Question Regarding T/O & C/R at same time?

[wyndnfire8]

Hello all,

 

I started a new topic because I have not seen anything of my situation in the other topics and trust me I've spent hours browsing around. I started the process for train operator and just waiting to hear from them to go for the medical evaluation and last Friday I also mailed out to have my name restored to the conductors list. I called the DCAS automated system and I have already been restored for the conductors list. I did that because after reading around here I read it takes about 3 to 4 months before I would hear anything but in less than a week my name is restored.The reason for my decision to have my name restored to the conductors list was just in case if everything goes well with medical evaluation for train operator and I start school car but in he event school car doesn't go well then I have back up with the MTA and go for the conductor process. While is common sense to of course go with the train operator process because of more money.... trruly my main concern is leaving my current job of 18 years to pursue the train operator and end up not doing well and not having a job at all. My concern at this point is what should I do if MTA Contacts me to start process for conductor sooner then MTA contacting me for train operator medical evaluation. Do I start process with conductor as well? Is that possible or what if I get contacted for conductor while in schoolcar? I wouldn't want to start school car and get called down to start conductor processing but of course I won't be able to do that because I Would be in schoolcar?And from what I've read on here it's best to start out as a conductor just to get your foot in the door even though less money.....is school car really that more intense than conductors training? I'm sorry these questions seem silly but I would like to know how to proceed and what options I do or would have and as well as ensuring I am employed continuously . Hope all of this makes sense and any kind of insight would be greatly appreciated .

[MTAhopefullMatt]

I can only speak to the train operator side of things. Yes, school car for train operators is that intense. In my class five people (including me) washed out and two others quit to return to their old non-transit jobs. That is a much worse result than usual, though. I'm taking the conductor exam this spring. Others can speak about what conductor school car is like.

 

Ideally you can take a 3-month leave from your former job and return to it if you wash out. Most people who make it through the first 3 months of train operator school car seem to make it through the entire program, though there's a remote possibility you could fail the second signals exam or the road exam given 8-9 months in.

[+Young+]

First of all, I updated the title to reflect the specific questions you were asking.

 

Second, in my opinion, take the Conductor exam. It's always good to have a backup, since we never exactly know what the future holds for us...

[wyndnfire8]

I can only speak to the train operator side of things. Yes, school car for train operators is that intense. In my class five people (including me) washed out and two others quit to return to their old non-transit jobs. That is a much worse result than usual, though. I'm taking the conductor exam this spring. Others can speak about what conductor school car is like.

Ideally you can take a 3-month leave from your former job and return to it if you wash out. Most people who make it through the first 3 months of train operator school car seem to make it through the entire program, though there's a remote possibility you could fail the second signals exam or the road exam given 8-9 months in.

y

 

Thank you Mtahopeful, I mean after reading around here....I totally understand that school car will take hard work and putting effort into it as well. It s the 2 signal exams where you have to score perfect that makes me feel very indecisive in whether I should proceed or just wait to get called for conductors and now that my name is restored.

[roadpilot]

I would take the C/R job first then take the promotion test for T/O. If you are already in the system and you don't like T/O or flunk training you just go back to your former title C/R. No harm no foul.

[wyndnfire8]

First of all, I updated the title to reflect the specific questions you were asking.

 

Second, in my opinion, take the Conductor exam. It's always good to have a backup, since we never exactly know what the future holds for us...

thank you for updating title. I have already done the 1st drug test for TO and restored my name to the list for previous conductors exam as back up but still indecisive because not sure when I would be called to start pre-employment for CR and have already begun pre-employment for TO and just not sure because what if CR calls while in early stages of school car and haven't taken at least 1st signal exam etc.... Do I take chance and go through with TO schoolcar and not proceed with CR pre employment? I guess decisions and or taking chances Is the only options should that arise. I don't know.

[wyndnfire8]

I would take the C/R job first then take the promotion test for T/O. If you are already in the system and you don't like T/O or flunk training you just go back to your former title C/R. No harm no foul.

