New Lots->241st (Express)

Again, possible but very unlikely. The only scenario for this would be a midday GO that knocked out the entire Dyre Ave line and 3 track from south of Jackson to south of East 180th, AND something that somehow prevented the train from running at all (like emergency GO to repair all 3 yard leads at 239th??).

 

Any weekend GO (which is usually when you see express in the Bronx), the 5 is not coming from Flatbush, or if it is, that's the GO itself and they're not going to combine it with others.

 

Flat->241st Express could serve a bit of purpose, so if we add it to that list, it makes 69, still two fewer than TA.

 

In the case of the line 'redundant' programs do have some differences

 

Pelham-> Brooklyn Bridge ("This is a Manhattan Bound 6 train")

177th-> Brooklyn Bridge ("This is a Manhattan Bound 6 local train")

 

Those programs aren't redundant. 6 Pelham to Bridge local is for all the nonpeak service trains. Parkchester to Brooklyn Bridge is specifically for the locals out of (or to) Parkchester when the is running, and the program makes different announcements to specifically emphasize that the 6 is local in the Bronx, and that transfer is available to the 6 express at express stations.

[SubwayGuy]

@ SubwayGuy

Where were you when I needed you when they put the NTT on the line? You're right about the redundant programs but when the NTT arrived on our line they left out a few of the basic ones. As someone pointed out (Lance?) the basic BX local-Lex-EPY express to Utica was missing. S/b after leaving Bowling Green we had NO automated announcements. To improvise my C/R and I would turn off the display and make manual announcements from Borough Hall to Utica. We'd even hold our train to make a connection with the s/b at Nevins St or Franklin Ave to make sure our passengers could make that Flatbush transfer. I have to give credit to our co-workers on that train, as well as our regular riders, who made it easier for those passengers who were unaware of our destination (Utica). I can remember a TSS who threatened to write up both train crews. He said that both crews were delaying service at Nevins St nightly and he reported it to RCC. To his chagrin I made a call to RCC explaining our problems with the NTT. Heck, I'm still angry he didn't even attend the ceremony where my C/R and I received awards for our " outstanding service" and he never even read my commendation from our General Supt. for my operation. If he did show up the super was going to make the TSS read it out loud to the assembled bigwigs from RTO, Car Equipment, and the others. I posted the above to point out how clueless some supervisors are to what train crews need to perform their jobs professionally and what train crews who try to improvise to correct the system's shortcomings are put through. The regular riders of both intervals, and , understood the problem, but not someone who should have recognized it ! We're sometimes put through the wringer for someone else's mistakes. Just my rant. Carry on.

 

Excellent story. At least the "good guys" won out in the end.

 

NTT programming also seems to be based on time in some cases. If the train clock thinks the interval is 3AM, it often won't allow the loading of a Dyre to Flatbush route (the route won't show up on the route list). There's ways around this problem, but it does seem kind of silly and another unnecessary reason to limit the computer's flexibility.

 

One really cool tech idea I'd like to see them pursue in the future (read: next 20 years) programming the entire map of the division into the computer and adding a route builder for when a pre-packaged program doesn't exist for a route. Still have a good amount of "ready to go" programs in the computer, but also create the "route builder" that uses that map information for when a program doesn't exist that allows a crew to pick an origin, reachable destination (ie not possible to go from 148th/Lenox to Brooklyn Bridge), and major routings.

 

Example: due to some bizarre GO, the is going from 241st to New Lots via Bronx express, Lexington Avenue local, and Eastern Parkway local after Atlantic. With such an idea, a route could be built as follows:

 

Select origin->Wakefield/241st.

Select destination->New Lots Av.

Select routing->East Side.

Describe routing #1->Bronx: Express.

Describe routing #2->Manhattan: Local.

Describe routing #3->Eastern Parkway: Local after Atlantic.

ACCEPT.

 

...and all relevant stations would load with the appropriate skip or active status. And stations could still be manually added in or dropped out as needed, but the announcements would be based off the routing and descriptive routing. AND, most importantly, if a terminal is atypical, updating not only the displays but also the announcements for the new terminal as follows. Same example as above, except the train is going to Pennsylvania Ave. not New Lots (we'll pretend a GO has knocked out Van Siclen and New Lots).

 

Select origin->Wakefield/241st.

Select destination->New Lots Av.

Select routing->East Side.

Describe routing #1->Bronx: Express.

Describe routing #2->Manhattan: Local.

Describe routing #3->Eastern Parkway: Local after Atlantic.

ACCEPT. Edit Stations.

SKIP Van Siclen

SKIP New Lots

ACCEPT.

 

Then when you get to Brooklyn, automatically "This is a Pennsylvania Avenue bound 5 train. The next stop is Nevins Street."

