MTA's Poor Priorities

[B35 via Church]

When you say most of the Junction Parking lot was empty were you looking at the short term or long term parking areas? If it was the short term ones, they might have been under utilized because they were overpriced. Perhaps $6 a day plus the subway fare was just too expensive when express bus was cheaper. The MTA claims there are no ads inside buses because no one wants to advertise inside a bus. Perhaps they are overpriced also. There is always a market for anything if the price is right.

 

You may have misunderstood me. I wasn't saying there is much park and ride in the city. I was saying the demand is high but many are not doing it because there are virtually no park and ride spaces in the city and on street parking is also limited in most areas near subways especially near express stops. The reason I mentioned the LIRR was because they do have the lots and they are well utilized. There are places in the city where they would work just as well.

 

As for the MTA's shuttles, I am critical of them because none are doing as well as the B71 that was discontinued. And if they wanted them to work, they would design them to work, not to terminate them several blocks from major bus connections. The B67 extension falls short of the B32 by about a block. All the MTA was concerned about was saving a bus.

 

The B51 was originally proposed to operate from Grand Army Plaza to Lower Manhattan where there would have been great demand. But the MTA instead chose a shuttle over the bridge and it ultimately failed. The B71 would have great demand through the Carey Tunnel, but the MTA doesn't want successful routes where they will have to run extra service to support that demand. They only want to falsely give the impression they are changing services to meet demand. That's why they are running the shuttles.

I'm referring to the entire lot... From during my preteen years (the early 90's) all the way up until they started construction for the triangle junction shopping ctr, that lot stayed virtually empty.... I'd give it about 20-30 vehicles max., the amount of vehicles I've seen in there at any one time..... I used to frequent this hobby shop a lot (called Bulletproof Comics, right as you come up from the southern-most stairwell of the subway), and even then as a kid, I never understood why that lot was so big, yet it never came close to being full.....

 

I can tell you this much though... I have personally never seen anyone come up from the subway to head to that lot & drive off.... The little usage it did get, seemed like it came from local shoppers around the junction....

 

I understand you were stating your case as far as demand goes (which was well afterwards).... Before those statements ever came about though, you started off your initial reply to me in this discussion saying that many ppl. all over the city park on unsecured streets to take the subway.... While you may have been honing in more on the "unsecured streets" part to argue/state your case, I honed in on the "many people all over the city" part.... That's where I gave your post the side-eye (so to speak) & said to myself, what is this guy talking about... At that point, the unsecured streets part of the statement went to the wayside/became irrelevant.... I had to address that P&R-ing to the subway bit first, then I would have delved into the feeling weary about parking in (Riis, or any other unsecured) lot, part of it.... I personally don't see it as a misunderstanding, but now that you've explained yourself.....

 

I don't disagree with your assessment of why the MTA started up these dinky shuttles, but at the same same, I do believe they believe that these routes will end up being successful over time.... Whether said success (quote-unquote) would be from people already residing in the respective areas of these new shuttles, or from forecasted communal growth (via urban renewal, gentrification, etc), leading to increased usage on these buses....

[B35 via Church]

So we should create parking lots AND bus routes on the premise that some might be encouraged?  Aren't you the same guy that complained about express buses?? 

This train of thought, I agree with....

 

 

This one however, I can't....

.....Not that many people even live in the Rockaways. Why are we throwing money at transit in areas that fundamentally cannot support those kinds of service levels? There's already the subway, the bus, and then there's going to be the fifth or so ferry line to the Rockaways even though it has never pencilled out before. 

While I don't side with this whole park & riding for a local bus-to-the-subway bit of BrooklynBus', I don't agree with what's being implicated here either.... It looks like your core belief as far as travel to/from the Rockaways is concerned, is that it is adequate and on top of it, isn't deserving of any improvements to it.... I'm not saying that's what you're literally saying, but that's how it kinda comes off....

[BrooklynBus]

I'm referring to the entire lot... From during my preteen years (the early 90's) all the way up until they started construction for the triangle junction shopping ctr, that lot stayed virtually empty.... I'd give it about 20-30 vehicles max., the amount of vehicles I've seen in there at any one time..... I used to frequent this hobby shop a lot (called Bulletproof Comics, right as you come up from the southern-most stairwell of the subway), and even then as a kid, I never understood why that lot was so big, yet it never came close to being full.....

 

I can tell you this much though... I have personally never seen anyone come up from the subway to head to that lot & drive off.... The little usage it did get, seemed like it came from local shoppers around the junction....

 

I understand you were stating your case as far as demand goes (which was well afterwards)y.... Before those statements ever came about though, you started off your initial reply to me in this discussion saying that many ppl. all over the city park on unsecured streets to take the subway.... While you may have been honing in more on the "unsecured streets" part to argue/state your case, I honed in on the "many people all over the city" part.... That's where I gave your post the side-eye (so to speak) & said to myself, what is this guy talking about... At that point, the unsecured streets part of the statement went to the wayside/became irrelevant.... I had to address that P&R-ing to the subway bit first, then I would have delved into the feeling weary about parking in (Riis, or any other unsecured) lot, part of it.... I personally don't see it as a misunderstanding, but now that you've explained yourself.....