I would take the C/R job first then take the promotion test for T/O. If you are already in the system and you don't like T/O or flunk training you just go back to your former title C/R. No harm no foul.

I was thinking that too.... But then I was thinking I went back to school in my early 30's ... studied hard and only on my two days off....and have done well through hard work. I'm a type of person if I have my mindset on something I would do my best however it all goes back to the two signal exams Where you have to get 100% on each. Makes me wonder how it's possible. I also do think about the fact that we are also getting hands-on training at the same time so maybe is not the same as going back to school and possibly able to get 100% with school car instructors as well as studying on your own.

[MTAhopefullMatt]

Practical exams are very different than signals exams. You'll probably do fine on both.

Overall I would recommend proceeding from conductor to train operator rather than T/O open-competitive, based on the stress of learning all this new stuff (like a new language) off the street, with the constant worry about being fired. But plenty have succeeded where I failed. The other B division class kept every person - no one quit or failed.

[wyndnfire8]

Practical exams are very different than signals exams. You'll probably do fine on both.

Overall I would recommend proceeding from conductor to train operator rather than T/O open-competitive, based on the stress of learning all this new stuff (like a new language) off the street, with the constant worry about being fired. But plenty have succeeded where I failed. The other B division class kept every person - no one quit or failed.

Thank you again....I totally agree with the whole new language factor as well. I strongly feel from conductor and to possible TO in the future is the way to go for obvious reasons mentioned in previous posts....everyones situation is different....jus can't shake the feeling of what if I don't try for TO and school car.... I just won't know unless i try....:..So leaves me in the state of mind I am in because right now I make about $50,000 a year at 35 hours a week and I have a family to support. My company is selling n once were sold then the new owners have a choice to continue keeping the business the way it is or buying out and giving us a severance package.... Bottom line if I continue with the train operator process and get into school car then I'm leaving my dead - end job n severance package for school car in which no guarantee I will succeed in and take the chance of being jobless if I don't succeed at school car..... Or what if during school car.... I get called in to start conductors processing.....if that were to happen than I would have to see how far I am with school car and whether at least 1 signal test passed and done to make that decision. Not sure because i am pretty sure if I get called to start conductor processing, they would not excuse me out of a training day to attend any ther position....I have thought every possible angles and yes I have nothing to lose right now, except a severance at my current job, but that's ok as long as I know and feel confident to get my foot in the door with MTA...question still is whether it would be TO or CR....

[SubwayGuy]

Always take all tests.

 

As for the second part (can you be hired for a new title while still in training for a different one). This question comes up frequently and I've answered it numerous times here over the years, but unfortunately it is usually found in another thread about something else, after pages and pages of discussion, when it is finally asked (again).
Hopefully now that it's been asked in its own thread, I can just link (and quote) this post here, and the answer will be easier to find in the future.:

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/31046-to-exam-8098/page-543?do=findComment&comment=852828
 
 
 

OK here is THE final definitive answer (again) since people are still going back and forth about this issue.

As PATCOman said, you can be hired off an open competitive C/R list and and (later) an open competitive T/O list, and have it be treated similar to a promotion. If you don't like it, fail a signal exam, can't stop overrunning stations or signals, or otherwise decide or are forced out of the T/O title, you absolutely 1000% have the option of going back provided you do so within your first year as a T/O, and that you passed probation as a C/R before you accepted appointment to T/O. This is all covered under RULE 9B in the first chapter of your rulebook, read it.

There is only once circumstance where promotion may actually backfire on an employee. It is difficult to explain but I will try. That is when the following happens:

-Employee in eligible title takes a promotional exam (#1 we'll call it).
-Employee in eligible title takes a second promotional exam (#2 we'll call it).
-Employee accepts promotion from exam #1 to new title. Their previous title was eligible for exam #2, but the new title they gained by being promoted from exam #1 is not.
-Employee is called from exam #2. In order to accept promotion to the title from exam #2, they must first accept an on paper demotion back to their original title since their new title from exam #1 is not eligible to promote to the title from exam #2.

In this exact circumstance, if the employee resigns or is demoted out of their title from exam #2, they would be ineligible to return to the title earned from exam #1 since they would have to return to their "previous title" in such an instance.

