Man Maimed By Train On The Upper West Side

[Turbo19]

A man was struck by a train on the Upper West Side last night. According to police, the incident happened around 1 a.m. just as the train was arriving at Central Park West and 96th Street. The man was struck by a northbound A train; he was taken to St. Luke's Hospital in serious condition.

Police said he was likely to survive, but he suffered serious leg injuries that would likely require amputation. It's unclear what precipitated the incident, but no criminality is suspected.

Read: Source

[realizm]

I'm almost practically keeping a tally of 12-9 incidents. Something is wrong here. This cant be media hype, obviously these sad events of a gresome nature is occurring way too frequently. Perhaps the MTA may have to consider other alternatives to motion detectors to pick up persons on the tracks as planned to be tested in a pending pilot program.

 

On the flip side from what I am reading we shouldnt blame the train crew either. Its impossible for T/Os to activate BIE and stop the train immediately, as speed and momentum vs. inertia is in play here from the response time of the T/O. Which is why the NYPD made the right call here in not suspecting criminality here. 

 

My condolences to the man who is critically injured, as well as the train crews emotionally tramatized by the incident.

[cl94]

With such a large system, 12-9s are inevitable. With differing types of rolling stock, it is insanely hard to prevent them with the use of barriers. Stations that only see one car length (all IRT, BMT Eastern Division) could have platform screen doors installed at the expense of platform width. Nothing could get on the tracks. The rest of the B Division won't be so lucky, as all stations not covered by the above could see both 60 and 75 foot cars, which have different door locations. This station, for example, sees trains of both lengths and will until the R68/As are retired in the distant future, unleses, of course, the R211s and future orders return to 75 foot cars. You can't use doors.

 

As a short-term fix, motion detectors may be the way to go. If somebody or something falls below platform level, it is detected and timers are activated on the track as it approaches the station so T/Os will have a chance of stopping.

[realizm]

With such a large system, 12-9s are inevitable. With differing types of rolling stock, it is insanely hard to prevent them with the use of barriers. Stations that only see one car length (all IRT, BMT Eastern Division) could have platform screen doors installed at the expense of platform width. Nothing could get on the tracks. The rest of the B Division won't be so lucky, as all stations not covered by the above could see both 60 and 75 foot cars, which have different door locations. This station, for example, sees trains of both lengths and will until the R68/As are retired in the distant future, unleses, of course, the R211s and future orders return to 75 foot cars. You can't use doors.

 

As a short-term fix, motion detectors may be the way to go. If somebody or something falls below platform level, it is detected and timers are activated on the track as it approaches the station so T/Os will have a chance of stopping.

Indeed thats the problems associated with platform screen doors, different rolling stock with different door and cab arrangement. Good point.

 

Motion detectors that can alert the T/O in the cab.... That may be tricky to install on conventional block signalling systems and on SMEE rolling stock with 20th Century technology. If CBTC and NTTs now hardwired to work with motion detectors on the fly lets say, now were talking. I'm no engineer but with my layman knowledge I'm inclined to say that your theory may work there.

[cl94]

Indeed thats the problems associated with platform screen doors, different rolling stock with different door and cab arrangement. Good point.

 

Motion detectors that can alert the T/O in the cab.... That may be tricky to install on conventional block signalling systems and on SMEE rolling stock with 20th Century technology. If CBTC and NTTs now hardwired to work with motion detectors on the fly lets say, now were talking. I'm no engineer but with my layman knowledge I'm inclined to say that your theory may work there.

 

It really isn't all that difficult. The motion detector trips a circuit which would set up a line of lunar whites for a few blocks before where the detector recorded an issue. Basically, a modified slide fence, except the passage of one train would clear the fault. Isn't even all that difficult to wire into an existing system. They'd have to replace a few signals before every station to add the lunar white aspect, of course. ATO is even easier. Cab signal activates and the train has to proceed at reduced speed.

[realizm]

It really isn't all that difficult. The motion detector trips a circuit which would set up a line of lunar whites for a few blocks before where the detector recorded an issue. Basically, a modified slide fence, except the passage of one train would clear the fault. Isn't even all that difficult to wire into an existing system. They'd have to replace a few signals before every station to add the lunar white aspect, of course. ATO is even easier. Cab signal activates and the train has to proceed at reduced speed.

I see what you are saying, thanks for refreshing my memory on this.

 

 

So in other words, the way the intrusion detection systems work is that sensors installed in termal image cameras as well as CCTV transmit live video to RCC when a rider falls, jumps into the tracksor is pushed to the tracks. Each system installed (as you mentioned) is also additionally designed in such a way so as to activate trackside signals that tell approaching train crews to go into BIE.