 

I don't disagree with your assessment of why the MTA started up these dinky shuttles, but at the same same, I do believe they believe that these routes will end up being successful over time.... Whether said success (quote-unquote) would be from people already residing in the respective areas of these new shuttles, or from forecasted communal growth (via urban renewal, gentrification, etc), leading to increased usage on these buses....

You are obviously more familiar with the Junction Parking lot than I am but you did not answer my question regarding long term vs short term parking. From what I have seen elsewhere two thirds or more of these lots are allocated to short term parking of three hours or less. So when you say most of the lot was empty are you talking about the short term spaces, the long term ones, or both? Or did you not bother distinguishing between the two? When I look at the Sheepshead Bay lot, I also see many empty spaces. But when I look closely, it is always the short term spaces that are empty and the long term ones are always all taken. And it is the merchants who insist that most spaces be short term even if it makes more sense to change the split and allowing more commuter parking. So I can't fault DOT for that.

 

Also, if many long term spaces are unoccupied, the problem is the price being charged, not the lack of demand. But in Sheepshead Bay people are willing to pay $8 a day to park and ride because as I said, the 20 long term spaces are all gone by 7 AM. They may even be willing to pay in Riis Park but I didn't suggest that because there is no subway there.

 

The bus shuttles may succeed in time but why not integrate them better into the existing system and run them more often? Yes I know it would cost more money. But revenue potential needs to be considered also.

 

As far as BobtehPanda, I fully agree with your assessment of how he is coming off.

[B35 via Church]

You are obviously more familiar with the Junction Parking lot than I am but you did not answer my question regarding long term vs short term parking. From what I have seen elsewhere two thirds or more of these lots are allocated to short term parking of three hours or less. So when you say most of the lot was empty are you talking about the short term spaces, the long term ones, or both? Or did you not bother distinguishing between the two? When I look at the Sheepshead Bay lot, I also see many empty spaces. But when I look closely, it is always the short term spaces that are empty and the long term ones are always all taken. And it is the merchants who insist that most spaces be short term even if it makes more sense to change the split and allowing more commuter parking. So I can't fault DOT for that.

 

Also, if many long term spaces are unoccupied, the problem is the price being charged, not the lack of demand. But in Sheepshead Bay people are willing to pay $8 a day to park and ride because as I said, the 20 long term spaces are all gone by 7 AM. They may even be willing to pay in Riis Park but I didn't suggest that because there is no subway there.

 

The bus shuttles may succeed in time but why not integrate them better into the existing system and run them more often? Yes I know it would cost more money. But revenue potential needs to be considered also.

 

As far as BobtehPanda, I fully agree with your assessment of how he is coming off.

Never bothered to distinguish between the two, nor did I really have to....

 

The issue is not that I didn't answer your question.... If I'm telling you I'm referring to the entire lot, what difference would it have made to stand there and analyze the long term parking area vs. the short term parking area..... It wasn't a case of [one section of the lot being full (or close to it)] & [another section being empty], so therefore, since one smaller area of the lot being near or literally full vs. most of the lot being empty, I'm concluding that the lot was empty.... It wasn't comparable to the situation at the Sheepshead lot (I know that lot gets consistent usage).... I'd go as far as to say that lot that used to exist by the junction felt like you were in a ghost town just simply walking through it - No matter what time of the day it was....

 

The issue is quite apparent that you're trying to fight tooth & nail to try to rationalize why that lot was as empty as it was.... You might or may care, but I didn't & don't care who's "fault" it was for the lack of usage of that lot, spanning over the course of almost 2 decades (that I can attest to).... My issue is not what the DOT did or didn't do, nor do I particularly blame people for not using the lot - Especially for the specific purpose of parking & riding for Flatbush av subway... I say that it's good that they propped up Triangle Junction in the place of that old lot.....

 

That question of yours regarding the dinky shuttles, is suggestive of some defense I might have for the MTA having came out with them... I'm not defending why the routes were half ass integrated into the bus system.... I'm actually the person that wants them gone.... The B32's siphoning ridership from the B62 (The MTA might, but I wouldn't exactly dub that as success), The M12 is seeing most the usage b/w [Jane st & Chelsea piers] & [along 57th st], The B84 is largely taken as an alternate to the B6 (south of Cozine, the route is doing much worse off), The Bx46 (which has seen the least growth b/w 2014 & 2015) sees most of its usage at & west of Southern; a 6-7 block span at best.... I don't think I need to say much more....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

While I don't side with this whole park & riding for a local bus-to-the-subway bit of BrooklynBus', I don't agree with what's being implicated here either.... It looks like your core belief as far as travel to/from the Rockaways is concerned, is that it is adequate and on top of it, isn't deserving of any improvements to it.... I'm not saying that's what you're literally saying, but that's how it kinda comes off....