Case in point: Conductor takes the tower operator and train operator exams. Gets promoted to train operator, then called for tower operator. Since train operator does not promote to tower operator, if this person decides they want to be a tower operator, they will have to accept an on paper demotion back to conductor to go to tower operator. If they don't make it as a tower operator, they would then go back to conductor, and cannot go back to train operator.

The only other situation where someone can get hurt taking a promotion is if they do not complete probation in an eligible title.

Case in point: Cleaner promotes to conductor, then is hired open competitive as a train operator before completing conductor probation. If they can't make it as a train operator, they would go back to cleaner, not conductor, since they never completed probation as a conductor.

REMEMBER: These rules are specifically designed so they don't discourage people from taking promotions. However, the promotional lines must be adhered to at all times, and you must pass probation to establish permanent status in any title.

[SubwayGuy]

Also for reference...promotional lines:

 

The following titles are represented by TWU Local 100:

 

C/R (Conductor)

=============

Promoted from:

S/A (Station Agent)

CTA (Cleaner - TA)

Track Cleaner

PP/A (Property Protection Agent)

Collection Agent

Hired from outside "Open Competitive"

 

TW/O (Tower Operator)

===================

Promoted from:

C/R (Conductor)

S/A (Station Agent)

Electrical Helper (Signals Dept.)

 

T/O (Train Operator)

================

Promoted from:

C/R (Conductor)

TW/O (Tower Operator)

B/O (Bus Operator)

Hired from outside "Open Competitive"

 

The following titles are classified as supervision and belong to the SSSA union.

 

ATD (Assistant Train Dispatcher)

==========================

Promoted from:

C/R (Conductor)

S/A (Station Agent)

Collection Agent

 

T/D (Train Dispatcher)

==================

Promoted from:
TW/O (Tower Operator)

ATD (Assistant Train Dispatcher)

T/O (Train Operator)

 

TSS (Train Service Supervisor)

=========================

Promoted from:
T/O (Train Operator)

T/D (Train Dispatcher), but must have at least 2 years experience as a Train Operator in his/her work resume

[tprashad0719]

i honestly can say  from my own experience  after resigning from school car 15 weeks into it..it wasnt for me..dont get me wrong its not a bad job but the scheduling and training process i can say its horrible..from the beginning they will put that fear in you regarding practicals and signal exams..people get scared and just drop out and go back to there old jobs or just get nervous and fail..happen to a few of my classmates..we started at 11 and 3 is now fighting to finish..after speaking to a lot of T/O they would tell me they regret leaving conductor....if they call me for conductor i might do that for a little while and then become a flagger...or i might just try to become a CI or RCI 

[SubwayGuy]

T/O is still a good job. It used to be a great job. It's not for everyone.

 

Which is why I provide the info I do. Always leave yourself an out, in case it isn't for you.

[MTAhopefullMatt]

Well said, TPrashad and SubwayGuy.

 

I blame myself for failing out of the T/O training program - my nerves got to me.

I agree with TPrashad, it's an absolutely punishing, brutal training program that most people who aren't already in Transit or have buddies/family recently in the program are probably not prepared for. It's especially challenging if you have small children or other family obligations.

 

In my class 3 remain out of ten who started, and two of the original people quit to go back to their old jobs. The two who quit would likely have made fine T/Os, as would have at least two of those who failed the program.

 

In speaking to experienced T/Os it seems like it can be a very good job once you're 3-4 years in. The challenge is completing the training program and then learning the system and paying your dues until you have the seniority to get a posting that you like and that's a manageable commute from your home.

[SubwayGuy]

Everything worth having is worth fighting for and working hard to attain.

 

If you have a good family they will understand.

 

A few years to pay off for good benefits, a defined benefit pension, and the ability to pick your own work assignments for the rest of your career is not a common thing in the workplace anymore. Never mind that you're in a recession proof job.

 

In the private sector, for most people, the "paying your dues" period never ends. At least at Transit, you get improved working conditions at the end of it.