 

Currently if you were to take a New Lots program and knock out the last two stations, the displays would list Pennsylvania Av as the terminal, but you'd get to Junius Street and you'd hear this: "This is a New Lots Avenue bound ## train. The next and last stop is Pennsylvania Avenue."

[TwoTimer]

I guess u mean after a goh or sms.

[GreatOne2k]

That routing would be signed as a , never as a .

 

 

MTA calls this a during weekend GOs, replaces when the shuttle buses run from 96 St to 149 St.

 

Also MTA uses a 241st-> Grand central 42nd GO routing as well sometimes

 

Possible, but unlikely. Remember - the only main reason to ever switch Dyre and 241st as terminals is overnight or on weekends (when work is not being done on either branch) so that crew assignments can match the original scheduling to cut overtime costs. Hence why on those GO's (such as Dyre to South Ferry via 7th Av and 241st to Flatbush via Lex Av), trains are run by crews and vice versa.

 

 

Unless MTA is running shuttle buses on the between 96 St and 149 St, then the is running on both lines in the Bronx.

 

 

 

Again, possible but very unlikely. The only scenario for this would be a midday GO that knocked out the entire Dyre Ave line and 3 track from south of Jackson to south of East 180th, AND something that somehow prevented the train from running at all (like emergency GO to repair all 3 yard leads at 239th??).

 

Any weekend GO (which is usually when you see express in the Bronx), the 5 is not coming from Flatbush, or if it is, that's the GO itself and they're not going to combine it with others.

 

Flat->241st Express could serve a bit of purpose, so if we add it to that list, it makes 69, still two fewer than TA.

 

 

 

There was a recent weekend (at least one day) in which the went Flatbush-> 241st (Express)

 

Those programs aren't redundant. 6 Pelham to Bridge local is for all the nonpeak service trains. Parkchester to Brooklyn Bridge is specifically for the locals out of (or to) Parkchester when the is running, and the program makes different announcements to specifically emphasize that the 6 is local in the Bronx, and that transfer is available to the 6 express at express stations.

 

Pelham-> Brooklyn Bridge also announces transfers to the express. It is more about the times (6am-10am S/B, 3pm-7pm N/B), not the programs themselves (as long as they have the same route). The now announces transfer to the local all day long where before it only made those announcements during peak times.

[mark1447]

 

 

 

Unless MTA is running shuttle buses on the between 96 St and 149 St, then the is running on both lines in the Bronx.

 

 

 

 

Not quite. Sometimes the would have the running as a shuttle from Mott to E241. But a lot of times the would replace it.

[GreatOne2k]

Not quite. Sometimes the would have the running as a shuttle from Mott to E241. But a lot of times the would replace it.

 

Weekday late nights the would run as a shuttle, weekends (for consistency) the would run as the late night shuttle

[mark1447]

Weekday late nights the would run as a shuttle, weekends (for consistency) the would run as the late night shuttle

 

Weekdays?

 

Im talking about weekends. If the were replaced by the bus from Mott to 96th, then its ether the t/a would have the run all weekend as a shuttle or have the replace it to 241st, with late nights to 149th.

[SubwayGuy]

Pelham-> Brooklyn Bridge also announces transfers to the express. It is more about the times (6am-10am S/B, 3pm-7pm N/B), not the programs themselves (as long as they have the same route). The now announces transfer to the local all day long where before it only made those announcements during peak times.

 

Sometimes it's about the days and times, sometimes it's about the programs. It depends.

 

But the programs do matter. Sometimes if a train hasn't been updated and an atypical program is loaded, you'll hear announcements for transfers to the V and W trains still. Which you may not hear if a different program is loaded.

 

Some programs don't have updated station names. Seemingly half of the R142A fleet out of Westchester Yd calls that station "Morrison-Sound View Avenues" and the other half calls it "Morrison Avenue, Sound View."

 

You've got programs (5 programs mostly, if not exclusively) that refer to the station as "Nereid Avenue, 238th Street" while on the 2 programs it's "Nereid Avenue". Program DOES matter.

[SubwayGuy]

Usually when the is running as a "shuttle" from Mott->241, they're running split service (this occurs commonly during overnights, and occasionally on weekends). If that's the case, the will usually be cut back to shuttle only from Dyre->180th to allow them to do work on one of the tracks between Mott and Jackson Avenue (AND not have 3 service with needing to relay trains within the limits of Mott Lower) which is the most common reason to run that GO, although it can also be run if work is being done on any of the tracks from Mott to south of East 180th really.

 

If they need extra east side service, the can be run in two sections, Mott Upper->Bowling Green, and Dyre Shuttle.

[SubwayGuy]

I guess u mean after a goh or sms.

 

Yeah, or in future orders of trains. It would be helpful to be able to build routes in the case where none existed.