I certainly have no problem saying that's what he's saying.  lol 

[BrooklynBus]

Never bothered to distinguish between the two, nor did I really have to....

 

The issue is not that I didn't answer your question.... If I'm telling you I'm referring to the entire lot, what difference would it have made to stand there and analyze the long term parking area vs. the short term parking area..... It wasn't a case of [one section of the lot being full (or close to it)] & [another section being empty], so therefore, since one smaller area of the lot being near or literally full vs. most of the lot being empty, I'm concluding that the lot was empty.... It wasn't comparable to the situation at the Sheepshead lot (I know that lot gets consistent usage).... I'd go as far as to say that lot that used to exist by the junction felt like you were in a ghost town just simply walking through it - No matter what time of the day it was....

 

The issue is quite apparent that you're trying to fight tooth & nail to try to rationalize why that lot was as empty as it was.... You might or may care, but I didn't & don't care who's "fault" it was for the lack of usage of that lot, spanning over the course of almost 2 decades (that I can attest to).... My issue is not what the DOT did or didn't do, nor do I particularly blame people for not using the lot - Especially for the specific purpose of parking & riding for Flatbush av subway... I say that it's good that they propped up Triangle Junction in the place of that old lot.....

 

That question of yours regarding the dinky shuttles, is suggestive of some defense I might have for the MTA having came out with them... I'm not defending why the routes were half ass integrated into the bus system.... I'm actually the person that wants them gone.... The B32's siphoning ridership from the B62 (The MTA might, but I wouldn't exactly dub that as success), The M12 is seeing most the usage b/w [Jane st & Chelsea piers] & [along 57th st], The B84 is largely taken as an alternate to the B6 (south of Cozine, the route is doing much worse off), The Bx46 (which has seen the least growth b/w 2014 & 2015) sees most of its usage at & west of Southern; a 6-7 block span at best.... I don't think I need to say much more....

It looks like we agree about the MTA bus shuttles, but I really don't understand why you have to so hostile in discussing the parking lot.

 

If the lot was underutilized as you believe, then I would have preferred that either part of or the entire lot have been converted to an off street bus terminal to help relieve traffic congestion instead of new development in an already congested area. Our city leaders apparently feel that every single parcel be developed and the only open spaces should be parks and cemeteries. Then they are the first ones to complain about traffic congestion instead of trying to find ways to relieve it that doesn't involve charging drivers more.

[B35 via Church]

It looks like we agree about the MTA bus shuttles, but I really don't understand why you have to so hostile in discussing the parking lot.

 

If the lot was underutilized as you believe, then I would have preferred that either part of or the entire lot have been converted to an off street bus terminal to help relieve traffic congestion instead of new development in an already congested area. Our city leaders apparently feel that every single parcel be developed and the only open spaces should be parks and cemeteries. Then they are the first ones to complain about traffic congestion instead of trying to find ways to relieve it that doesn't involve charging drivers more.

Lol.... For as large as that lot was especially, it was clearly underutilized - anyone that's frequented the junction between the early 90's & right before the construction of that shopping plaza would also tell you as such (if they're being honest anyway).... My vehemency is stemming from an undertone I'm sensing from your replies....

 

Aside from that..... Yeah, I would have liked to have seen it carved into a terminal also (Just to be clear - I wasn't saying/implicating that space had to be a shopping ctr., but I do favor the the shopping ctr. being there, instead of a lot barely anyone used)... B11 getting from its layover spot to the first pickup stop, I find to be time consuming... Even though the Q35's terminal situation around the junction drastically improved since the days of GBL, I still would favor some sort of off street terminal for it, about the area..... The B103 short turns would also benefit from it obviously....

[BrooklynBus]

Lol.... For as large as that lot was especially, it was clearly underutilized - anyone that's frequented the junction between the early 90's & right before the construction of that shopping plaza would also tell you as such (if they're being honest anyway).... My vehemency is stemming from an undertone I'm sensing from your replies....

 

Aside from that..... Yeah, I would have liked to have seen it carved into a terminal also (Just to be clear - I wasn't saying/implicating that space had to be a shopping ctr., but I do favor the the shopping ctr. being there, instead of a lot barely anyone used)... B11 getting from its layover spot to the first pickup stop, I find to be time consuming... Even though the Q35's terminal situation around the junction drastically improved since the days of GBL, I still would favor some sort of off street terminal for it, about the area..... The B103 short turns would also benefit from it obviously....

I don't think there is any room left for a terminal.

[GojiMet86]

Actually, if the market on Nostrand is torn down, there might be enough space for a terminal. Or you could make an elevated platform over the Bay Ridge LIRR on Nostrand in between Avenue H and Avenue I. Buses would travel on Avenue H and turn unto that Campus Road (Brooklyn College might have to move down the security checkpoint further west), and into the terminal. Pulling out, they would head on Nostrand (the Q35 heading down south directly, instead of what I drew).