 

Now the question is, what is the margin for error with such a system installed? Will it work accurately and without error? I am aware that biosensors are capable to accurately distinguish human beings from inanimate objects falling into the tracks as infrared detectors and the hardware to run it can detect human body tempertures, quickly to make the distinction. (A borrow from military technology)

[cl94]

Pretty much. The tech exists to just activate timers so the next train approaches at reduced speed. The infrared might not be necessary, per se, because somebody could (theoretically) drop a bag of bricks onto the tracks and the train would still need to know. An object trips 2-3 detectors and the reduced speed warning is issued. If a train approaches and sees no issue, it can proceed normally. The technology is pretty accurate, and if there's an issue, it would be fail-secure, such that a system fault would activate the timers. Obviously not the ideal solution, but it's relatively simple to install and is acceptable for all types of rolling stock. Such a system should only be used in places where barriers are not feasible, as those are preferred and more resistant to failure.

[itmaybeokay]

Indeed thats the problems associated with platform screen doors, different rolling stock with different door and cab arrangement. Good point.

 

Motion detectors that can alert the T/O in the cab.... That may be tricky to install on conventional block signalling systems and on SMEE rolling stock with 20th Century technology. If CBTC and NTTs now hardwired to work with motion detectors on the fly lets say, now were talking. I'm no engineer but with my layman knowledge I'm inclined to say that your theory may work there.

 

I don't even think it needs to remotely alert the cab or activate timers. I think it merely needs to activate the same yellow blinking lights put up for track workers. That will slow the driver down to 10mph prepared to stop within vision. 

 

 

Now the question is, what is the margin for error with such a system installed? Will it work accurately and without error? I am aware that biosensors are capable to accurately distinguish human beings from inanimate objects falling into the tracks as infrared detectors and the hardware to run it can detect human body tempertures, quickly to make the distinction. (A borrow from military technology)

 

By using multiple sensing technologies the margin of error could be reduced to near zero. If there's an indication that's below threshold, It might still send an alarm to RCC to visually investigate via cameras. Also, I don't think we'll be sending trains into BIE willy-nilly. Dead slow prepared to stop within vision ought to be good enough to save many lives. 

[Jsunflyguy]

Is the average person spending more than 20 seconds on the track before impact. I think a good PSA on how to react would also help for non-suicides as most people waste time climbing to the platform instead of running to the front of the station allowing the M/M more time to stop.

[realizm]

Is the average person spending more than 20 seconds on the track before impact. I think a good PSA on how to react would also help for non-suicides as most people waste time climbing to the platform instead of running to the front of the station allowing the M/M more time to stop.

 

Thats good direction on your part, brilliant!

[itmaybeokay]

Is the average person spending more than 20 seconds on the track before impact. I think a good PSA on how to react would also help for non-suicides as most people waste time climbing to the platform instead of running to the front of the station allowing the M/M more time to stop.

 

Agreed - I think a decent portion of these injuries and fatalities could be prevented if people didn't try to climb back up onto the platform. Running to the far end of the station both gives the motorman more time to stop, and gives the victim access to the ladder or stairs usually located there... 

[bobtehpanda]

I'm almost practically keeping a tally of 12-9 incidents. Something is wrong here. This cant be media hype, obviously these sad events of a gresome nature is occurring way too frequently. Perhaps the MTA may have to consider other alternatives to motion detectors to pick up persons on the tracks as planned to be tested in a pending pilot program.

 

On the flip side from what I am reading we shouldnt blame the train crew either. Its impossible for T/Os to activate BIE and stop the train immediately, as speed and momentum vs. inertia is in play here from the response time of the T/O. Which is why the NYPD made the right call here in not suspecting criminality here. 

 

My condolences to the man who is critically injured, as well as the train crews emotionally tramatized by the incident.

 

12-9 rates have actually remained fairly stable compared to previous years. It's just that now that this city can experience up to a full week without murders or homicides, the tabloids have less to cover.

[Vistausss]

With such a large system, 12-9s are inevitable. With differing types of rolling stock, it is insanely hard to prevent them with the use of barriers. Stations that only see one car length (all IRT, BMT Eastern Division) could have platform screen doors installed at the expense of platform width. Nothing could get on the tracks. The rest of the B Division won't be so lucky, as all stations not covered by the above could see both 60 and 75 foot cars, which have different door locations. This station, for example, sees trains of both lengths and will until the R68/As are retired in the distant future, unleses, of course, the R211s and future orders return to 75 foot cars. You can't use doors.

 

As a short-term fix, motion detectors may be the way to go. If somebody or something falls below platform level, it is detected and timers are activated on the track as it approaches the station so T/Os will have a chance of stopping.

 

Even if they install platform screen doors, people can still reach trains by climbing up an elevated structure. And yes, I can give you some examples, some people are crazy enough to do that for a 12-9.

[realizm]

12-9 rates have actually remained fairly stable compared to previous years. It's just that now that this city can experience up to a full week without murders or homicides, the tabloids have less to cover.

 

I havent checked the numbers but I trust your assessment as the trends you are describing to me sounds familiar. However we may have to both agree to the fact that because of the intense media coverage and tsimply the horrid nature of such accidents in itself, the MTA in its effort to maintain proper public relations with its customers are taking desicive steps to nail this problem concerning these gruesome and horrific subway accidents.

 

 

Agreed - I think a decent portion of these injuries and fatalities could be prevented if people didn't try to climb back up onto the platform. Running to the far end of the station both gives the motorman more time to stop, and gives the victim access to the ladder or stairs usually located there...

Yes Jsunflyguy gave wise words there. Something for all of us to consider if even we ever end up in such a dangerous situation ourselves. I'm glad he pointed this out.

[Jsunflyguy]

There are many ways to circumvent the barriers for intentional suicide, to be frank I don't think we should be using infrastructure to mitigate those incidents. There are many ways to defeat these systems (jumping later where an emergency application won't help, jumping between cars, climbing out the end doors, etc). Whether the person uses the MTA, a cab, a bridge, a gun or a cop is irrelevant. Although police shootings are probably cheaper.

Rather outreach to lower suicide in general will do better, but New Yorkers don't really care if the person is going to kill themselves, they care about the train being late. An item that I would be interested in (and should be studied) is the precise location of the 12-9. Perhaps its a coincidence but all the pictures that I've seen the people end up under the 1st or 2nd car and the impact happens at the front half of the platform, considering that's 120-150ft a person on a full sprint can cover that.

[QM1to6Ave]

There are many ways to circumvent the barriers for intentional suicide, to be frank I don't think we should be using infrastructure to mitigate those incidents. There are many ways to defeat these systems (jumping later where an emergency application won't help, jumping between cars, climbing out the end doors, etc). Whether the person uses the MTA, a cab, a bridge, a gun or a cop is irrelevant. Although police shootings are probably cheaper.

 

Rather outreach to lower suicide in general will do better, but New Yorkers don't really care if the person is going to kill themselves, they care about the train being late. An item that I would be interested in (and should be studied) is the precise location of the 12-9. Perhaps its a coincidence but all the pictures that I've seen the people end up under the 1st or 2nd car and the impact happens at the front half of the platform, considering that's 120-150ft a person on a full sprint can cover that.

I agree that a PSA for how to react if you fall on the tracks would probably help save some people, and I think that's a great idea. However, also keep in mind that a lot of people who fall down are a-drunk or b-hit their heads when then fall, or trip on the rail as they get up, and are disoriented. For those people, a PSA probably would not help that much. 

[Jsunflyguy]

Indeed I understand those things, I only mean to make whatever influence it can. I also have in mind the people on the platform who will be in the situation as well, and can offer guidance or will know not to waste time pulling them up but get them to go in the right direction.
Also I think there is a variance on how drunk a person may be to fall to the tracks, admittedly a person in a drunken stupor is hopeless unless someone goes and gets them; As for the injuries who knows how people react those, that's about as much a roll of the dice as we have now.

[realizm]

Strange enough this morning as I was heading to work at 36th Street (Brooklyn BMT) out of the blue I saw a straphanger jump on the tracks. Why? I have no idea. He did hoist himself up and get back on the platform. Which wasn't wise because it isn't too easy to see the incoming from the BMT West End line, it may be too late while finding whatever he was looking for on the roadbed before he gets clipped by a several ton set of R68's.

 

It makes me wonder sometimes.

[Turbo19]

Strange enough this morning as I was heading to work at 36th Street (Brooklyn BMT) out of the blue I saw a straphanger jump on the tracks. Why? I have no idea. He did hoist himself up and get back on the platform. Which wasn't wise because it isn't too easy to see the incoming from the BMT West End line, it may be too late while finding whatever he was looking for on the roadbed before he gets clipped by a several ton set of R68's.

 

It makes me wonder sometimes.

What is life without risk? lol.